how far can you get without a degree?

CCNTrainee

LarryDaMan wrote: »

It is very clear you're both biased against higher education.

Facts are facts. The statistics overwhelmingly support the fact that college graduates make more and have lower unemployment rates than high school graduates... and that high school graduates make more and have lower unemployment rates than dropouts.

Yes, people can graduate high school without being able to read. Yes, people can earn a degree and still be a dummy. Yes, dropouts can become billionaires. These are outliers! A higher education still gives you the best shot.

Edit: What is this thing about a degree just being a piece of paper? You can LEARN something in college, believe or not! It is not that much different than a certification, you have to seek the knowledge and not just the paper.

The point I WAS trying to make is that it is not required to get a Degree right away while you are still "Young". Everyone likes to throw this logic down people's throats that you need to go to college after high school to get a future. I NEVER did say that higher education was a waste of time, but if you are going in to expect something at the end of the rainbow once you graduate then they are a fool to think it is some magical ticket that will grant you 100K+ at the door. You can get a job at lower pay which gets you experience, all the while getting your certs and degree at your OWN PACE. Do you see my point now??

The reason I say piece of paper, is because I learn in a different way for that matter. Uncle Sam has taught me with the hands-on part but everything else that I know is from me going out on my own and finding my own resources. There is a lot of material you can find on the Internet for free, and you can pick people’s brains from similar social groups kinda of like this forums. My main teachers have been the internet, people in the field, education sites that specialize in the discipline, and just the everyday people that like to share their experience. Wouldn’t it be just a piece of paper if I got it from some for-profit paper mill type of college, compared to somewhere prestigious like Carnegie Mellon, MIT, Harvard Ext, etc...

dave330i

Dieg0M wrote: »

A degree in my eyes is just a piece of paper any idiot with enough time and dedication can get. It's the same for a cert the only exception is that you get direct applicable job knowledge from it.

Really need your eyes checked.

sethmo

redz wrote: »

Okay okay okay, I'll finally bite and join in the fun here.

To address the original question, "how far can you get without a degree?", my answer is: As far as you're willing to work for.

I have no degree. I've worked in desktop support, systems administration, systems engineering, security engineering, (IT/Acq) management consulting, and GRC. I'm doing fine for myself at the moment.

Do I feel like, right now, as a 28 year old, I would be better off if I had a degree? No. This would have cost me four years of experience; it's unlikely I would be anywhere near where I currently am with nine years of experience.

Do I feel like I should, at some point, get a degree? Yes. It's a good long-term investment, as I am approaching ten years of experience in the industry, if I want to move into a CIO/CISO role at some point, obtaining those positions (and moving back into management consulting) will make me more competitive; it will make that job search easier.

College isn't a requirement, and you can go as far as you want without a degree. That doesn't mean that route is easy or recommended. It has just worked for me to this point.

I am in a similar boat as you. I went did a year at a 4-year Uni then went to Vatterott trade school and received nothing more than my A+/N+ and start out in a mom and pop computer repair shop. Moved up from there to a larger computer repair shop where I contracted with small-medium businesses. I got my CCNA while at this job. From there, I got lucky and landed my current job which is a sys admin for a small local steel foundry.

You can go as high as you are willing to work towards without a degree, but plan on putting in years of experience to work your way up to the top. I am currently finishing up my associates at my community college in December, and plan on starting WGU next spring.

If I were to do it over again, I would have studied and gotten my A+/C+/CCNA/MCITP then started at my community college taking night or online classes while working whatever IT job I could.

CCNTrainee

Iristheangel wrote: »

There you go: BAs. The kind of degree and major you get is important. Go look up the unemployment rate or average salary of a CS or EE major. Tell me that there's not a great ROI there or that a high percentage of people who have those degrees can't find work. You can't.

The reality is that I wish I could have gone to school earlier, completed a CS degree when I had time to devote solely to school, and started my career in IT earlier. I've done pretty well for myself with an IT degree, a handful of certs and some experience but the reality is that I could have done better in my career and education if I had made the right choices earlier on. Am I going to sit around all day and regretting it? No. Certainly not. But if someone asks on the forum for some advice, I'm going to give it to them from the best place possible and hope they do better than I did.

You are telling me something that I already know and have always known, I think it is kind of funny to call me out just because I didn't put BS with the BA when I made my origianl comment. It works both ways but people don't seem to mention that Location plays a factor as well. Not to many people are willing to go to a Warzone to do IT work but it pays very well. So what if it takes time to get your degree, not everyone wants to be Politician right away and jump into management. I'll get my degree when I am good and ready because I sure as hell won't get into debt in getting one, not to mention if it isn't from a school with a prestigious reputation of a program, isn't it nothing more then a Piece of paper, What say you?

redz

sethmo wrote: »

If I were to do it over again, I would have studied and gotten my A+/C+/CCNA/MCITP then started at my community college taking night or online classes while working whatever IT job I could.

If I were to do it over, I would stand in brazen defiance and make the exact same career and educational choices that I have to this point. Spending my nights studying industry trends, emerging technologies, taking on freelance work, et al, has proven to be more lucrative than studying biology for elective credits (or whatever) to this point. But again, I don't consider my current business model sustainable as a long-term solution.

EDIT: wait, what's a C+?

typfromdaco

The first rule of C+ is that you don't talk about C+.

Iristheangel

CCNTrainee wrote: »

You are telling me something that I already know and have always known, I think it is kind of funny to call me out just because I didn't put BS with the BA when I made my origianl comment. It works both ways but people don't seem to mention that Location plays a factor as well. Not to many people are willing to go to a Warzone to do IT work but it pays very well. So what if it takes time to get your degree, not everyone wants to be Politician right away and jump into management. I'll get my degree when I am good and ready because I sure as hell won't get into debt in getting one, not to mention if it isn't from a school with a prestigious repuation of a program, isn't it nothing more then a Piece of paper, What say you?

I think you misunderstood the tone of my original post. I wasn't attempting to "call you out." Often when it is cited that more and more people are graduating and are not able to find a job, that stat is lumping in every kind of degree in every field. You mentioned BA so I specified that and continued on with my point. There's no offense to be taken in someone disagreeing with you. That's what makes these forums fun sometimes - finding a new perspective.

As far as a degree == useless paper if not from a prestigious college, I would disagree with that. I got my current job a month after I graduated from college and took a large jump into 6-figures. They absolutely will not hire someone without a degree - this is an HR policy and to override that, they would have to take that to the CIO to make an exception and I have never seen an exception made in a year and a half. Thanks to my degree, when the time came to transition from contractor to FTE, I slide by HR's requirements with ease. It also factored greatly into getting an interview with another prominent networking company in San Jose a year ago and another with Cisco. HR in both companies told me that they wouldn't even interview me for the position I was applying for without a degree (SE at Cisco and Network Engineer at A10).

Now you can say that you wouldn't be interested in a job for those companies if they wouldn't even look at you without a degree and that's fair but personally for me, if I didn't go for that piece of paper, I wouldn't have my current job, be in the tax bracket I'm in now, and have the same great job I have. It's true I might have a different job and might be getting some different experience but I don't think anyone can ever make a claim that having a degree has CLOSED doors for them but it certainly can be stated that not having a degree will close some doors

networker050184

Iristheangel wrote: »

HR in both companies told me that they wouldn't even interview me for the position I was applying for without a degree (SE at Cisco and Network Engineer at A10).

I'm not doubting someone told you that, but I personally know two SE's at Cisco that have no degree. I know people that work at pretty much all the major vendors that do not have college degrees.

Everyone

The answer is “it depends”. I’ve made it very far without one, but I also started 14 years ago. Back then it was easier to get in and move up without one. These days, not so much. By the time degrees became more important in this field, I had more than enough experience to make having one irrelevant.

dspielman

I am a Support Manager at a consulting company. I am 31 and have been working in IT since H.S. I did about 2 years of college and just recently started getting my certs. I think my ability to hit the ground running and my excellent social skills allowed me to get this far.

it_consultant

Didn't someone post a report from WSJ or something that had the "Profile of an IT Worker" or something similar which dissected IT employment which included how many had college degrees. The majority didn't have degrees and of those did, only a certain percentage had one related to IT.

*EDIT*

I found the statistics.

A Statistical Profile of IT Workers - WSJ.com

Iristheangel

networker050184 wrote: »

I'm not doubting someone told you that, but I personally know two SE's at Cisco that have no degree. I know people that work at pretty much all the major vendors that do not have college degrees.

Yes. I was specifically told at A10 by the hiring managers. The recruiter at Cisco and my friend at Cisco in the security team told me the other part. If there are people that have the job without degrees, that's fine but I'm sure they're the exception not the rule and that's against what I've been told by people that work for the company

JustFred

Do it for fun, it may take you places or perhaps not but do something you enjoy if you would like to go for a degree. It all depends on the individual.

Everyone

Different companies have different rules... I recently found out through a friend that Verizon now requires all employees to have a degree, even to work in their retail stores. Retail selling cell phones and service plans is not something you'd typically think a degree would be required for, but they do. I would not be able to get a job at a Verizon store, but my salary is probably 3-5x higher than the guy working there that sold me my phone.

it_consultant

Iristheangel wrote: »

I think you misunderstood the tone of my original post. I wasn't attempting to "call you out." Often when it is cited that more and more people are graduating and are not able to find a job, that stat is lumping in every kind of degree in every field. You mentioned BA so I specified that and continued on with my point. There's no offense to be taken in someone disagreeing with you. That's what makes these forums fun sometimes - finding a new perspective.

As far as a degree == useless paper if not from a prestigious college, I would disagree with that. I got my current job a month after I graduated from college and took a large jump into 6-figures. They absolutely will not hire someone without a degree - this is an HR policy and to override that, they would have to take that to the CIO to make an exception and I have never seen an exception made in a year and a half. Thanks to my degree, when the time came to transition from contractor to FTE, I slide by HR's requirements with ease. It also factored greatly into getting an interview with another prominent networking company in San Jose a year ago and another with Cisco. HR in both companies told me that they wouldn't even interview me for the position I was applying for without a degree (SE at Cisco and Network Engineer at A10).

Now you can say that you wouldn't be interested in a job for those companies if they wouldn't even look at you without a degree and that's fair but personally for me, if I didn't go for that piece of paper, I wouldn't have my current job, be in the tax bracket I'm in now, and have the same great job I have. It's true I might have a different job and might be getting some different experience but I don't think anyone can ever make a claim that having a degree has CLOSED doors for them but it certainly can be stated that not having a degree will close some doors

It is relevant to ask, had you not had a degree, would your knowledge and experience (up until that point) have garnered you a promotion + raise even without a degree? There is on way to know that but knowing you from your postings I would suspect that they were finding an excuse to hire you and pay you more and they found it.

I was recently in San Jose at a major vendor (Starts with a B and has a silly batwing symbol) and queried them about a job. It is also their policy to hire only people with 4 year degrees, then the guy waived his hand over the crowd and said "Half of us don't have one".

My cousin (no college whatsoever) was hired on by a major linux distribution with a fondness for hats as one of their premier on premise consultants whose crowing achievement to date was to set up a massive development infrastructure (open shift) for PayPal. Somewhere there is a requirement at that company for a college degree...

Dieg0M

According to profile of an IT worker only around 50% of the individuals working in Network and Computer System Administration have a degree education or higher.

Polynomial

dave330i wrote: »

Really need your eyes checked.

I imagine you having the best deadpan on the forum dave.

Iristheangel

it_consultant wrote: »

It is relevant to ask, had you not had a degree, would your knowledge and experience (up until that point) have garnered you a promotion + raise even without a degree? There is on way to know that but knowing you from your postings I would suspect that they were finding an excuse to hire you and pay you more and they found it.

An argument can be made about Cisco and A10 I suppose given Networker's comments but for my current job, I'm 100% certain that I would not have even been hired as a consultant without a degree. That rule is an absolute at my current company and there are no exceptions in our IT department in regards to that. I can't complain though. It's an awesome job and I doubt I would have been as happy or given so much work at the other two jobs if I had taken them.

redz

Iristheangel wrote: »

They absolutely will not hire someone without a degree - this is an HR policy and to override that, they would have to take that to the CIO to make an exception and I have never seen an exception made in a year and a half.

I would be hesitant to work for any company with such Draconian HR policy, whether or not I had a degree. Poor business practices in HR result in too many potential negative outcomes, with heavy impacts on job satisfaction and employee retention.

This model only works once the company is large and has a reputation as somewhere people want to work (Google, IBM, VMware, Cisco), where they have far too many candidates for their available positions and need an easy way to trim down the list of candidates. As I don't enjoy large company culture, I wouldn't have applied to any of these, anyways.

It's not that they wouldn't hire someone without a degree, but their conscious decision to cut out nearly half of the potential workforce, possibly including the 'best fit' the the position, would immediately make me wonder what other rules they have in place to make their lives a shred easier at the expense of doing business as effectively as they can...

I've already said my piece on degrees, y'all can continue to dispute the value.

EDIT: I am in no way attacking you, your current job, or your company. Just because I wouldn't do it that way doesn't necessarily make it wrong (or right), and I'm not saying I wouldn't take a position with said requirements. It would, however, give me pause.

YFZblu

I recently came to the realization that everyone I work with has a compsci degree. I do not. We all make between 70 and 80k, and the cost of living in Phoenix isn't bad. Recently I bought a new car, and a coworker told me he isn't able to do the same until he pays his student debt down some more...Which made me feel good about my choices for a bit.

That being said, I am probably going to enroll at WGU at some point in the near future...I don't know what the future holds, and this will give me an opportunity to squeeze more juice out of these certs before they expire. I will not be renewing Cisco or most of my CompTIAs, so getting college credit for them will be nice.

More to the point - I have not (to my knowledge) been limited by not having a degree. In fact, 2.5 years ago I quit school to spend my time going hard at certifications and it was the best career decision I've ever made. For me personally, rounding back and getting a degree at a later time is the right fit. But obviously everyone has a different path.

CCNTrainee

Iristheangel wrote: »

I think you misunderstood the tone of my original post. I wasn't attempting to "call you out." Often when it is cited that more and more people are graduating and are not able to find a job, that stat is lumping in every kind of degree in every field. You mentioned BA so I specified that and continued on with my point. There's no offense to be taken in someone disagreeing with you. That's what makes these forums fun sometimes - finding a new perspective.

As far as a degree == useless paper if not from a prestigious college, I would disagree with that. I got my current job a month after I graduated from college and took a large jump into 6-figures. They absolutely will not hire someone without a degree - this is an HR policy and to override that, they would have to take that to the CIO to make an exception and I have never seen an exception made in a year and a half. Thanks to my degree, when the time came to transition from contractor to FTE, I slide by HR's requirements with ease. It also factored greatly into getting an interview with another prominent networking company in San Jose a year ago and another with Cisco. HR in both companies told me that they wouldn't even interview me for the position I was applying for without a degree (SE at Cisco and Network Engineer at A10).

Now you can say that you wouldn't be interested in a job for those companies if they wouldn't even look at you without a degree and that's fair but personally for me, if I didn't go for that piece of paper, I wouldn't have my current job, be in the tax bracket I'm in now, and have the same great job I have. It's true I might have a different job and might be getting some different experience but I don't think anyone can ever make a claim that having a degree has CLOSED doors for them but it certainly can be stated that not having a degree will close some doors

Well thank you for much better insight. Lol I seen some people say that in interviews, they would drop the "who/what is that" when they see a degree from a college that isn't "Mainstream" when it comes reputation. I'm not much a believer in the whole "Prestigious" theme of college and will be getting a degree so I can clear that HR mark, thou when I go for my MS that is when I might drop the money for a program with a great reputation when it comes to knowledge. Congratz on all your achievements.

Khaos1911

Somewhere along the way this thread devolved from "how far can I get
without a degree?" to "Try and convince me why I need a degree?" To sum
all the back and forth up, it's really just a personal decision. If you
want the "best" chance of "succeeding" (which is ultimately whatever you
define success to be, going into upper IT management, being a sys admin
at a fortune 100, or just being a field Desktop support engineer for a
small company)...whatever, it really depends on your goals and
aspirations.

I honestly think having a degree far outweighs not
having one in IT, especially if you are interested in working and moving
up at Global companies. As far as all the talk about student loans...I
PERSONALLY had no problem investing in myself and my future. So I gladly
took out student loans to knock out my bachelors at the University of
Memphis, but I also never took the full amount offered and worked three
jobs to pay for my schooling and lively hood which has more than paid
off for me and I would do it all over again....(oh to be young again,
then again..I'm not even 29 yet, lol.)

Nobody can tell you what
is "right" for you, but like another poster has stated. People with
degrees are rarely viewed as them having a degree to be a negative.
Where I think we can all agree that in many cases that not having one at
some point and time can come back to possibly hurt you.

tjh87

Iristheangel wrote: »

It's true I might have a different job and might be getting some different experience but I don't think anyone can ever make a claim that having a degree has CLOSED doors for them but it certainly can be stated that not having a degree will close some doors

Best point in this thread.

curtisc83

Dieg0M wrote: »

If someone does NOT get a degree, it must be for the right reasons. If someone chooses not to get a degree because he's lazy it makes a huge difference compared to the person who doesn't get a degree in order to get more certs (and be more technically advanced). This said, I would expect the guy without a degree to have maybe another CCNP specialty or even a CCIE.
The truth is we all have an expiration date on our lives and it's important to optimize what we do in our careers. This is why I don't believe a degree is the best way to go in the IT industry. A degree in my eyes is just a piece of paper any idiot with enough time and dedication can get. It's the same for a cert the only exception is that you get direct applicable job knowledge from it.
Also, a lot of people talk about salary statistics of people having a degree compared to people who don't. Can someone show me a chart of this concerning IT? I understand the utility of a degree in other professions but I don't think these statistics applies to IT.

See attached pics. I have the entire report and it goes into way more detail about edu/cert earnings. If anyone wants to read it I can try and find the url for it. It has the breakdown for other states too.

Edit: I added unemployment broken down by edu and career fields.

it_consultant

Iristheangel wrote: »

An argument can be made about Cisco and A10 I suppose given Networker's comments but for my current job, I'm 100% certain that I would not have even been hired as a consultant without a degree. That rule is an absolute at my current company and there are no exceptions in our IT department in regards to that. I can't complain though. It's an awesome job and I doubt I would have been as happy or given so much work at the other two jobs if I had taken them.

As far as Cisco, Brocade, and A10 go, their business model is to pluck CS graduates right out of school and hire them on as SE's and other pre-sales type stuff. That's why every spring you can't get a hotel room in San Jose. That isn't to say that they won't hire a regional SE who is otherwise qualified but doesn't have a degree, of course they will, it happens frequently enough that at least two people on this thread (myself and networker) know people in these companies without a degree. It is somewhat anecdotal but if there are enough people who fit that criteria that we can easily name examples; the policy is not quite strict.

As far as your company goes, I can't speak to that because I have no direct experience with your firm. I have, however, worked in the consulting field for along time and I would be shocked if 40% had college degrees. Even PMO's who are supposed to have a degree for their PMP certifications often get out of it with the work requirement. Consulting is a different animal, you either have the chops or your don't, the college degree does not indicate one way or another if you will be a fantastic consultant.

It is a personal failure of mine that I haven't earned a BS or a BA (I have an associates degree); but to say that you can't get along in this industry or that it is EASIER with a degree is not consistent with my experience. If we were programmers, circuit engineers, firmware engineers, etc, this would be an entirely different experience since they truly need a lot of the advanced classes in CS and EE to do their job. There is no college course for what I do. If there was, it would be wrong anyway.

paul78

networker050184 wrote: »

I'll go ahead and sum up this conversation as it goes the same way every time. For the most part people with degrees think they are necessary (of course why else would they get it!) and people without out them see that they are not a necessity (of course why else would they not get one!).

Just wanted point out that I don't fall into that category. I don't have a degree. But I would always advocate that if life circumstances are aligned, that person should seek to complete their degree.

I feel that @plantwiz probably summarized the answer best - "it depends".

neo9006

Think of this way, your degree will always help you get your foot in the door, it did when I got my job and it was an 2 year degree. There are the other factors, experience helps so much if you have it. This could mean better pay, better living, and piece of mind. Work ethic helps a quite a lot only if your boss sees you busting your butt, does it mean it is going to get you places, maybe and maybe not. I think that depends on who you work. I have all 3 in a different field, but to each there own. If your going without the degree, be prepared for the long run and working it to the core to get where you want to get, so hopefully your successful at whatever you decide to do.

sethmo

redz wrote: »

If I were to do it over, I would stand in brazen defiance and make the exact same career and educational choices that I have to this point. Spending my nights studying industry trends, emerging technologies, taking on freelance work, et al, has proven to be more lucrative than studying biology for elective credits (or whatever) to this point. But again, I don't consider my current business model sustainable as a long-term solution.

EDIT: wait, what's a C+?

Typo, meant N+

And as a person currently taking a Biology elective class, I completely understand. I personally think that a degree in anything IT is pointless unless you are going for a management role. There are two reasons I chose to go back to school: 1) My company is paying for it, can't pass that up! and 2) If I ever want to leave my current job and want to find a better job, a degree will help me accomplish that.

If it were up to me, I would be more opted to hire a person with experience and a few certs vs a person with a degree and no certs.

it_consultant

All things being equal, having a degree won't hurt you at all. However, is it worth the costs associated with a degree to further your IT career. I don't think so, not if you are picking up the tab. If someone else is paying for it, go for the gusto. I certainly know more than a few IT guys who worked for relatively meager wages at a University so they could get free credit hours for themselves and their spouses. I also know IT guys who went and got their CS degree from online Universities at exorbitant costs (monthly payment at or higher than their house payment) only to get a job barely above help desk. The person I am thinking of - his wife went to earn a "healthcare management" degree, again at huge costs, and is making somewhere around 40K a year. I don't see that as a good return on investment and if you EVER (and many of us will) want to switch careers, it will be at a huge personal expense. As I sit now, if I leave IT tomorrow, I don't have a ton of college debt I will be flushing down the toilet as a result, and I like being in that position.