Ridiculous job offers

Hi guys,

I know everyone is aware of the problem that companies are looking to hire people with experience and there is no place you can get that experience. However, I want to share with you something that made me laugh:

This is an ad for a JUNIOR network admin:
Successful applicants must have the following minimum qualifications:
• Four-year degree
• Minimum 3 years experience

Another one for JUNIOR pen testers:
Required minimum qualifications:
• Four-year degree
• Minimum 3 years experience
• Experience in vulnerability identification and remediation
• Solid network penetration testing experience

There were others but these are the stranger requirements. Funny thing is that there are a lot more(really a lot) where those came from.Sadly the majority of entry and junior level positions are like this.Am I the only one who thinks this is crazy or am I totally unaware of the definition of Junior? There are adequate ads by HP, for example, that require CCNA or at least trained half through CCNA, for junior level jobs but they are few and far between.

Is it like this everywhere or just in some areas?

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Comments

dave330i

There was a job posting for a Jr. Cloud admin while back. One of the desired cert was VCDX. There were less than 100 of them in the world at the time.

xe3tec

I can speak for Austria/Germany, its the same there. They want multitalent geniuses with 5y+ experience for some shitty jobs...its nearly impossible to find a classic Junior position.

sratakhin

They just want people with experience but let you know that the pay will be more appropriate for a junior position.

JasonP03

I've seen ads like these too while looking for a summer internship. At least in Canada, there are NO IT security oriented internships, they all seem to be for developers or tech support. This is frightening though, considering when I leave university I'll likely have no experience.

zipolini

It's the same here in Poland, almost impossible to get helpdesk job without master degree, ideally couple of years experience and knowing Windows Server, AD etc. Another thing is how much they offer here for your job, usually it's something like $9000-10000 a year for helpdesk, while prices are like everywhere in EU

Master Of Puppets

Thanks for the feedback guys. Kinda disappointing though

JasonP03 wrote: »

I've seen ads like these too while looking for a summer internship. At least in Canada, there are NO IT security oriented internships, they all seem to be for developers or tech support. This is frightening though, considering when I leave university I'll likely have no experience.

That is exactly my problem. I want to have enough experience once I finish my degree and before starting my Masters.I did manage to get internships and I am probably going to start working half-time after that but I went through hell to get it, literally. But that's just me - all my friends and the people I know can't seem to find anything and it's quite a struggle. In my case I had luck and showed great desire and extreme passion for the job, they were amazed by the fire in my eyes when talking about the job cause I really love this stuff. But that is not enough since I am definitely not the only one who shows this, I guess I just ran into the right people. I know some people that have been trying to get a job through their whole degree and now when they have it, they still can't find a job. This stuff just creeps me out.

Hypntick

Can't speak to the network admin one, but that pentester one looks normal. You don't get started in security with no experience normally, it's generally after being a network admin or sysadmin for a bit.

Corrsta

Yeah, unfortunately this seems to be a trend in just about every job field lately (finance, education, healthcare, etc.). However, one of my friends does a lot of hiring as a manager at a local state university. He explained to me that the whole "1-3 years of experience" for an entry level job is purely to attract the IDEAL candidate. He almost never gets an applicant that has exactly what they're looking for, and they're more than happy to hire someone with minimal experience as long as they have a good work ethic.

So yeah, as ridiculous as some of these job requirements seem, don't let it discourage you from applying, the worst they can say is, "no".

Master Of Puppets

Can't argue with you on that one but that's for a normal pen tester gig, IMHO. This is a junior one and it is intended "for people looking to get their foot through the door" as they said. I just don't consider it an entry position for getting your foot through the door with a degree and 3 years of experience.

xe3tec wrote: »

I can speak for Austria/Germany, its the same there. They want multitalent geniuses with 5y+ experience for some shitty jobs...its nearly impossible to find a classic Junior position.

I find that strange. I keep hearing about how there is a lack of IT people in Germany and they even have a program to hire IT specialists from abroad as a result of their shortage. If these are the requirements, I do not believe it is going to be easy to fill that gap.

puertorico1985

The Security position listed above is pretty standard, IMHO. It is a security-related job, and you must first have some knowledge and experience in another field (networks, systems, programming) to work and be good at security. So when an employer puts up an ad and are looking for a entry-level security person, they are not looking for an entry-level IT guy, they need someone who works in a different capacity and has experience who wants to switch to security.

dave330i

Corrsta wrote: »

However, one of my friends does a lot of hiring as a manager at a local state university. He explained to me that the whole "1-3 years of experience" for an entry level job is purely to attract the IDEAL candidate. He almost never gets an applicant that has exactly what they're looking for, and they're more than happy to hire someone with minimal experience as long as they have a good work ethic.

That's part of the problem. Companies are delusional on what they consider "IDEAL" candidate.

xe3tec

Master Of Puppets wrote: »

I find that strange. I keep hearing about how there is a lack of IT people in Germany and they even have a program to hire IT specialists from abroad as a result of their shortage. If these are the requirements, I do not believe it is going to be easy to fill that gap.

It is. As said as above, the best would be a PhD for a Helpdesk Job...Problem is, from my experience while getting a job, that the recruiters have no idea of IT, you are lucky if you speak directly to someone from the IT Dep.

ptilsen

While there's no dying that it's a common problem in this industry, these postings don't look out of the realm.

Junior network admin is not an entry-level position. It can be, but generally it's not. You get the right skills and demonstrate them after putting in some time in a lower level position (NOC, helpdesk, etc.) and you can get that job. I would say 1-3 years might be more reasonable, but three years isn't too crazy.

The pentesting position looks very normal. Entry-level Pentesting is a mid-level position, really.

The more ridiculous job ads I've seen are the true entry-level jobs. Level 1 help desk, 2-5 years experiences, degree, MCSE, $14/hr. PC Technician, A+, Net+, 2+ years experience, $10/hr.

xe3tec

Yea but where do I get network experience in a helpdesk job lol? A Junior Position is IMO also some learning on job...at least it was

ptilsen

I've yet to see a helpdesk job that never involved troubleshooting basic networking issues. You won't get experience configuring network equipment, but you can get that in studying for your CCNA. It's a matter of getting the right skills and presenting it all correctly on your resume.

If it were truly impossible to get junior networking positions without having already been in one, there would be no network admins. I don't any IT professionals who hold the view that if you haven't been in a professional setting doing a specific activity, then you cannot do that activity. That would be a true catch-22 and make the position impossible to get. It's just a matter of getting past HR/recruiters and demonstrating sufficient skill to the interviewer.

xe3tec

But that is exactly the problem here. The looking desperately for people because the old seniors are getting to old and retire, but there are so little juniors because they never managed to school some! And now there is that big gap.

edit: and I think we define Helpdesk Job in a different way

N2IT

PT good point

I agree that sometimes you have to come outside your comfort zone and stretch your skills. Essentially "putting yourself out there" and going for it. If you fail oh well, but if you have the drive you'll break through.

This is where resume writing and self awareness of the position you are currently working is so critical. I always and I am ALWAYS have a notepad file on my desktop and if I do something new I capture it in the txt file. This has really given me a lot of good information in the past to write resumes.

Like PT mentioned if you are troubleshooting networking problems on the phone capture that and document it in the best more professional way possible.

zipolini

I've got an impression you guys on the other side of the pond live in much different world than us in Europe. Here in Europe it's really difficult to break through without uni degree in CS or something similar, especially when you are not that young anymore and try to switch your career. In US usually Comptia A+,N+ and Sec+ and good resume is enough to land you an interview for 1st line helpdesk or NOC position and for example in my country Poland not many people ever heard about Comptia at all.

ptilsen

Yes, in this field anyway, degrees are not as much of a requirement. In general, one can get a job in this field if one can do the job, regardless of specific credentials. Every bit helps, but the requirement for university degrees is not nearly as widespread as in the UK.

GarudaMin

I thought ridiculous job offers are the ones that ask for CISSP, CCIE, 10+ years of exp, have detail knowledge of cisco, microsoft AD, DNS, DHCP, etc. with the salary of $30,000 a year. Did I forget to mention that you will also be on call 24/7? We are talking about in the states.

Master Of Puppets

xe3tec wrote: »

But that is exactly the problem here. The looking desperately for people because the old seniors are getting to old and retire, but there are so little juniors because they never managed to school some! And now there is that big gap.

edit: and I think we define Helpdesk Job in a different way

Exactly and sometimes there is a surplus of candidates who can do the job but are not considered for the part because they do not have X amount of experience.This is what I was getting at.

Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know if there are job opportunities for experienced security pros(5+ years of experience) with degrees and certs in Germany?

Thanks again for the tips folks

NetworkVeteran

xe3tec wrote: »

But that is exactly the problem here. The looking desperately for people because the old seniors are getting to old and retire, but there are so little juniors because they never managed to school some! And now there is that big gap.

At least in the states, I've never seen a key team at an important corporation staffed by octogenarians. I mostly see folks in their 30s-40s, although certainly there is a peppering of folks with less color in their hair. I also see the occasional so-so engineer forced into early retirement, a sign they are not desperate for just any reasonable employee.

there are so little juniors because they never managed to school some!

Many large employers offer scholarships and vendors do tend to charge less for entry-level certifications. This helps to ensure there's a wide enough pool of people available to hire for their entry-level positions, and more. Ultimately, it's not their responsibility to ensure any particular junior candidate goes to college or obtain reasonable certifications.

And now there is that big gap.

Actual gaps are filled by paying more or hiring with a more global perspective.

Corportions are managing. I'd focus on the other perspectives--

1. What can we personally do to make ourselves as attractive to employers as possible?
2. What can we as a nation do to better prepare our youth to fill more of these high-paying jobs?

hoelschera

Blame HR.

xe3tec

@Master of Puppets: I hv seen some here in Vienna. usually starts at 50k, usually car inclusive, good Sec Pro is always needed
@NetworkVeteran: Obviously the US is way different than Europe. Starts with the certs, most of them here are not recognized, its just not common. And I just write down what I experienced and what the HR said, usually its "there are just no qualified people" while the engineers from university can't find a job and live on welfare. I know PhD's who are looking for work since months. And then the gov wonders why so many people leave and move to nicer countries.

jibbajabba

Corrsta wrote: »

He explained to me that the whole "1-3 years of experience"

Fair and good - but those silly offers usually are underpinned by really low wages - this will never attract ideal candidates and will shy away not so ideal ones.

Which reminds me :

What if Drivers were hired like System Administrators?

Job title: car driver

Job requirements: professional skills in driving normal- and heavy-freight cars, buses and trucks, trolley buses, trams, subways, tractors, shovel diggers, contemporary light and heavy tanks currently in use by NATO countries.

Skills in rally and extreme driving are obligatory!
Formula-1 driving experience is a plus.

Knowledge and experience in repairing of piston and rotor/Wankel engines, automatic and manual transmissions, ignition systems, board computer, ABS, ABD, GPS and car-audio systems by world-known manufacturers - obligatory!

Experience with car-painting and tinsmith tasks is a plus.

The applicants must have certificates by BMW, General Motors and Bosch, but not older than two years.

Compensation: $15-$20/hour, depends on the interview result.

Education requirements: Bachelor's Degree of Engineering.

xe3tec

haha..true!
I know a janitor who got a Diploma in EE! Now he is reparing lamps, better than nothing in between.

dmoore44

Funny you mention this... I was thinking the same thing when I saw a job posting for a INFOSEC Specialist job at Visa (the credit card people). In the job description, they wanted an INFOSEC guy who was also proficient at programming (not scripting, but full on programming), networking, server admin, and desktop support. Someone needs to inform their HR department that you can pick one or two of those skills and get someone... but not all 5. The kicker was that the posting wanted 3-5 years experience for each of those skills... That says to me that they want a JOAT who's about to retire.

Sponx

A lot of these postings are made to be an intimidation factor more than setting the bar "too high" for people that do think they are qualified candidates. Don't let it scare you, based on several of my own personal experiences.