Need Advice - At a Critical Point - Do I CCNP or Not?

Alexf302

I'm looking for some advice from those with experience in the industry and/or from those who may have been in a similar situation to the one that I'm in currently.

To be as brief as possible, I worked in IT professionally from 1998-2004. Since then I found myself on a different career path that has taken me out of professional IT pretty much entirely.

I'm fortunate to be working for a good company in a stable position, but I really miss IT and the opportunities that it offered, so I've recently been looking at what sort of jobs are out there. To help counteract my lack of current experience, I decided to study for the CCNA, which I passed last spring. This has been helpful in gaining the interest of prospective employers. However, the jobs available for a CCNA + no recent experience are generally pretty entry-level in my area (Philadelphia, PA region).

I simply can't afford a job in that category. To be frank, for me to leave my current position I would require a permanent position with benefits, and a salary of no less than $68,000. Certainly the entry level stuff is not at that level. Hence, I've been giving thought to going for the CCNP, but being as it's quite a different animal from the CCNA, I have some concerns:

• The CCNA was a large and difficult time commitment. Working full-time, and having several responsibilities at home made it challenging to study consistently. Wouldn't the CCNP require a far greater time commitment?
• I don't work with Cisco or any networking technology at my job. This was manageable with the CCNA, but if I'm not living and breathing Cisco during the day, is the CCNP going to be just too darn difficult to grasp without supreme levels of studying?
• The financial commitment is certainly larger. I'm looking at $3k+ for suitable lab equipment alone, and I'm not even sure where I'd install the stuff. Certainly my wife wouldn't be thrilled at having to look at a rack of Cisco gear on a daily basis.

So essentially, my struggle is: would it be worth it in the end? I enjoyed the challenge of the CCNA and I am very proud to have achieved it. If it never does anything to help advance my career, then that's okay. On the other hand, if I commit to the CCNP, I would need to see a pretty solid return on my investment by the end. Sure, I'm not expecting a high-paying job to just land in front of me, but I'd need to know that one that meets my salary requirements would be well within reach at that point.

If I could take a step back and work my way up from a more entry-level spot with my CCNA in hand and a CCNP on the horizon, that'd be one thing. But the reality is that I can't, and because of that I feel like my window of opportunity for working in professional IT again may be pretty much closed.

So what do you think? Should I take the plunge and do the CCNP thing, or would I find job prospects to be not much better than they are now? I simply can't dedicate the time to it if that would be the case.

And If I *am* doing it, it would need to be soon. If my CCNA knowledge becomes too stale, then all is certainly lost.

Thanks in advance for any help!

lsud00d

The common denominator is the lack of experience at this point and I don't think even a CCIE could help you...it's unfortunate but life.

Best bet is to get an entry-level networking job with the CCNA and in the course of a year (or two) get as much experience as possible, complete the CCNP, and then try to look for a better paying job.

NetworkVeteran

Alexf302 wrote: »

To be as brief as possible, Since then I found myself on a different career path that has taken me out of professional IT

A mid-life career change, unless to a closely related field, generally involves taking a hit to your income.

I worked in IT professionally from 1998-2004. However, the jobs available for a CCNA + no recent experience are generally pretty entry-level in my area (Philadelphia, PA region). The CCNA was a large and difficult time commitment.

What were you doing in IT before? If you found the CCNA a "large and difficult time commitment", it stands to reason your experience was either unrelated to networking or entry-level. If your networking skill are entry-level, you're looking at entry-level pay. A certification sets you apart from other entry-level candidates. It doesn't make you intermediate-level.

You have a chance of recouping whatever you made in IT before, if you interview for a similar position. I'd even lookup some of your old buddies if they'd vouch that you were good at what you did.

Now, a BS in Eletrical Engineering or Computer Science plus that CCNA would certainly be a way to go beyond that salary point you mentioned, even if you have zero experience in networking.

Wouldn't the CCNP require a far greater time commitment?

Yup, far greater.

Is the CCNP going to be just too darn difficult to grasp without supreme levels of studying? So essentially, my struggle is: would it be worth it in the end?

Most pass eventually, but it won't give you much of a bump in your entry-level salary.

The financial commitment is certainly larger. I'm looking at $3k+ for suitable lab equipment alone, and I'm not even sure where I'd install the stuff. Certainly my wife wouldn't be thrilled at having to look at a rack of Cisco gear on a daily basis.

I used GNS3 for free, and rented a few hours of rack time on switches. If you choose to spend $3,000 on gear, that has more to do with your preferences than the requirements for the certification. Real or simulated, it doesn't matter.

Alexf302

What were you doing in IT before? If you found the CCNA a "large and difficult time commitment", it stands to reason your experience was either unrelated to networking or entry-level.

My experience included networking, and in fact I took the CCNA in 2003 and passed it without too much trouble. I would consider the newer curriculum and exam to be well beyond what was considered entry-level when I was working in the field.

PCHoldmann

Without experience, or with significantly outdated experience, the cert isn't going to do miracles for you. On the other hand, having the cert, and the work that goes into gaining it, will not hurt while looking for a job.

I would probably consider starting down the road to CCNP, using GNS3 as much as possible, and use that to help you in your job search.

Unfortunately, as has been said, a career change at this time is probably going to involve a salary hit.

Scales

As has already been stating changing careers will generally impact your income. Start studying for the CCNP - do ROUTE first - most if not all the labs in that exam can be done in GNS3 which you can get for free with an IOS (if you know where to look).

As for study time the only thing I can recommend to you is either get up a little earlier in the morning and read before you go to work. If you catch public transport to and from work then this is a good time to do reading.

MrBrian

To answer your question, you always CCNP

vinbuck

CCNP opened a number of doors for me but i'm 14 years into an IT career with 4 of those years working in large and complex networks as a network engineer and then a lead network engineer.

I would encourage you to try to get the CCNP, even with a lack of experience, and work on finding a job where they might take a chance on you - I was fortunate to land a job with a Service Provider (with very little network experience) and it was the best move I ever made (next to getting my CCNP).

Be realistic...finding the job you are looking for is going to take serious time and effort.

BackToSchool

Alexf302, I am in a similar situation to you. I got an IT Support role back in 1998 but moved into cellular handset development / conformance testing in 2000. At the time a good move, in hindsight not so great. I tried to get back into an IT role with no success about two years ago with just experience of Windows NT and Exchange 5.5 and Novell Netware, all of which are now completely obsolete.

I studied for a CCNA whilst working full time, tried to get a job with just that; which got me nowhere. In the end I have taken a year off work (resigned) and enrolled in a self-study program with a local education provider. I am working towards Network+, Project+, Windows 7 Configuration, Windows Server 2008 R2 and Exchange Server and to a lesser extent Linux, SQL and Virtualization; an internship is also included, all in the hope that will make me more employable.

I know it is hard times for ever one but if you can afford it may be taking some time off work and studying towards a number of qualifications may help. From the prospective of getting it all done relevantly quickly could be another angle. I am blessed with a VERY understanding girl friend and no kids.

I live in New Zealand but I am sure there must be a similar organization in Philadelphia.

Unfortunately a pay cut will be inevitable but the pay will jump up with experience. Does your current job have any cross skills that could be used in the IT world, Technical Sales or Project Management for example?

GNS3 is a very affordable solution.

Good luck

Alexf302

Thank you for your responses, everyone. At this point, I am leaning towards going for the CCNP.

If I set up a suitable lab (mix of GNS3 and real hardware), how much more difficult might the NP be to study for than the NA given that I don't work with this stuff at my job? Labbing helped tremendously with the NA, so would it be sufficient for getting me through the NP without significantly more difficulty? I've seen some say that the NP is much more difficult without true real world experience and I've heard that with a good lab setup and proper time spent on it, one could certainly make up for the lack of experience. Which is more accurate?

Any other thoughts and/or opinions on my overall situation would be very welcomed as well.

Thanks again!

NetworkVeteran

I've seen some say that the NP is much more difficult without true real world experience and I've heard that with a good lab setup and proper time spent on it, one could certainly make up for the lack of experience. Which is more accurate?

I've met several zero-experience CCNPs. It's an achievable goal, it just requires more time. For most, the deterrants will be that listing it on your resume won't significantly increase your hiring/salary prospects. At the same time, it won't make you unhirable. We actually hired a minimal-experience CCNP this year. We usually don't hire those types, but besides his degree, this one was ammenable to entry-level (w/degree) pay and role until he has a year or two of experience under his belt to back it up.

boobobobobob

I don't think you'll have problems finding a job if you get your CCNP without experience... you just won't be making very much $ at first.

Alexf302

Let me shift gears temporarily.

What kind of salary could one reasonably expect to start with in the Philadelphia region with a no-recent-experience CCNP? After one year? Two years?

Node Man

Alexf302 wrote: »

Let me shift gears temporarily.

What kind of salary could one reasonably expect to start with in the Philadelphia region with a no-recent-experience CCNP? After one year? Two years?

I live in the Philly area and from what I see, a CCNP alone, might get you many more interviews than a CCNA or nothing, but it alone might not make you compeditive against a CCNA with experience. I think the CCNP range around here is going to be very wide, if you were given an offer, perhaps from $50k to $80k.

But a larger issue in my mind, is that your CCNA is a year old now, with 2 years left to expire. Your CCNA may expire before you are ready for, or pass, the 3 tests of the CCNP.

If i were you, i would get any experience at all, if you could, even a 2nd shift NOC job for a few weeks. Something, anything that could take up space on your resume. Go check in with Robert Half Technology down on Market Street

Just my 2 cents.

FloOz

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

Now, a BS in Eletrical Engineering or Computer Science plus that CCNA would certainly be a way to go beyond that salary point you mentioned, even if you have zero experience in networking.

I wish this were true I have a degree and CCNA and am not making 68k

Ps- I am in the Phila area and just got my first networking gig and am making in the low 50s. I am fresh outta school though with only a year of full time experience as a desktop engineer.

Also I say yes go for your CCNP, when I was interviewing for jobs the employers were very impressed with my dedication to learn even though I didn't have the "real world" networking experience.

NetworkVeteran

Alexf302 wrote: »

What kind of salary could one reasonably expect to start with in the Philadelphia region with a no-recent-experience CCNP? After one year? Two years?

In any region, it's going to be similar to the no-experience CCNA rate, because once you're certified at that level, it's the experience/education not the certification that's holding you back. Maybe +$2,500 if you're good at negotiating.

(I just mentioned we hired on a minimal-experience CCNP at the no-experience CCNA rate, although it did help him outcompete the next closest candidate, a zero-experience CCNA who I suspect also would have done well at the entry-level.)

NetworkVeteran

FloOz wrote: »

I wish this were true I have a degree and CCNA and am not making 68k Ps- I am in the Phila area and just got my first networking gig and am making in the low 50s.

My current and many past employers routinely hire people with those qualifications for ~$70,000. I note your area has a -$14,000 cost of living, which mostly explains the differential. That'd make the corresponding wage $56,000 in your area.

That does makes prospects look dim for the OP finding an entry-level $70,000 position in Philly.

FloOz

Well I guess I am making about average for my area. Which is good I'd say since I have only just begun my networking career

instant000

I would suggest seeking out IT jobs within your current field, if that makes any sense.

If you work in accounting, find IT jobs related to accounting.
If you work in healthcare, look for IT jobs at healthcare providers.

Have no idea of what field you're in (unless you posted that somewhere and I missed it).

Hope this helps.

wintermute000

Its possible and you will almost certainly benefit from it. I say go for it in your spare time. If its what you want to do then go hard. You'll still run into the no experience barrier but oddly as you're older that's a huge benefit in the eyes of many employers (maturity, people skills, etc). Why do you say you can't dedicate the time? what else would you be doing with downtime? Is say 8 hours a week studying impossible to accomodate? My dad still rants at me for being lazy all the time and how he used to feed baby me with one hand whilst studying for his XYZ with the other (on top of his day job lol). 8 hours a week for a year = 416 hours, lets be conservative and say 2 years = 832 hours.....

3k for lab you gotta be joking. You could do it for under a grand (just buy physical switches, use GNS3 for routing. Or just grab old and nasty gear like 26XXs and 355Xs, if you do that easily under 500!).

The only thing I'd say is if you found CCNA difficult then you may want to reconsider.

Danielh22185

I would also say go for the NP. If anything you are going to broaden your knowledge of networks by studying for NP. You may not have the experience but I think your fundamental knowledge will be greater than that of a CCNA with no experience. You never know where the CCNP will land you until you start trying too. We just hired on a guy with a CCNP but zero real world experience. To estimate he should be making around 50-60k. It may still require a bit of a pay cut for you adjusting. You will just have to evaluate if you can take that cut right now.

djfunz

wintermute000 wrote: »

Or just grab old and nasty gear like 26XXs and 355Xs, if you do that easily under 500!).

Exactly this. 26XXs and 355Xs are the way to go. I was kinda shocked how clueless I originally was when I first started working with physical gear. What all the modules are. How to connect cables. Visiting a data center can also be initially overwhelming. Get the real gear if you're studying for the CCNP. Packet Tracer and GNS3 are good for the CCNA and if you already have experience racking and stacking.

Alexf302

I decided to go for it.

I've been reading the FLG for ROUTE and using GNS3 for lab purposes. I'll pick up some inexpensive gear when it's time for SWITCH. So far I am finding it much more enjoyable than the CCNA. I feel like I am getting information that's much more applicable to the real-world. With the CCNA only, I wouldn't have felt terribly comfortable in being thrown into a new job, whereas I can imagine feeling much more confident and well equipped with a CCNP. Even with my lack of recent experience, there is no way that an honestly-obtained CCNP wouldn't be a huge help to me in a technical interview and in performing duties for a real job, so my worries about whether this will all be worthwhile have been greatly reduced.

Also, despite the much increased complexity as compared to the CCNA, in many ways I'm finding the CCNP material easier to grasp. The foundational stuff in the CCNA can be pretty daunting and frustrating to master at first, but with that behind me, the CCNP material has been sinking in more easily than I anticipated and I'm really having fun with it.

Thanks again for all of your thoughts and advice.

FloOz

I felt the same way @Alexf302 when I first started studying Route (I used the FLG book as well). Trust me its gets worse lol

Pippen

Hi there, may i know what school did u went to when u had your ccna here in new zealand? I'm planning on taking ccna certification this February. I had a degree in Computer science in the Philippines but had no experience in the IT industry since i worked for 6yrs in a bank.. If ever i pass the exam, is there a demand for ccna passers here in NZ? Pls advise on what course of action to take..

theodoxa

1. You can build a lab for a lot less than $3,000 even if you use all hardware (no GNS3 or CSR-1000V). The devices I used for CCNP would cost about $800 - 1000, including the rack. I paid a little more than that, but prices have come down a little since then. I used 5 Cisco 1841 routers and 4 Layer 3 switches (3560/3750).

2. I would say you'll probably spend about the same length of time studying for each of the two primary tests (ROUTE and SWITCH) as you spent on CCNA. I can't speak for the new TSHOOTv2, but TSHOOTv1 really didn't require any specific studying beyond what you learned in ROUTE and SWITCH. I would suggest labbing the technologies (OSPF, OSPFv3, EIGRP, EIGRPv6, RIPng, GRE, VTP, VTPv3, etc...) together in a single topology. I used the TSHOOTv1 topology which Cisco released to the public. They haven't released a topology for TSHOOTv2, but you could always just use the old topology and insert the new technologies.

JeanM

back from 2013 lol

Danman32

I subscribed to Cisco Learning Center Premium year subscription, which includes 900 hours of lab time and training videos. Cost me about $450. Granted the labs are fixed configurations as opposed to GNS3 that you can configure how you want, but so far they were helpful. Been dumping the topology, initial router configs, supporting web based documentation so I could re-work it offline on GNS3 or even just read through it. So far only been doing Routev2 with the labs, but gained quite a bit from them. The challenge labs are cool, where you are given a situation that you have to solve.
I could probably go through all the labs including the CCNA labs, and not dent the 900 hours available. Only used up 10 hours so far, estimate maybe another 10 to complete route. Factor 3x for switch and tshoot and that's only 60 hours used.
CBTNuggets year subscription cost me a whole lot more than that.