Going Military to Civilian - How much can I expect?

the_hutch

After 5 years in the US Air Force, I am finally separating and entering the civilian world. As a single parent, this was the best option for me (possibility of deployment for anywhere from 6 months to a year is no good for me). I'm a little nervous about entering the civilian work-force. I know I can find a job. But I don't really know how much to ask for when they ask me how much I expect. So here's another standard "How much am I worth?" question.

1 in year helpdesk (prior to military)
5 years in InfoSec...Vulnerability Management, Intrusion Detection, Malware Forensics and Penetration Testing experience.

CISSP, CNDA, CEH, ECSA, CHFI, Net+ Sec+
Associates in IT
Bachelor's in IT

Been published in Hakin9 Magazine and eForensics Magazine.

Is it unreasonable to expect over 100k??? How much would you ask for? Any feedback would be really appreciated.

the_Grinch

Given all that I would say you could ask for $100k. Your best bet is to jump right into a contracting gig as that is where you'll definitely make some good coin.

Mrock4

If I'm being honest with you, I'd expect 70-80k for a good first position straight out of the military with a non-gov't position. I am not saying you're not worth over 100k- but when you're coming straight out of the military EVERYONE knows you didn't make much, so they're going to lowball you a bit. I was offered 45k/92k/70k when I left the military with 7 years experience, with a CCNA/CCDA/CCNP/CISSP/Sec+. That shows you how varied the offers can be.

That being said, it is certainly not impossible, I'm just giving my $.02 based on my fairly recent experience (in the last 2 years) of separating, and also watching buddies separate. So far, I believe all of them (with 6 yrs exp) ended up in the 50-70k range to start. Some are working the private sector, some are contracting on base.

Obviously your best way to make that 6 figures is going to be using your clearance- if you find the right job, and they don't lowball you, 80-100k wouldn't be unreasonable.

Best of luck though, keep your head up. It was extremely stressful for me separating knowing I had mouths to feed, but stick to your plan and it'll work out.

Edit: Always ASK for as much as you can, but I was stating realistic numbers of what you may be offered. I certainly hope you end up on the high side though!

MiikeB

My comments are based on my 8 years experience working as a defense contractor. Though I was never in the military, I made many friends who made a transition similar to what you are doing.

First of all, you are WAY ahead of your peers actually having a degree and certifications that are relevant, many people waste their time in the military telling themselves they will just get it done after on the GI Bill.

Second, I agree with Melroc that you are probably going to be looking at $70k-80k starting out. Especially if you stay in San Antonio. I am getting ready to move to Austin in 10 days and that is what my research in the area has led me to believe.

The best thing you have going for you is your clearance. I would expect $75k-$80k in a cleared position and $60-$70k in a non cleared position. The worst thing you have going for you is the years of experience. In DoD Contractor positions the contract generally spells out the years of experience required for each position and generally it is 8 for the higher levels. Unfortunately there is just not a good system in place to waive the years of experience requirement. Every contract is different but that is a roadblock you may run in to.

In the private sector the experience can also be a problem. These days, most IT roles seem to be filled by recruiters. They will probably glance at your resume and count the years and move on. Now if you can actually get a meeting with the IT manager or team responsible for hiring you may be able to impress them enough to get a role that pays in the six figures, but your battle will be getting past the recruiters to them.

In summary, for now I would expect $70k-$80k and plan to start looking around for something in the six figure range in 2-3 years.

da_vato

Did you look at salary.com for where you are going to? I would say based on my experience Mrock is right you will be low balled at first. I was offered 45/68/71k and Salary.com showed 90k was the median of what I should expect per the position I was applying. I went with the 68k offer cause it was a better fit plus they were really after my combat experience. I'm about to hit two years here in August and I will be making 98k now.

If you receive an offer, reply with a counter offer, Employers have a range that they are allowed to offer you not a specific salary.

networker050184

$100k is a little unrealistic expectation IMO. Not impossible, but not likely either. My first job out of the military (did 6 years as well) was an Engineering role at an ISP making around the $60k mark. This has been more than a few years ago now, so something around $70k as others have said in todays market seems more realistic depending on where you plan to live.

I made it into the 6 figures within a few years of being out though more applicable civi experience.

the_hutch

I think I can handle a few years at the $70-$80 range. Still nearly doubles my current $40k salary.

MiikeB

the_hutch wrote: »

I think I can handle a few years at the $70-$80 range. Still nearly doubles my current $40k salary.

I am not saying you won't be taking home more, but I think it might be closer than you think. Assuming you are an E-5 you get $35-$38k a year salary then $19k a year BAH/BAS (I assume you get BAH/BAS because you mentioned a child) tax free in SA plus any other allowances you get then figure as a civilian you will have to pay $80-$120 a month for medical/dental plus retirement savings and all the sudden your take home is right there with a guy making $65k-$68k working for Boeing.

I definitely think as a single parent and someone as smart as yourself you will be better off going private, just a slight rant because I get sick and tired of hearing these guys complain about how they make $30k a year and could be outside making $80k when in reality they make closer to $65k and have the skills to get a helpdesk job paying $35k.

networker050184

+1 to MiikeB for sure. It really is a whole different ball game compensation wise on the outside. The $60k coming out didn't quite go as far as it sounded on paper when taking all the military benefits into account. It really does suck not having free medical, especially with a family. That's an extra couple hundred dollars a month post taxes that really eats into that salary. Not to mention co-pays and the like.

the_hutch

MiikeB wrote: »

I am not saying you won't be taking home more, but I think it might be closer than you think. Assuming you are an E-5 you get $35-$38k a year salary then $19k a year BAH/BAS (I assume you get BAH/BAS because you mentioned a child) tax free in SA plus any other allowances you get.

No, that's not base pay...40k is with my allowances. My total paycheck every two weeks is 1,756. $1756 x 24 = $42,144. Total yearly income after taxes. That's as an E-5 with dependent rate. Only about $30k for base pay and about $12k for BAH/BAS.

MiikeB wrote: »

I get sick and tired of hearing these guys complain about how they make $30k a year and could be outside making $80k when in reality they make closer to $65k and have the skills to get a helpdesk job paying $35k

I do agree with you here. I know very few military personnel who really have the qualifications for an outside IT job. And I hear this all the time too, from people who have no education and no qualifications.

networker050184

$42k after taxes is not bad at all. That's like making $80k+ and paying medical etc. Even less if you have to pay state tax.

MiikeB

the_hutch wrote: »

No, that's not base pay...40k is with my allowances. My total paycheck every two weeks is 1,756. $1756 x 24 = $42,144. Total yearly income after taxes. That's as an E-5 with dependent rate. Only about $30k for base pay and about $12k for BAH/BAS.

I figured when you said 40k you meant before taxes. Most people talk about salary as a gross, not net. So $42,144 assuming an average tax rate of 13% would be right up there at almost $60k or so before factoring in what you have to pay towards medical/dental/retirement. Also 25%-50% less PTO and about 40% less paid holidays.

Again I think you are making the right move here, mostly just pointing out for any other military that might later review this so they realize the calculation is not straight forward at all and there is a lot to consider besides simple salary numbers.

Mrock4

That is one thing that surprised me when I got out. I was making about $50k (with BAH) before taxes in the Army, but only paying taxes on about half of that. When you get out you'll quickly be paying taxes on your entire salary, which sucks. The good news, is the first year you're a bit better off since you spent part of the year earning BAH, so your tax liability isn't as bad. Just an extra note!

da_vato

Do you have a preference as to what sector you would prefer? GS position, contractor, private sector, etc..? This plays a big factor as well.

the_hutch

Hoping to go private sector. Just for the record, I wasn't doing this for the money...more for family reasons. Just wanted to know what to expect. I definitely appreciate everyone's input.

Mrock4

You're a high performer, and high performers have a strange habit of being more lucky than most! You'll be in good shape once you transition.

da_vato

I don't believe anyone questions your motives. Your asking all the same questions we all did when we were getting out. The simple truth is we are institutionalized more than we would like to admit. I have no doubt you will rise to the occasion.

MiikeB

Mrock4 wrote: »

You're a high performer, and high performers have a strange habit of being more lucky than most! You'll be in good shape once you transition.

Agreed. While you may not start out where you want to be you will find the private sector is more efficient at valuing employees. It still isn't perfect, but the higher you go the less you will encounter people that "fell" in to the job without qualification, which seems to be something very common in the military.

dmoore44

Honestly, it really depends on the market in which you want to settle and what sort of demands are placed upon you by your job. I went through the same thing about 4 years ago when I got out of the AF. I was stationed in DC, got out after 4 years as a SrA and got a job in the DC metro area making just over $70k. I've transitioned to a few different positions since then, and have received the commensurate salary increases. But I'm still not at six figures. So, don't expect any six figure offers if you stay in San Antonio. With your experience and skill set, you're ideally positioned to pick up a GS position with one of the agencies that operate there (I'm sure you know them...) or a contract slot. The contract slot will pay more, but for San Antonio, I wouldn't expect over $80k without you being placed in some sort of high-mid/senior level management position (i.e. one that isn't terribly technical). If you move up the road to Austin, there are more purely private sector options there (Visa, Apple, Cisco, Dell, MS, etc...). If you move out east to Houston, there are a bunch of medical/health care related industries out there.

Since you've got your CISSP, hope on the InterSec job boards - There are updates there every day across the world - I've seen some recent postings for HP Consulting type gigs that you might be interested in... they involve a lot of travel, but they're not location dependent.

Anyway, PM me if you want to continue... I'm interested in relocating back to Texas (San Antonio in particular), so I do spend a fair amount watching that market...

instant000

As far as locally, 2011- 2012 - I used to contract at MEDCOM, but when they started transitioning our team to GS-12, I split to go back to private sector.
2012-2013 - I work at the signal brigade at Fort Sam, but we don't have that many contractors, mostly civilians. On the team I work on, we haven't lost a body in almost a year.

As far as whether or not you could get 100K in San Antonio, it would depend on the contract you got on, and how willing you were to travel.

You might want to update your LinkedIn profile.

How soon are you getting out?

Are you willing to relocate?

Have you done any looking on clearancejobs.com?

If you want to get fished out by local recruiters, post your resume out there. A lot of these jobs tend to fill pretty fast because the contractors have certain performance obligations, as it doesn't look good to leave a seat empty for too long.

Hope this helps.

EDIT:

Your LinkedIn profile is "understated" if that makes any sense. I know that you do the videos and publications, but I'm not sure any recruiter can tell that from your title or summary, or if they're going to take the time to scroll through your profile to find that out. (of course, I know most recruiters probably search for key terms like "CISSP" or whatever, but still.)

I feel that you need a snappier title, and you need to hit on your publishing and videos harder in your summary.

Also, you need to locate the "key words" for whatever you're trying to be hit for, and make sure those words appear within the text of your profile.

Heck, if you have a blog, post articles and include keywords like "Hutch, CISSP, Security Researcher, Security Expert, Penetration Tester" or whatever you like to do and want to be known for. Additionally, in your blog posts, include links to your LinkedIn profile or wherever else.

I did something similar a few years back, just to elevate myself above a guy who had the exact same name as me, but he was a truck driver, and I just wanted higher page rank on Google... sad, I know.

EDIT2:

On the finances thing:
People already hit on the housing thing, and the healthcare thing, and the food thing, and for good measure, the clothing thing, too (no more annual clothing allowance). I'll add one more: the RETIREMENT thing. Though you may have to sacrifice a little bit, it is well worth it to save incrementally, and automatically, towards your retirement. At least get full company match on the 401K, max the ROTH, and try your best to max the 401K. Go out eating less.
Get a term life insurance policy. Within 10 to 15 years, you should have saved enough where it doesn't matter anymore.

Hopefully, no more edits.

SephStorm

This thread is invaluable. I always feel uncomfortable when I ask for 70k or something, it really is out of my comprehension, glad to hear that i'm not being unreasonable. I'll tell you, I've been offered anything from 40-8k, location has been the biggest factor in that. Honestly I'd be willing to move anywhere at this point. (Anywhere warm that is.) So of course, if anyone is looking for a passionate systems/network/security professional, please reach out...

instant000

SephStorm wrote: »

I always feel uncomfortable when I ask for 70k or something, it really is out of my comprehension, glad to hear that i'm not being unreasonable.

[opinion]
That is one funny thing about how things have worked out with wage secrecy. No one says what anyone else is making, so there is no revelation on the disparities. By workers not sharing wages amongst themselves, they effectively have less negotiation power, as they don't know what a job really pays.[/opinion]

Depending on your company structure, you won't realize what anyone else is making unless you become the head of a department, someone tells you, you work with accounting/HR, or something similar. One rule of thumb you should use is this: check what the public servants in the area make, and then ask for more than that. For certain public-related organizations, you can find out their wages online.

For example, around here, we can look up the wages for the electrical utility online, and see disparities even within the same department. If you work private sector, you should be offered on par or even more than what they make. I hope this helps.

Are you at "Relaxin' Jackson"? I visited there a few months ago. Strange place. The Network Enterprise Center has a Gamecocks flag flying over it ...

colemic

Hutch, when I was in San Antonio a few years ago, I was doing DIACAP work on a contract on Security Hill at Lackland, and made 83k. Probably could have gotten more, but didn't push it. Your availability (local area, no relo), clearance, and CISSP will help for sure. It's all about filling the checkboxes.

networker050184

da_vato wrote: »

I don't believe anyone questions your motives. Your asking all the same questions we all did when we were getting out. The simple truth is we are institutionalized more than we would like to admit. I have no doubt you will rise to the occasion.

Exactly, many of us have been in your shoes and have felt the shock making the transition. Preperation is the best thing you can do and it sounds like you are well on your way to a successful transition. I've known many people get out and are back in a couple months after that terminal leave pay runs out and they have to make it in the real world.

bobloblaw

See what Northrop jobs are around you. They pay well, especially with someone with your credentials and active security clearance. Their eLearning is also very robust unless it's changed in the past 3-5 years.

sieff

www.glassdoor.com is pretty accurate in terms of salaries at companies.

SephStorm

instant000 wrote: »

[opinion]
That is one funny thing about how things have worked out with wage secrecy. No one says what anyone else is making, so there is no revelation on the disparities. By workers not sharing wages amongst themselves, they effectively have less negotiation power, as they don't know what a job really pays.[/opinion]

Depending on your company structure, you won't realize what anyone else is making unless you become the head of a department, someone tells you, you work with accounting/HR, or something similar. One rule of thumb you should use is this: check what the public servants in the area make, and then ask for more than that. For certain public-related organizations, you can find out their wages online.

For example, around here, we can look up the wages for the electrical utility online, and see disparities even within the same department. If you work private sector, you should be offered on par or even more than what they make. I hope this helps.

Are you at "Relaxin' Jackson"? I visited there a few months ago. Strange place. The Network Enterprise Center has a Gamecocks flag flying over it ...

Nah, down the road a bit.

beantownmp

I spent 6 years in the Army doing non-IT work (MP) and joined the Air Guard immediately after doing IT (3D1). I've spent the last 2 years on active orders and just transitioned to a contracting job at an Army base. I don't have nearly the IT pedigree as you (A+, Sec+, A.S. in CS) but landed a job making 65k in an IT/development/support role. Mainly stating this as a comparison for you to see. You shouldn't even look at any offers less than what I'm making considering your education & certs. I didn't really have any IT experience besides personal web development projects prior to the my 2 years in the Air Guard. I think the clearance has certainly helped.

Good luck!

instant000

bobloblaw wrote: »

Their eLearning is also very robust unless it's changed in the past 3-5 years.

If you have a ".mil" e-mail address currently (you should still have your e4L address-- which is the term the AF used for "e-mail 4 Life" when I worked on a contract supporting them when they were making the transition to "enterprise e-mail" from "base email"), you need to register for the following:

safaribooksonline (hundreds of great IT text books)

skillport (Doesn't AF get skillport also?)

Note: if you can't get skillport via AF, there is a backup plan: register through Robert Half Technology as a recruit, and get access to skillport through them.

Hope this helps.

the_hutch

instant000 wrote: »

If you have a ".mil" e-mail address currently, you need to register for the following:

safaribooksonline (hundreds of great IT text books)

skillport (Doesn't AF get skillport also?)

VTELearning was one that I made sure I had a solid account for before losing my email. And I've already got safaribooksonline too. I'll definitely look into skillport.