how far can you get without a degree?

Hi all, just curious on how necessary a degree is in the IT industry. I only have 3 years at a vocational school for Networking and security. I just started a desktop support job about four months ago making 30k a year.

Is it possible to move into a better position at a different company within a couple of years? What Certs should I obtain to be a network admin and what kind of salary should I expect? Did I make a mistake not going to college?

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neo9006

Well, I think we all agree do not get 80k in debt, I can't say anything about WGU since I do not go there and I am going to a brick and mortar university. As for what Polynomial said, i probably would agree with about the bachelor's degree of today is becoming the high school diploma of yesterday. I wouldn't say you need to have one either, I have seen jobs that only require a an Associate degree or high school diploma for that matter. I agree about Iris, she has the degrees, exp, and certs. That will carry her all the way for whatever she decides to do. As for me, I have exp in another field so that is my ticket on some things, but that is another story. Your young, if I had to do things over again at my age and was your age, hell get the exp for now, go to college at night, take online classes or whatever you have. If you get your degree by 25, you got the exp, the degree, and probably the certs to go with it. I find that hard work counts for something. Down the road when you want to ball, then you have everything you need.

As for what one poster said, 500k with no degree, what are they doing inventing the next big app or something? I like someone to tell me what I am missing.

geekboss

Polynomial wrote: »

The problem here geekboss, is that you already made up your mind. You need to approach this topic with a more balanced approach.

The complication is the bachelor's degree of today is slowly becoming the high school diploma of yesterday. Everyone has them and its becoming "expected".

Take Iris's story who is also into networks. (Sorry Iris!) She decided to merge the affordability and accreditation of WGU degrees with highly relevant technical ability. She will outperform you in the job market because she built the holy triangle of certification, degrees and experience.

Its like fighting a war with a navy, army and air force instead of just one branch.

its just that the more people I talk to who are already in that position say that a degree isn't as big of a deal as people on these fourms make it out to be. I'm not going to go back to school and get myself in student loan debt. College isn't the new high school, people just go back to school when the economy gets bad.

neo9006

Not really true about the last statement about people just go back to school when the economy is bad. I been trying to earn my degree for awhile and it was not just because of the economy. For me its about proving to myself I could do it. I want to provide better for my wife and I. I still work full time and am taking 12 hours now. There are others that are doing the same. College isn't the new high school, your right, you just have to have a battle plan on how you want to do things. I know exp counts at any job, it is what leads to a better job. Your 2 year will only take you so far, take it from someone that has one. Like I said in my previous post, unless your going to stay at this job the rest of your life, then why not get that Bachelors or Masters. It won't hurt you.

TeKniques

I would caution against using anecdotal evidence as a form of proof that college is not worth it. If someone works hard and puts in a lot of effort into a quality degree program then it WILL pay off for them. The biggest concern with going to college in my mind is the amount of money it costs, and that's where YOU as the consumer have to do your research and pick the best option with what you can afford. However, to say college isn't worth it on face value is not entirely accurate ... you just need to make good informed decisions and it will be worth it.

typfromdaco

I personally feel that having the mindset that you can achieve the exact same thing as someone with a degree is a crapshoot. I completely understand that it may not matter as much in the beginning of your career, and by skipping education and focusing on gaining experience that you will find more next level jobs than the person who went to college instead. That being said, in about 10-15 years after you have accumulated experience, I guarantee that there will be someone who has the same experience and certifications as you, but they have that one thing you don't- a degree.

My .02 cents

Iristheangel

Another thing to consider is that networking is in the process of changing with things like SDN, Openflow, etc coming into the field. It's completely plausible that you become successful enough to get that 60-80K a year and then become obsolete when you're required to understand some programming and you're up against a bunch of CS/IT/EE/etc majors who didn't have to teach themselves how to do some basic coding because it was part of their curriculum.

Can you make it without a degree? It's pretty obvious: Yes, but it's harder. If you could get a degree without incurring tens of thousands of dollars of debt, why don't you go for it to stay competitive and to give yourself the best chance of beating out the dozens of other 20-something year olds who have the same certifications as you and a degree to top it off? It's already been mentioned in this thread that there are schools to pick from that are non-profit and won't get you in piles of debt. That excuse is dead. Don't base your choices off anecdotal evidence or what feels like the easiest short term path (skip college and just get a couple certs). The reality is that on average, a college graduate makes tens of thousands of dollars more than their counterpart without a degree and there is statistical evidence showing that. Are there a lot of people out there getting degrees and not finding jobs? Sure. But that's factoring people with less competitive or desirable majors in the job field such as liberal arts, history, etc.

geekboss

Main reason I don't go is because I doubt I could finish. Too much stress. plus I don't want to spend every waking moment of my life working on a degree. I'm not even 20 and want to have a life.

mistabrumley89

I'm still in the military, but every day I am worried about stepping into the civilian sector without a degree and only certifications/some job experience. So many doors are immediately closed just from not having a degree. Do you want to risk losing your dream job over something you could have done by taking a couple of classes per semester? Luckily I can start out with 30 hrs just from my military background, and probably another 15-25 with certifications depending on which degree path I take. Do school while you are young. It's hard to get into the groove of things once you have been out of school for a while.

typfromdaco

I think most all of us "adult learners" had the mindset that we were young and didn't want to waste time on a degree in our youth; and that is why we are working on them in our 30's and up. That sounds like a more legitimate reason for not pursuing education, because you are comfortable with where you are at right now. I don't want other people to read this post and assume that going into IT without a degree and getting a $100K+ salary is the status quo.

dave330i

geekboss wrote: »

Main reason I don't go is because I doubt I could finish. Too much stress. plus I don't want to spend every waking moment of my life working on a degree. I'm not even 20 and want to have a life.

I don't see you moving above junior level with your current mindset.

stryder144

Take it from me, getting your degree now will give you much greater peace of mind than worrying about not being competitive in the job market when you are 30+. I am 42 and starting over from a military career. Due to apathy, shift work, and deployments, I blew off a lot of my education when it would have been easier/smarter for me to just get it done. Now, I'm not only starting over, career-wise, but I'm also changing degree plans. As such, that means I'm starting over (for the most part) educationally. Add in a full-time job, a part-time job, and a family, and you should start to see a very clear picture of why it is best to get it done when you are young.

Having said all that, and taking what you have posted into consideration, maybe you should go to the BA in 4 Weeks site. While outdated, it gives some really good tips on how to knock out college credits, via CLEP/DSST exams. Doing so, at your own pace, may well be the ticket for you. You could knock out the boring subjects by studying them, grasping them, then taking the tests. That would make getting a degree a lot easier, down the line, should you decide it is essential to your future plans. Not to mention, doing it at your pace would relieve you of both short-term and long-term stress.

Ultimately, though, it is up to you to decide where you are going, career-wise. If you want to get to a point where you are making a very good living, you must figure out what it will take to get there. Once that is determined, you will need to start that particular journey. So, if that means waiting until you are older to start a formal education, so be it. Just be mindful of the experiences of others (such as myself) before making any decisions.

As an aside, in lieu of my degree, both jobs that I have noted my military career as a suitable substitute. Having said that, though, I know for a fact that several companies canned my resume because the position required a bachelor degree. YMMV.

fredrikjj

For all but a select few going to college will be worth it, but it's almost entirely due to the signaling effect of having that degree. I regret not finishing mine, even if it was in social sciences, because people who hire usually aren't interested in evaluating a candidate beyond putting them in this or that pile based on what formal education they have. It's only not worth it if the opportunity cost of going is overwhelming, like if you have just started a business and would have to give that up, but those people probably don't need to ask on a message board.

CCNTrainee

LarryDaMan wrote: »

But how about at 50 years old, still want to be configuring routers? Don't be shortsighted. A lot of people profess profound love for networking, but maybe the you in 20 years will be thankful that the you now got that degree.

I like how people drop this line... the boy has 3 decades before he even hits that age, assuming that he even lives that long to see such an age. Most people change when they get older, and will probably be one of the statistics of having a family, hell he may even change to a different career field by then. Now days, Anyone can get a degree at anytime, anywhere at their own pace. Why not just work a job while earning your degree, nobody HAS to get it while they are young. I know too many people that went to college after High school completed their degrees and still spent years after college collecting unemployment because they can't find a job, or did find a job that has nothing to do with the degree they spent all their money and time achieving.

Unless you going to a school that has Prestige reputation in the Major you are trying to earn, all you did was go into debt for a piece of paper that only holds some weight to HR.

DoubleNNs

dave330i wrote: »

I don't see you moving above junior level with your current mindset.

That's not such a bad thing tho. Everyone matures at their own pace and time. And it's better that the OP is honest w/ himself now than lie and waste money on a degree he eventually drops.

If he finds himself struggling to get above Jr level, he can always re-self-evaluate, and go back for a degree, get higher certs, or alter his way of thinking. Attitudes are very malleable.

petedude

typfromdaco wrote: »

I think most all of us "adult learners" had the mindset that we were young and didn't want to waste time on a degree in our youth; and that is why we are working on them in our 30's and up. That sounds like a more legitimate reason for not pursuing education, because you are comfortable with where you are at right now. . .

The world is changing. Part of our current employment predicament is that for a long time, the US educational system was simply flat out failing the country. If a high school diploma can't be trusted as proof that you can write and think effectively, what's an employer to do? Expect the next level up and hope it covers things, therefore people need bachelor's degrees for all kinds of jobs now that they wouldn't have before.

A lot of today's "adult learners" didn't want to spend time or money on a degree earlier (and to be fair, there are educational options that weren't available then). There are also, indeed, a few who've grown complacent/comfortable and simply don't want to do the work. All of these folks could be in for a huge surprise if/when they enter the job market if they don't finish at least an undergraduate degree.

tjh87

Wow, this is a really good thread. I am going to take a slightly different approach than some other people on here. I agree with many that a Bachelor's degree is quickly becoming the "standard." I recently transitioned jobs and in my search quickly realized that almost every posting asked for a degree or an additional five years of experience. But to be honest, I still think a lot of places prefer experience over the degree (at least for technical positions). The past two jobs that I have been in required a Bachelor's degree and 4 years experience or 8-10 years of experience without a degree. I got both without a Bachelor's degree and without 8-10 years of experience. I have just over 7 years of experience and I just recently finished my AS in CIS. Most of the time, I think the job write-ups are a best case scenario. Now, I obviously understand the value that a degree holds, which is why I am currently pursuing my Bachelor's. I'm not sure what area of IT you are interested in, but I can nearly guarantee that if you get your CCIE (or even CCNP) and you are good at what you do, you will have a job that pays well. Personally, I'm not content with "pays well" or staying in a technical role for the next 20 years. This is where the degree comes in. I think in IT (and maybe other fields) that a degree really begins to pay off for management roles. I was in the OP's shoes not too long ago. I thought college was a waste of my time. I saw myself making money and gaining experience while my high school classmates were stuck in school dealing with student loans. With online colleges and night schools setup the way they are now, it makes it hard to make excuses not to continue your education. In 3-5 years, you will likely know exactly what you want to do with your career. This may be the best time to start toward a degree relevant to your career path. You will likely have a better job by then and will be able to better afford schooling. In my case, the experience paid off more than any degree could have. But I am not nearly naive enough to believe that a college degree is a waste of time or it doesn't hold weight. I just think there is a time and a place for it.

Master Of Puppets

geekboss wrote: »

Main reason I don't go is because I doubt I could finish. Too much stress. plus I don't want to spend every waking moment of my life working on a degree. I'm not even 20 and want to have a life.

If you bring a little more will power to it, it can be quite beneficial. For example, I am your age. By 25-26 I will have a bachelors and a masters degree(both relevant) + a lot of certs + years of very good experience. There are a lot of people like that and cutting something out of the experience+certs+degree trio, won't help you. I just don't see a real reason to not get all of them. Is it hard? Yes, very much so. But that should never stop anyone from doing something, quite the opposite in fact. It will pay off.

CCNTrainee

petedude wrote: »

The world is changing. Part of our current employment predicament is that for a long time, the US educational system was simply flat out failing the country. If a high school diploma can't be trusted as proof that you can write and think effectively, what's an employer to do? Expect the next level up and hope it covers things, therefore people need bachelor's degrees for all kinds of jobs now that they wouldn't have before.

A lot of today's "adult learners" didn't want to spend time or money on a degree earlier (and to be fair, there are educational options that weren't available then). There are also, indeed, a few who've grown complacent/comfortable and simply don't want to do the work. All of these folks could be in for a huge surprise if/when they enter the job market if they don't finish at least an undergraduate degree.

Still doesn't change the fact that there are many with a Degree and still can't find a job, or get a job that doesn't apply to the degree they "worked hard" to get. I know many that have BAs yet they are collecting welfare or still living with thier parents....

Dieg0M

A Degree is useless in the IT industry in my opinion. Not only will it put you in debt but once you get an interview, HR will completely ignore it. Some people will say that it will help you get interviews and I have found this to be completely untrue. I have no degree and got to the interview process for 100% of the jobs I applied to. Most CCIE's I know have no degrees. Also, remember that the time spent on a degree could be time spent on real life experience. What would you prefer a Network Engineer with 4 years of experience and a degree or a Network Engineer with 8 years of experience and no degree? Of course, in the long run the choice is harder to make as a Network Engineer with 16 years of experience and a degree would be, for some, better then a Network Engineer with 20 years of experience and no degree. I would still pick the Engineer with 20 years of experience because experience and knowledge can never be replaced with a piece of paper. I have seen firsthand in the military some officers (that have a degree) and that are completely useless. This is why I am so bitter with people that have a degree and feel like they are entitled to have a higher salary or a higher position because of a piece of paper.

Unfortunately, my opinion and personal experience does not matter in this brainwashed paper-cert oriented society. The truth is to be "safe" you should eventually get a degree as some firms will require a degree to get the job or to progress up the ranks. So yes, a degree will limit you in how far you go but only in the long run. This is why I tell people to get certs and experience as quick as possible and get your foot in the door. Once you are in the industry get a degree working at your own pace over several years. This is the best way to be efficient with your time. This method also avoids you to waste time if you realize you don't like the industry you started working in.

networker050184

I'll go ahead and sum up this conversation as it goes the same way every time. For the most part people with degrees think they are necessary (of course why else would they get it!) and people without out them see that they are not a necessity (of course why else would they not get one!).

In the end it's obviously not a requirement as there are plenty of successful people in this industry without a degree. Then again, certs aren't a requirement either yet we all get them. Degrees or certifications are both optional qualifications that can help you get a job. The more qualifications you bring to the table the better your chances are for success.

The people that lack the work ethic to get either are probably not going to go very far.

LarryDaMan

CCNTrainee wrote: »

Still doesn't change the fact that there are many with a Degree and still can't find a job, or get a job that doesn't apply to the degree they "worked hard" to get. I know many that have BAs yet they are collecting welfare or still living with thier parents....

Dieg0M wrote: »

A Degree is useless in the IT industry in my opinion. Not only will it put you in debt but once you get an interview, HR will completely ignore it.

It is very clear you're both biased against higher education.

Facts are facts. The statistics overwhelmingly support the fact that college graduates make more and have lower unemployment rates than high school graduates... and that high school graduates make more and have lower unemployment rates than dropouts.

Yes, people can graduate high school without being able to read. Yes, people can earn a degree and still be a dummy. Yes, dropouts can become billionaires. These are outliers! A higher education still gives you the best shot.

Edit: What is this thing about a degree just being a piece of paper? You can LEARN something in college, believe or not! It is not that much different than a certification, you have to seek the knowledge and not just the paper.

Khaos1911

Personally, I'm going to war (career) with every bullet (cert/degree/knowledge/personality) I can possibly have. Why limit yourself?

networker050184

LarryDaMan wrote: »

Facts are facts. The statistics overwhelmingly support the fact that college graduates make more and have lower unemployment rates than high school graduates... and that high school graduates make more and have lower unemployment rates than dropouts.

Those are nation wide statistics that cover the entire work force (from janitor to doctor). I think they would be quite different for IT only, but again it would probably still back up your opinion.

Iristheangel

CCNTrainee wrote: »

Still doesn't change the fact that there are many with a Degree and still can't find a job, or get a job that doesn't apply to the degree they "worked hard" to get. I know many that have BAs yet they are collecting welfare or still living with thier parents....

There you go: BAs. The kind of degree and major you get is important. Go look up the unemployment rate or average salary of a CS or EE major. Tell me that there's not a great ROI there or that a high percentage of people who have those degrees can't find work. You can't.

The reality is that I wish I could have gone to school earlier, completed a CS degree when I had time to devote solely to school, and started my career in IT earlier. I've done pretty well for myself with an IT degree, a handful of certs and some experience but the reality is that I could have done better in my career and education if I had made the right choices earlier on. Am I going to sit around all day and regretting it? No. Certainly not. But if someone asks on the forum for some advice, I'm going to give it to them from the best place possible and hope they do better than I did.

typfromdaco

@Diego

Using a CCIE as a point of reference gives a false perception because of how difficult the exam is and how few people actually have the certification. The average IT guy will get their CCNP, and perhaps hope to get their CCIE.

In the example you gave, you always list the person without a degree as having more experience than the person with a degree. Online education has allowed people to continue doing their job and gaining the experience, but to work on the civilian credentials at the same time. In reality, the scenario has a guy with his BS, 20 years experience, and his CCNP vs a guy with a HS Diploma, 20 years experience, and a CCNP.

I completely understand the frustration with having officers that are completely useless, but I used those emotions to invest myself in finishing my BS before getting out of the Army.

Once again, my .02 cents.

Iristheangel

Khaos1911 wrote: »

Personally, I'm going to war (career) with every bullet (cert/degree/knowledge/personality) I can possibly have. Why limit yourself?

This I like. +1 to rep. It's pretty much the simplest way of explaining why we do what we do

Dieg0M

typfromdaco wrote: »

@Diego
In reality, the scenario has a guy with his BS, 20 years experience, and his CCNP vs a guy with a HS Diploma, 20 years experience, and a CCNP.

If someone does NOT get a degree, it must be for the right reasons. If someone chooses not to get a degree because he's lazy it makes a huge difference compared to the person who doesn't get a degree in order to get more certs (and be more technically advanced). This said, I would expect the guy without a degree to have maybe another CCNP specialty or even a CCIE.
The truth is we all have an expiration date on our lives and it's important to optimize what we do in our careers. This is why I don't believe a degree is the best way to go in the IT industry. A degree in my eyes is just a piece of paper any idiot with enough time and dedication can get. It's the same for a cert the only exception is that you get direct applicable job knowledge from it.
Also, a lot of people talk about salary statistics of people having a degree compared to people who don't. Can someone show me a chart of this concerning IT? I understand the utility of a degree in other professions but I don't think these statistics applies to IT.

Zorodzai

In my part of the world - no degree = hitting a brick wall in one's career. I have vast experience but many a time I don't get past the HR door simply because I don't have that so called "worthless piece of paper".....IMO, better to have one and not need it opposed to not having one and needing it.

redz

Okay okay okay, I'll finally bite and join in the fun here.

To address the original question, "how far can you get without a degree?", my answer is: As far as you're willing to work for.

I have no degree. I've worked in desktop support, systems administration, systems engineering, security engineering, (IT/Acq) management consulting, and GRC. I'm doing fine for myself at the moment.

Do I feel like, right now, as a 28 year old, I would be better off if I had a degree? No. This would have cost me four years of experience; it's unlikely I would be anywhere near where I currently am with nine years of experience.

Do I feel like I should, at some point, get a degree? Yes. It's a good long-term investment, as I am approaching ten years of experience in the industry, if I want to move into a CIO/CISO role at some point, obtaining those positions (and moving back into management consulting) will make me more competitive; it will make that job search easier.

College isn't a requirement, and you can go as far as you want without a degree. That doesn't mean that route is easy or recommended. It has just worked for me to this point.

Qord

Dieg0M wrote: »

Can someone show me a chart of this concerning IT? I understand the utility of a degree in other professions but I don't think these statistics applies to IT.

This is the closest I've seen:
Forget the stereotype. Here's the real scoop on IT workers.