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i can bs my way to help desk and tech support jobs but not...great $$

Salt0912

I am currently at a wall in IT as I don't know in what direction to go. The way I see it I have been able to bs my way into helpdesk, tech support or anything entry level jobs without certs or education. I have knowledge of mobile devices and their OS, how to fix them and install new software anyways. I don't have any education in IT or computer science either. I go to my interviews I know a bit about windows environment, networks, applications and learning some powershell scripting now. so when i throw a bit of knowledge out and twek my resume to reflect work history or whatever im in but here is my frustration.

I see lots of ppl on here talk about how they have certs with education a mile long with exp but can't get a good paying job, I got kids.

I see my friend how works for a helpdesk position for COX who owns manhunt and autotrader. they start them at 40k a year with bonuses and great benefits. We get to talking and stuff, I tell him that I am a application support specialist. I go to tell him we support windows environments, networks, a propitiatory application on desktops and mobile devices (ios and android), trouble shoot tcp/ip issue, printer support over logmein rescue technician. i am also learning powershell.

His reponse to this was like hell nah i dont even do half the stuff you do. that **** rubbed me the wrong way because I also have other friends that dont work as hard or know about much of their subject like manual labor or whatever and live or are way better off then me. Im tired of this ****.

I sit here being expose to active directory, networks, windows environments and blah blah getting shafted on pay. All the jobs I can land are between $14-20 an hr man that aint **** when you got kids and real bills. I live in GA so their has been a decent market for tech support/helpdesk positions. I am bilingual in Spanish which of course has always helped me out. i have my GED that no one ever ask for but require for the job and i lied about having an A+ and net+ still couldn't land a better job. so I just took it off all together off my resume.

my other friend on the other hand works for citrix in alpharetta getting super paid and his brother who is a c+ and sql dev i think also really well off both in like the 70k+ a year range. The citrix guy doesnt have a computer science degree just exp and mcsa, security+ and i believe that was it and is an escalation engineer over there. His brother the developer doesn't have anything just knows C+ and SQL. I get to thinking well I guess here in GA the opportunities are great for the ones that get lucky. WHile I see on this forum ppl struggling who have certs, education and exp having a hard time gettting a decent paying job.

a lot of jobs will ask for very specific IT related subject you need to know like exp with the as400, when i asked my citrix friend he was like thats old legacy tech and no one really bothers to learn that. I had a job interview with rollens and they asked me about that. I'm like wtf is that, well in my head. Some jobs ask for AD, exchange, server 2012, MS office, ccna, sql, mysql, c language, java and scripting and they offer like $18 an hr like some cheap as ***** saying take it or leave it because someone else will take it. I'm thinking what the F am I gonna do, I have to get out of low level IT/computer science or whatever into something else. My future wife dad drives gasoline trucks makes like 70k a year, im not saying thats easy but don't you think something is off with IT/computer science jobs. I am just thinking of going into something else, f it i might as well drive trucks and not worry about having to learn A+, net+, security+, msca, ccna, sql, mysql, linux+, AD, exchange, Cloud, programming languages for what 50k i wanna just jump off a bridge thinking about all this and how stupid it is.

I thought I wanted to do mobile development for ios, android and windows phone...i see that in the future thats not gonna pan out.

i thought well what about security with the cloud(citrix/vmware), I dont even know where to start with this and I believe I will need like 100 yrs of exp with a masters or something.

I am looking at doing this cert path but I don't know in what area I want to go into that has great pay after like a year of exp.

A+
network+
sercurity+
mcsa (AD and server)
maybe a ccna
powershell(not a cert, I know)
learning -C. c++, C#, php and maybe perl
sql and mysql
learning some citrix certs because they get paid!

then finishing my diploma at the local tech school in computer programming focused in web development, java, c++ and sql and they tell me i can get my java cert after i take my java class.

all that to not know what I really want to do and get like $18 and a pat on the back, right?

Either security (blackhat) with cloud computing or automation with scripts or development. I don't want to be in a call center no matter what they call it NOC, application support, tech support, helpdesk or whatever its still a call center. Can i please get some feed back am I the only one feeling like this??

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Comments

zdx

Have you considered applying out of state? I don't know how the market is where you live but here in the chicago area there are always openings. Wages are higher but so is the cost of living. Have you contacted any recruiters? Maybe they can help you out. I see most businesses hire from within and rarely will they bring in someone to take a more managerial role from the outside. Thats how most IT folks I feel get those higher paying jobs, working from the bottom to the top.

cruwl

The help desk can feel like a black hole some times, not able to escape. I know the feeling I did it for 6 years! I was stuck at the help desk until i started putting in the effort out side of work to better my self, my skills and my experience.

Now I don't see where you say how much experience you have, but to me being able to BS your way into a Help Desk position tells me you dont have much experience. You have 0 Certs. So why should a company higher you for a better job?

When you get into these more advanced positions you cant BS your way through an interview, people try and you will usually be picked apart, and the interview will last 5 minutes. Ive been in interviews that take 2-3 hours, and they are technical, you have to give very detailed explanations of protocols, software, hardware ect.

My advice skip a+, do your Net+, and Maybe Sec+. That still wont be enough to really land you sys admin or net admin job, but It might be enough to move up where you are at. Then maybe MCSA or CCNA, start studying for them, if you dont like the material, then switch to another one until you find a technology that actually motivates you.

And your right some people are handed cushy jobs, and others we have to work to get where we are. Personally I find more satisfaction in knowing I was hired because I can back it up, not cause I BSed my way through it.

NetworkVeteran

The way I see it I have been able to bs my way into helpdesk, tech support or anything entry level jobs without certs or education.

Perhaps you don't "BS" them as much as you think you do. Most employers have a need for a mix of more junior and more senior people. I would add, being straight-forward about both your abilities makes a much better impression.

i lied about having an A+ and net+ still couldn't land a better job.

Lying tends to land you in a worse job. These things are easy to check, and again, most employers value integrity.

I see lots of ppl on here talk about how they have certs with education a mile long with exp but can't get a good paying job, I got kids.

Really? I've consistently posted a CS/EE degree + CCNA was enough to get a good entry-level networking job. No "mile long" needed. The one time I recall someone said they had those and didn't have luck, the common reply was they must have been doing something very wrong, and to post their resume. The last US census showed the average person with a BS makes ~$35,000 more than someone with just a high-school education. Averages don't apply to everyone, but they are a guide, all else being equal.

they start them at 40k a year with bonuses and great benefits.. His reponse to this was like hell nah i dont even do half the stuff you do. that **** rubbed me the wrong way because I also have other friends that dont work as hard

If you worked harder, how is it they have a degree and/or certifications that you don't? Those didn't magically appear. Those are the fruits of time, effort, and possibly monetary investments. In some cases they began this effort in high school or earlier.

All the jobs I can land are between $14-20 an hr man that aint **** when you got kids and real bills.

Take the $20/hr job and you make the same ($40k) as your friend who doesn't work so hard anymore.

I get to thinking well I guess here in GA the opportunities are great for the ones that get lucky.

There's the rub! Work to improve your stars, or hope to win the lottery? With a family planned, I know which one I'd choose.

WHile I see on this forum ppl struggling who have certs, education and exp having a hard time gettting a decent paying job.

Now you've heard otherwise! I have family making three times or so what your super-paid friends make and they live in the same area as you. Actually, it's a good area if you have the skills, by them and their friends accounts.

I am looking at doing this cert path but I don't know in what area I want to go into that has great pay after like a year of exp.

It's possible, but unlikely, you will double your pay in a year given you've already been in IT a spell. If you look instead for a plan that will significantly increase your pay in 3-4 years, you will probably find yourself on a much better course. That might include a degree or a sequence of multiple certifications, depending on your ambition and interests.

ptilsen

I think you need to take a direction. You are all over the place with your skills. If you want to get ahead in infrastructure, I don't see learning all of these different programming languages as making sense. If you want to program for a living, getting Comptia certs or MCSA or CCNA doesn't make a lot of sense, either. You don't necessarily have to commit to a specialization, but you have to pick some kind of direction, here. I can certainly empathize with the difficult in doing even this much.

If you want to stick with core infrastructure, go for MCSA and probably CCNA. I wouldn't get CompTIA anything at this point in your career unless you want to stay on the helpdesk. MCSA goes a long way towards getting a server admin job, and CCNA can help with a lot of different kinds of positions, even just better helpdesk or NOC positions. PowerShell is a good skill as well, if you want better Windows-centric jobs.

If you want to do web development or programming, forget about certifications entirely and get a computer science degree. No one is going to take a diploma from your local tech school altogether that seriously. There are some programming certifications that have some weight in the market, but not that many, and only for certain areas.

Regarding unrealistic job posting requirements, my advice is to ignore them. I have never, ever been offered a job for which I met all of the "requirements." I've received seven or eight offers from nine or ten interviews over the last eight years, and I was always missing something of consequence from the requirements list. In most cases there is simply a disconnect between HR/recruiter and the technical person, if there even is one. It's more about resume quality, interviewing skills, aptitude, and attitude. Don't get me wrong, for higher-skill jobs you need to have certain skills, but most employers are not so picky as job postings would have you believe. Almost no one is actuallylooking for a Windows server admin who also programs in C and is working on his CCIE or RHCE.

Last year I interviewed for a senior server engineer position that listed every Microsoft and Cisco cert under the sun alongside, I kid you not, FORTRAN and COBOL, and just about everything in between. What they really wanted was an MS SQL admin who knew other infrastructure components. The job posting was three pages long and I didn't have even half the skills they were listing.

Regarding truck driving or something "easier," all I can say is that you should think about the future. Almost no one in this country will drive trucks for a living in 10-20 years. Driverless vehicles are going to decimate the market for drivers, and it's not really that great of a career move anyway when you consider the time, effort, and costs that go into being a truck driver.

Finally, relocation is not a bad option, if it's feasible for you. I don't know if I'd recommend Chicago, specifically, but there are plenty of metropolitan areas with low unemployment, especially tech unemployment. Here's some quick and easy data from BLS provided by Google:
Unemployment - Google Public Data Explorer

Salt0912

cruwl wrote: »

The help desk can feel like a black hole some times, not able to escape.

say that again...

Salt0912

none of my friends have certs but my friend at citrix which is mcsa and security+ other then that my other two friends dont have anything.

Salt0912

ptilsen wrote: »

I think you need to take a direction. You are all over the place with your skills. If you want to get ahead in infrastructure, I don't see learning all of these different programming languages as making sense. If you want to program for a living, getting Comptia certs or MCSA or CCNA doesn't make a lot of sense, either. You don't necessarily have to commit to a specialization, but you have to pick some kind of direction, here. I can certainly empathize with the difficult in doing even this much.

If you want to do web development or programming, forget about certifications entirely and get a computer science degree. No one is going to take a diploma from your local tech school altogether that seriously. There are some programming certifications that have some weight in the market, but not that many, and only for certain areas.

Regarding truck driving or something "easier," all I can say is that you should think about the future. Almost no one in this country will drive trucks for a living in 10-20 years. Driverless vehicles are going to decimate the market for drivers, and it's not really that great of a career move anyway when you consider the time, effort, and costs that go into being a truck driver.

I'm thinking development with mobile apps(ios,android and windows phone), databases with web like php/mysql or security(blackhat but i don't know what certs or the job market for this) with cloud computing(security for the cloud citrix) these are the most that stand out to me.

I really don't like systems or networks as much.

My friend that is a C# programmer and deals with sql database doesn't have a computer science degree or certs just what he learned in highschool. I spoke to my friend about the diploma who works at citirix and I could to a lot of better places with that. I want the computer science degree but what are some development or database certs or whatever that you recommend. I hear network+ and security+ is great for everyone.

The truck driving thing can be applied to IT as well, the clouds and everything being automated by scripts is the direction everything is going. That is another I have to get the hell out of this helpdesk environment.

ptilsen

Salt0912 wrote: »

My friend that is a C# programmer and deals with sql database doesn't have a computer science degree or certs just what he learned in highschool. I spoke to my friend about the diploma who works at citirix and I could to a lot of better places with that. I want the computer science degree but what are some development or database certs or whatever that you recommend. I hear network+ and security+ is great for everyone.

Ultimately, you can get a job as almost anything in this industry if you have the skills. However, a good credential helps a lot, and a bachelors degree is often a requirement. If you want to go down this path, by all means, learn to code. Just don't think there's any value in a tech diploma as a credential. If it is still the most effective way for you to learn to code, then by all means, go for it.

As far as what certs, it will really depend. You've at least picked a general direction, but I wouldn't start studying for certs until you've got a better idea. Your focus at this point should really be programming principles and concepts, which you'll get from a CS degree, but you can also get doing self-study, maybe starting with Java or Python or both. Once you have concepts down, picking up whatever language you need for a given area will not be so difficult, and you might get a better idea of what you want to do. Security+ and Network+ are good for security and networking concepts, but I don't see the certs helping you get a start in any area except infrastructure security implementation or policy, which I doubt you'll like anymore than you like infrastructure as it is. Still might be worth studying, but everything else you're saying says to me that you should pursue a CS degree or self-study CS materials.

Salt0912 wrote: »

The truck driving thing can be applied to IT as well, the clouds and everything being automated by scripts is the direction everything is going. That is another I have to get the hell out of this helpdesk environment.

Yes and no. The difference is that in IT, you can shift skills quickly to catch up to where there's demand for work that hasn't been automated, or you can be the one doing the automating. Truck driving is going to nearly disappear altogether. There will be a huge surplus of people willing and able to drive for a living, which will drive wages down and sector unemployment up. You can certainly make a lot more money in IT-related fields, which by definition are going to always have demand as the world becomes further computerized, at least so long as we lack sentient computers. It certainly isn't a stretch to say truck driving at this point is a poor long-term career move, while almost any IT specialization is a good long-term career move. Certainly, though, you don't want to stay in support any longer than you have to. Support is not growing as fast as any other areas, if at all, and you would indeed be lucky to break the $20/hour barrier doing user support anytime soon, no matter your skills.

NetworkVeteran

My friend that is a C# programmer and deals with sql database doesn't have a computer science degree or certs just what he learned in highschool. I spoke to my friend about the diploma who works at citirix and I could to a lot of better places with that. I want the computer science degree but what are some development or database certs or whatever that you recommend. I hear network+ and security+ is great for everyone.

If you're aiming to become a programmer, I also don't see the Network+, Security+, or DBA certifications helping you much. It's not that programmers don't touch these things, but rather that a programmer has an almost completely different perspective and list of tasks to accomplish when compared to a network, system, or database administrator. The exception would be if you were planning to be a programmer for Cisco or McAffee or Oracle. Your CS degree would cover what you need to know about those topics. Of course, there are many free online courses as well, and it's possible to buy the course textbooks even if you're not a student.

he difference is that in IT, you can shift skills quickly to catch up to where there's demand for work that hasn't been automated, or you can be the one doing the automating.

+1. As long as you're not complacent, IT does not look to be a bad place to be ten years from now.

Salt0912

ptilsen wrote: »

As far as what certs, it will really depend. You've at least picked a general direction, but I wouldn't start studying for certs until you've got a better idea. Your focus at this point should really be programming principles and concepts, which you'll get from a CS degree, but you can also get doing self-study, maybe starting with Java or Python or both. Once you have concepts down, picking up whatever language you need for a given area will not be so difficult, and you might get a better idea of what you want to do. Security+ and Network+ are good for security and networking concepts, but I don't see the certs helping you get a start in any area except infrastructure security implementation or policy, which I doubt you'll like anymore than you like infrastructure as it is. Still might be worth studying, but everything else you're saying says to me that you should pursue a CS degree or self-study CS materials.

Yes and no. The difference is that in IT, you can shift skills quickly to catch up to where there's demand for work that hasn't been automated, or you can be the one doing the automating. sentient computers. .

ok i could just kick the certs to the side and not waste my time which i really dont want to. I can try to bs my way into a $20 hr position and which is not out of the realm of possibility right now for me as i am still getting offers. I am looking for something close to that so I can go back to school without hurting to much in my wallet.

I really like programming, security, automation, databases and cloud. I don't like systems or networks really all that much.

I learning powershell right now and it will make so many of the support task here at my job automated, sentient computer?(you lost me). I can run the scripts to automate maybe I would say like 75% of the job but maybe more once I get a better understanding of powershell.

I see some mysql, java, sql, ms developer certs flying around but far as a BS in CS i am working my way up to that. I can't afford to just go to school full time. i am just gonna get my diploma and then a semester more get my associates degree but a bs is another 2years. are the development/database certs any good?

what about the citirx certs they have to be getting a good dollar wage

Salt0912

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

DBA certifications helping you much. there are many free online courses as well, and it's possible to buy the course textbooks even if you're not a student.

where is the free online course and i know there are meetup groups Find Meetup groups near you - Meetup but i didn't know you could buy the books. You need databases for development sqlite for mobile apps and mysql for php

I like to get a job where im at 6 figures and its not a push over job but important not thank you for calling blah blah how can i help you...oh your printers not working...well go to remote maintence...

NetworkVeteran

where is the free online course

Google Edx, Coursera, and Udacity (in order of my preference). Normally, all you need to learn the basics are presented online, but they have recommended texts which will give you a deeper understanding and what students taking the courses in-person would read. Those texts can generally be purchased, or for much less leased, on a bookseller site like Amazon.com.

You need databases for development sqlite for mobile apps and mysql for php

I'm credited in at lest one database textbook. Again, it's not that programmers don't use databases, it's that they use them from a different angle. Think of a DBA as the person who owns a business renting race cards, and the programmer as the person who wins purses driving them. There is some overlap, but the two roles are different enough that, taking a course on how to effectively rent them probably won't help a great deal with learning to race them. 80% of what you learn will be irrelevant.

ptilsen

Automating your own support job is a good thing. It's a good case to get a raise and something great to put on your resume. PowerShell in particular isn't a bad language to get you started anyway, and I think you'll find the syntax and structure translate well into Java and lower-level languages. It's a good foundation for the future that will help your career now.

Working your way up incrementally is good, just as long as your classes transfer well. Doing five or six year's of school to get a four-year because of transfer problems is definitely something to avoid.

There are all sorts of SQL and programming certs around. MS has them for .NET and its SQL products, Oracle for many of its products, including Java, and there are non-vendor Java and language certs as well. I just can't see you pursuing any of them until you've gotten a little farther down the line. And I have to stress that certifications aren't as ubiquitous in programming-heavy fields as they are in infrastructure. Most of the extremely successful developers you'll find have no technical certifications, if any certifications at all. There are plenty of exceptions, and areas where certs are needed, but I would really focus on actual skills and concepts over certs at this point.

Salt0912

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

Google Edx, Coursera, and Udacity (in order of my preference). Normally, all you need to learn the basics are presented online, but they have recommended texts which will give you a deeper understanding and what students taking the courses in-person would read. Those texts can generally be purchased, or for much less leased, on a bookseller site like Amazon.com.

I'm gonna look them up now and see what its about.

Salt0912

ptilsen wrote: »

Automating your own support job is a good thing. It's a good case to get a raise and something great to put on your resume. PowerShell in particular isn't a bad language to get you started anyway, and I think you'll find the syntax and structure translate well into Java and lower-level languages. It's a good foundation for the future that will help your career now.

Working your way up incrementally is good, just as long as your classes transfer well. Doing five or six year's of school to get a four-year because of transfer problems is definitely something to avoid.

There are all sorts of SQL and programming certs around. MS has them for .NET and its SQL products, Oracle for many of its products, including Java, and there are non-vendor Java and language certs as well. I just can't see you pursuing any of them until you've gotten a little farther down the line. And I have to stress that certifications aren't as ubiquitous in programming-heavy fields as they are in infrastructure. Most of the extremely successful developers you'll find have no technical certifications, if any certifications at all. There are plenty of exceptions, and areas where certs are needed, but I would really focus on actual skills and concepts over certs at this point.

what programming jobs are there in security or how do they go hand and hand. I really like security but I really development/cloud computing(future)

ptilsen

Malware/attack creation, reverse malware analysis, vulnerability creation, pentesting. Software engineering itself can and will have security requirements, and some organizations have engineers who are specifically there to ensure applications are designed and programmed securely.