What does Senior mean to you? (Job Titles)

TheNewITGuy

I have to sorta side with danitykane on this one. You've mentioned a few times you're learning from Senior folks etc which by all means would put you in a more Jr role regardless of job title. I see you've also gone from an Microsoft/Service Desk type role in the past 6 months to a Network Engineer - is this being done by simply passing your CCNA, CCNA Voice and CCNA Security in what? a 4 month span? You've also noted you plan on completing your CCNP/CCNP: Security by year end? Either my facts are incorrect or did Santa bring you the gift of omnisciency? I know for a fact the CCNP exams are extremely challenging unless either a) you have the experience or b) know the answers - which since you've jumped from a service desk tech to a network engineer in such a small time; I dont feel that your experience may be the key here.

I wish you the best of luck.

Iristheangel

LoL. This isn't the direction I assumed this thread would go but here goes...

Yes, your facts are wrong. 6 months? I've been at my job for over a year now. I posted a pretty indepth thread when I was hired at my current position. Recently I went from being a consultant to a FTE role with a pretty sizable raise at the same company but that's about the only change that's happened recently

Prior to that, I was working as a security analyst full-time for about 2.5 years while doing both independent contracting work through Onforce.com and Workmarket and trying an internship at at MSP to see if that was a fit (wasn't. Figured that out less than 3 months in - posted about that in some detail as well). I got my CCNA about 2 years ago (end of 2011 when I was working on my undergrad for WGU). I probably posted about that in November or December of 2011. Got my CCNA Security and CCNA Voice last year. I know I posted about that. Still working on my CCNP. I believe my original 2013 certification goal was to finish the CCNP R&S and Security because I pretty much was used to easy CCNA exams that only took a month or two to study for. Once I started hitting the CCNP books and realizing the content was a lot more extensive, I later went back and posted in the same thread about how I'd probably let the Security slide until next year. Changed that goal in my signature awhile ago too. CCNP has been a beast but a fun beast which is why I have an ongoing thread about my study goals and where I'm at in the process I guess if you can accuse me of one thing and be right about it, it's being too zealous in my goals at the beginning of the year before I knew what I was getting myself into but based on my posts in the last few months, I think it's pretty obvious that I readjusted those goals to a more realistic timespan

Yes, I do learn from senior network engineers at my job. I doubt there will be a day I stop learning from my peers but there are few people that are seniors above me and there are a few admins below me. I suspect it will be that way for quite some time in my career until I'm starting to get more grey hairs. :P

As far as what you would title "junior" vs "senior," I guess that would be the point of this thread, no? As I said, in terms of experience and knowledge, I definitely would say I'm junior compared to some of the titans on here or ones that I work with. I definitely make no claims on being a senior network engineer. In terms of my job title and responsibilities, I fit the bill as network engineer. As I said, I head networking projects, design site build-outs, deploy my designs, etc without guidance of anyone other than the network architect for architectural decisions. Whether you would take one look at my experience and hire me as a network engineer is another point entirely and I guess it's irrelevant unless you're interviewing me next.

Figured I might as well post my Cisco credentials with certification dates for the heck of it:


I've spent a lot of time on this forum encouraging people to go get experience before they ever touch CCNP material. If I was going to lie or BS my way through certifications, I wouldn't have wasted money on all the new equipment I just bought, paid for the books, or keep updating the Route thread I have going. :P

Hope that answers some misconceptions you had and we can now back to the original topic of the thread

Mrock4

I was a junior engineer until I was a senior engineer. Who cares????

And Iris' skills surpass that of some senior engineers, so I would be careful making assumptions based on titles only.

Call me crazy, I place more value in someone's skills over their title, education, or certifications.

apr911

Id also be careful making assumptions based on how long someone has been in a roll... Its part of the reason I hate "experience" requirements measured in years when I see job postings.

For most "Senior" admins, its just a title. Im a "senior" admin but when I look at what I do know and dont know I couldnt feel any more junior; especially when I compare myself to some other "senior" admins. And yet, I like to think those same admins I compare myself to and fall short of on some topics, make the same comparison to me on other topics.

Master Of Puppets

Iristheangel wrote: »

I've spent a lot of time on this forum encouraging people to go get experience before they ever touch CCNP material.

Probably a little out of topic but this really is very good advice. I used to get into the advanced stuff too early and didn't really get much out of it. Now that I have hands-on and done what's on the exams a dozen times, the CCNP is coming a lot easier.

dave330i

blargoe wrote: »

Senior "should" indicate that a person is a subject matter expert in their particular area, surpassing the base requirements of the role in most aspects.

I like this.

TheNewITGuy

I don't buy it - to each their own. labbing != experience end of story. Reading the FLG != experience. The only way you get experience is by being in the trenches fixing it every day in and day out. You can show me as many pieces of paper as you feel so inclined.

Also 2.5 years through Onforce (legacy computerrepair.com) and Workmarket and a 'trial' at an MSP and then as a consultant.. impressive, but the trifecta of certifications (CCNA RS, Voice, Security) doesnt really show specialization.

With regard to MRock touting your skillset - maybe I'm oblivious, but you give no technical advice in any of the forums, but you definitely do jump in when it comes to certification advice.

dave330i

TheNewITGuy wrote: »

The only way you get experience is by being in the trenches fixing it every day in and day out. You can show me as many pieces of paper as you feel so inclined.

No. Just because a solution works, doesn't mean it's the right solution.

instant000

TheNewITGuy:

Is it worthwhile to work so hard to discredit a person?

I sincerely believe that Iristheangel works hard and is not a dumper or paper tiger. Heck! I used her notes to help pass the SWITCH exam! If you are going to **** the test, why are you taking notes?!

This forum discourages ****, and educates forum members about the risks of them.

The dates that certifications are gained do not show all the prior work that was done to get to that level, nor does it account for the ability that some have to retain information and/or pass exams. In case you did not know this: Passing CCNA, CCNA-Voice, and CCNA-Security in a 4-month span is not a great achievement. I could study for and pass the associate-level exams for Data Center, Voice, Wireless, and Design in a four month span (heck, probably way sooner than that, dependent upon day-to-day work load). That proves nothing but what we already know: the NA-level concentration exams are just meant to provide an introduction to an area, sufficient to maintain a small network utilizing the technology. Someone who has figured out how they learn most effectively and is able to quickly learn new information can clear such exams in a relatively short period of time. The beast at the associate level is the full CCNA. Everyone knows this.

Is it worthwhile to join an IT certification forum if your main interest is to talk negatively of IT certifications?

Iristheangel

TheNewITGuy wrote: »

I don't buy it - to each their own. labbing != experience end of story. Reading the FLG != experience. The only way you get experience is by being in the trenches fixing it every day in and day out. You can show me as many pieces of paper as you feel so inclined.

Also 2.5 years through Onforce (legacy computerrepair.com) and Workmarket and a 'trial' at an MSP and then as a consultant.. impressive, but the trifecta of certifications (CCNA RS, Voice, Security) doesnt really show specialization.

With regard to MRock touting your skillset - maybe I'm oblivious, but you give no technical advice in any of the forums, but you definitely do jump in when it comes to certification advice.

I'm not sure what your point is here. In your first post, you claim that I got all these certifications in a 6 month period (I didn't. Posted my Cisco credentials), pretty much blatantly said I must have dumped, and said I was in a service desk role 6 months ago (I wasn't. Prior to this job, I was a security analyst over a year ago). I pretty much corrected you on this point and somehow it's jumped to somehow implying that I claim my labbing or book reading as experience and I lack specialization? I never said labbing or reading a book equated to experience. My job counts as experience. It's no secret that I made a switch from security to networking a little over a year ago. It's pretty well documented throughout these forums. Do I claim to be a senior network engineer? No. Do I claim to be all knowing? Nope. I think I pretty much go over my weak spots in my Route thread.

I got lucky in a lot of ways. I was able to get a great job in networking that put me in the trenches from day one and bypassed the whole NOC and the usual ways people get into networking. It wasn't because of piece of paper (though it may have helped get my foot originally in the door): It was because I passed the technical interviews. You can call me whatever you like but if I'm a junior-without-the-junior-title, then cool. I'm one of the highest paid juniors you'll ever meet :P

As far as Mrock knowing my abilities, we know each other outside these forums and discuss technical topics almost daily. But sure, I guess the CCIE wouldn't know a technical person if they're chatting with one every day

N2IT

I've tried both strategies and have found experience works much better for me than self study or other forms of studying. I learn by doing so doing a task at work increases my chances of learning faster with more content while retaining that information. Back to the senior part, there has to be certain time element for someone to be called senior. 6 month in theory could provide that but I feel that's unrealistic. IMO a senior is someone who has been in the environment or a particular part of a technology for a certain duration. ~2 - 5 years IMO would be a fair amount of time. Like some have mentioned some people may be a quick study and spend a great deal of their time learning that particular technology. They maybe an exception, however I found that most people need AT LEAST 2 years to pick up something where they are answering the questions for employees and answering them right. Most true seniors without a shadow of a doubt have 5 years from my limited experience. Normally if a guy or gal has 5 years of experience working in a niche technology or skill usually can deliver at a high level with a good deal of efficiency. Sure desktop support or service desk you can ramp up very quickly, but more advanced roles take longer. 6 months just isn't enough IMO generally speaking.

networker050184

Ok, we get it. Some people are a little touchy on the topic. Lets keep it on topic and professional or let's not post at all.

Roguetadhg

I don't think people should get hung up on titles as much as they do. This is from my own experience about this field and others...

"Senior desktop support secret agent"
"Alpha Code-Monkey"
"Senior Network Engineer"

I can create my own fluffed title, too:

"Demi-God Electro-Mechnical Support." Because I worked on power generators and switches. so It's both to me.

My point is this -
It doesn't really matter what's the position you see, it's the description, experience, and needs of the business that matters.

NetworkVeteran

danitykane wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, how can you interview Senior or intermediate Network Engineers when you are still a Junior Network Engineer?

Taking the personal context out of the question, more senior engineers often will work with more junior engineers. There are several benefits to such an interview: (a) testing for interpersonal fit; (b) testing for the ability to politely and concisely explain technology; (c) testing technical knowledge in a limited domain where the junior engineer is very knowledgeable; or (d) as an initial screen of the more senior engineer's general knowledge. There have even been times when a senior engineer who's less technically knowledgeable than the junior was hired due to a strong non-technical skill-set.

NetworkVeteran

As for the title, a "senior" engineer at a smaller company typically has 3+ years of experience and at a larger company has 5+ years of experience. Beyond that? I've seen too many clueless senior engineers to put much stock in a title. I'd put more stock in the job responsibilities or the dollar figure the employer is actually paying them.

pert

My definition is that Senior anything should be expected to be capable of doing/fixing/designing anything within reason in their dept without NEEDING assistance. I'm not saying they can't get help, but if they actually need it theyre not senior. In large enterprise where multiple disciplines are required, Senior would be the same, except for one specific discipline.

whatthehell

IMHO, a Senior title rarely means anything. Despite being in some form of Support for all of my IT career, I have interacted with many different branches of IT, and many different "Seniors" who don't know jack and mainly got the title because:
1. They kissed some serious bootay
2. They were at the company long enough, and just were given the title (didn't earn it)
3. They were given the title to allow them to reach a higher salary range (didn't earn it)
4. They worked on "special" projects, screwing their teammates by making them do more of his/her work, and making some VP happy (political reason, and related to #1)

On the other hand, there are times when I have worked with true Seniors who should actually be more like Team Leads or higher, and are seriously BAMFs!

I think titles are deceiving and, from a support perspective, the person you want to speak with, ask questions to, work on cases with, etc. is the person that everyone goes to, not the person with the highest title or longest tenure at a particular company.
Anyway, just my 2 cents.

NetworkVeteran

whatthehell wrote: »

4. They worked on "special" projects, screwing their teammates by making them do more of his/her work, and making some VP happy (political reason, and related to #1)

I just wanted to point out, I very occasionally see this attitude from co-workers, and it's rather counter-productive. The CEO is the ultimate boss of the company (ignoring the board for a moment). If one person does the job assigned to them, while a second person anticipate and takes a risk and accomplishes what the CEO really needs, that second person is almost always more successful. I don't write my CEO platitudes. I even skipped our last 1:1. I do achieve his agenda.

Crikey

I've done fine (so far) working in IT for 20 years without "Sr." in front of my "title". Only the zeros in my paycheck mean diddly to me.

colemic

whatthehell wrote: »

IMHO, a Senior title rarely means anything. Despite being in some form of Support for all of my IT career, I have interacted with many different branches of IT, and many different "Seniors" who don't know jack and mainly got the title because:
1. They kissed some serious bootay
2. They were at the company long enough, and just were given the title (didn't earn it)
3. They were given the title to allow them to reach a higher salary range (didn't earn it)
4. They worked on "special" projects, screwing their teammates by making them do more of his/her work, and making some VP happy (political reason, and related to #1)

On the other hand, there are times when I have worked with true Seniors who should actually be more like Team Leads or higher, and are seriously BAMFs!

I think titles are deceiving and, from a support perspective, the person you want to speak with, ask questions to, work on cases with, etc. is the person that everyone goes to, not the person with the highest title or longest tenure at a particular company.
Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Regarding #2, I don't know that I agree with that one. Many places have seniority rules in effect based on longevity, that comes with different responsibilities, perks, etc. It is quite suitable for some organizations.

Asif Dasl

Crikey wrote: »

I've done fine (so far) working in IT for 20 years without "Sr." in front of my "title". Only the zeros in my paycheck mean diddly to me.

It does matter to people though, a "Sr." job title. Maslow's theory of human motivation reserves a spot for a "Fancy job title". An interesting read here.

When I think of a Senior job title it means you have the ability to solve problems with little guidance from superiors, you are the go to person, a problem solver. Of course some places compensate based on job title so, it doesn't mean the same thing for everyone.

howdoidothat

Senior titles mean nothing.
The reason is there are so many liers in linkedin and in CV that are just a normal engineer or what ever and they put senior infront of it.
Your a senior wow you want fries with that?

jibbajabba

In consulting, in my experience anyway, the difference between a Technical Consultant and Senior Technical Consultant is in the soft skills. You can put a Senior with a white board in front of an Executive team who is also backing up his white board sessions with the technical expertise while a Technical Consultant is as technical, but less experienced in talking to a tough crowd.

kohr-ah

jibbajabba wrote: »

In consulting, in my experience anyway, the difference between a Technical Consultant and Senior Technical Consultant is in the soft skills. You can put a Senior with a white board in front of an Executive team who is also backing up his white board sessions with the technical expertise while a Technical Consultant is as technical, but less experienced in talking to a tough crowd.

This has been my case so far with Senior roles. A Senior Network Engineer is an engineer that was both corporate(or client when I did consulting) facing which could display and explain the issue and solution that was going in place. He/She was expected to have technical skills but the soft/social skills were more important and technical was less as he/she was usually the final point of escalation.

ccnpninja

I definitely agree with Networker050184, IristheAngel and Darkerz.

kurosaki00

networker050184 wrote: »

To me a Senior is someone that is at a higher level than their fellow team mates. The go to guy so to speak. Someone that can be leaned on to handle the more difficult tasks and can help mentor the more junior members.

Pretty much what Mr Mod said. I would like to add the person you usually go before jumping to your supervisor or manager. Like... network issue, cant fix it, go to colleague... cant fix it, go to senior

doobu

instant000 wrote: »

Please note: I am referring to senior in job titles. I am not referring to "Senior Member" in these forums.

I seriously ask this question because I do not feel "Senior".

THERE IS SO MUCH THAT I DO NOT KNOW!

I would really like an explanation.

Thanks.

Overworked.

dou2ble

I agree with most everyone's said here. But I didn't see anyone mention that one company or firms titles carry more weight than another's. Since I'm in DOD now I'm going to pick on a few IT companies. SAIC and most small companies "SR" positions are really middle or a step below even though they get paid like "SR". 75% of the time I'm unimpressed with them. BAH "SR" guys and gals normally do impress. In commercial if I saw "SR" I expected that they could talk to upper management or at least sell the job, lead the team, mentor and be the one left in charge when the Manager left. There were many times I went to client and the SR Network Admin or Sr Windows Administrator had the title but couldn't execute. Or at least they definitely weren't equivalent to a Cisco SR Network Engineer or Microsoft Senior Consultant. At these same sites the Linux Sr Admin were always impressive since that title seems harder to come by.

UnixGuy

IT titles = means absolutely nothing to me.

darkeries

there are Real seniors and people who THINK they are seniors,

quiet frankly 90 percent think they are seniors in here p