Graduate Degree Options - WGU vs. Harvard

Khaos1911

I'm just gonna shoot you straight.. It's either you went to wgu and no one but the geek hitting the power button on the windows server knows what that even is, but hey at least it was affordable and accredited (and trendy!). Or you went to Harvard extension school, but it's not the "real" Harvard.

Hell, an argument can be made that they are both "fake" schools if we run around with mentalities I see on here. The thing is, the master degree is a check box in alot of situations within IT. Ultimately, get your experience, certs, and degrees andddddd it'll probably still come down to where you're located and how the job market is in that area, lol.

I swear the older you get the less it matters what school you went to, only that you have a degree. As long as it's a reputable school and you have the experience you will be fine when it comes to a job and I actually think your work ethic and personality as a whole is the biggest thing when it comes to advancing up the ladder.

I had to interview two candidates for my boss last week. One dude had a degree from Devry, a few years of experience with some of our tools and most importantly, a personality beyond tech talk!!! Other guy super degree from a top 10% school in the field, a couple certs but wasn't freaking social at all. I could train both of them up no problem, but who would I rather work with and converse with on a daily basis. Guess who got nominated? Everybody on this site goes to WGU and has a ccna (or at least it feels like it), set yourself apart and have a freaking personality to go along with it and don't be afraid to attend the school you want to attend! Walk into that interview and own it. Leave them thinking, "Never heard of Harvard Extension, but that dude owned this interview." As long as it's accredited I'm checking the box and having HR get with you to discuss salaries and offer letters.

historian1974

I'd like to offer this for your consideration, MSP-IT.

Technology Management | Columbia University School of Professional Studies

It is primarily online, but does require five residencies over the course of the program.

Drakeisa

Does job titles or degree titles or school title count?

Or is this an ego thing?

GreaterNinja

As someone who has been in the game for almost two decades I can tell you for a fact that where the degree came from really will affect your job salary at most places except general federal government positions or minimum education requirement positions (if you have other qualifications to back you up or if you have the insider hookup).


Example: Working at Honeywell Aerospace:

Engineer #1 in same department and role: U of A (#10 school at the time) with an B.S. Aerospace Engineering @ 23 years old makes $65k/yr
Engineer #2 in same department and role: University of Phoenix (Online School) with B.S. Industrial Engineering@ 28 yr old with 4 years in marines -$42k/yr
Engineer #3 in same department at Arizona State University B.S. Aerospace Engineering - $60k/yr


With that said, some companies and organizations just have the minimum requirement of having a bachelors or masters degree check box.

IMO as a WGU - MSISA student, the Bachelor or Master degree from Harvard Extension school will really help you sell yourself if you know how to sell yourself on resume and in interviews. Ok i'm off to explore Korea some more.

dialectical

I ran into a concern while combing through the Harvard Extension School requirements and it mentions not being allowed to take a second Master's degree if they are similar. However, the wording is vague on whether this only applies to management and finance students. Personally, I am wrapping up a MSc. from WGU in Cybersecurity and would like to start an ALM in Information Management Systems in the fall. But would be disappointing to find out much later that my limit was getting a professional graduate certificate because I already had a related Master's. I sent an email to that contact in the quote and will update on the response.


Source: Graduate Degree Program Admissions | Harvard Extension School

Prior Graduate Degree
If you already hold a graduate degree, you may earn a master’s degree provided the two degrees are in different fields.
If you possess, or are pursuing, a graduate degree from another school in the field of business, management, accounting, or finance (e.g., MBA, MA, MSc, MAc, MAS), you are not eligible to pursue our ALM degree in either Management or Finance unless your prior or current degree's content is significantly different than the ALM. Please send your inquiry along with a copy of your degree transcript to admissions@extension.harvard.edu for evaluation. The Admissions Office makes all final determinations regarding eligibility and urges you to confirm your ALM eligibility prior to registering for any courses at Harvard Extension School.

A little off topic, but another thing I could not figure out from the wording, if anyone knows, is whether your gateway courses can give you a headstart on satisfying degree program requirements like data communications, information management systems, or securing and risk management.

Regarding the prestige of the school - very very very few make it all the way to the finish line at HES. I have already taken two classes from HES a few years ago and had to drop them both because I got murdered by the course loads and had to put my career first. Although WGU is a unique and valuable program, as others said it can be done in 6 months to a year and can be finished relatively easily if you choose not to make something out of it. There are still two difficult industry certifications standing in the way. I put in 134 pages to my Cyberwarfare essay and learned a lot, but apparently that was some kind of record and I only needed 8 pages, lol.

HES is easy to get into, presuming you survive the gateway courses, but it is very hard to make it to graduation. I read a statistic showing that 1/5 of 1% make it to graduation. Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/09/did-i-really-go-to-harvard-if-i-got-my-degree-taking-online-classes/279644/

josephandre

As has been suggested already for me, I'd do the WGU masters along with a Harvard certificate. In fact I think that's what I'm actually going to do myself as I went through this same song and dance personally.

dialectical

Hi Josephandre,

Already there myself. They would not comment on whether WGU was a disqualifier and said a closer look at my transcript was necessary. However, it was a very long day for me because I also found out from them that I "failed" a course which I know for a fact that I withdrew from, and saw it disappear on my DCE portal after withdrawing (was well within the allowed time period). They told me that this would be counted as a zero on my GPA toward a degree. I filed an appeal and asked them to do an electronic audit on it to prove that I withdrew. But anyway....

Been considering alternatives all day and ran into Georgia Tech's MSci in Computer Science which is apparently 7k for the whole program and entirely online. That is one of the top computer science schools, but they want a computer science undergrad "or something similar". I don't think that they would consider our WGU MSci in Cybersecurity to be similar enough since it's not programming intensive. I only got accepted into the WGU program because I had a random philosophy degree plus a CCNA.

Anyway, to the part which might be helpful for everyone, if you start with a Master's at WGU, then go for a Professional Graduate Certificate at Harvard Extension (Software Engineering or Programming), then this would be solid material for an application to Georgia Tech. Total cost is 10k for the HES certificate and 7k for the Georgia Tech Master's to equal 17k. I am very much leaning toward Software Engineering (honestly because it sounds way better and is basically the same courses). A bonus of this is that you would not have to plan your life around that residency requirement, or need to reexplain a thousand times what ALM stands for. With this formula, you set yourself up for an instant-gratification Master's degree checked off in the HR box, and then for a long-term journey toward a more prestigious degree and a way to show that you're staying sharp in the field. At risk of sounding like a nut, I would consider the SANS Institute after finishing Georgia Tech for an MSci in Information Security Engineering (this adds 50k to the tab but by now you should be doing quite well for yourself). Pretty sure that SANS has the hardest cybersecurity program in the world.

This is my current plan, and afterward I will just keeping applying to Georgia Tech until they let me in. In the meantime, going to try and join some basic open source projects on GitHub to get a portfolio going; looking to do Mozilla and OpenStack bug fixes. If you are already active in the field and have a few certs (like most of us here do) then I imagine this would give you a strong edge if trying to get accepted into a selective school like Georgia Tech even if you have a patchy undergrad transcript like me. Might be wrong but I think most students are just working part time jobs and not in their target fields yet.

Then again, a computer science degree is not for everyone. I work as a VMware admin though, and to get to the top in that field I feel like I'm going to need to program (thinking Chef and Puppet) or at least be able to script like a champ. Right now I am more of a Hello World specialist.

josephandre

good stuff... I actually found out about HES while applying (and getting rejected) for OMSCS. If you don't have a CS undergrad, they either want extensive professional experience, some upper level accredited CS courses (data structures, algorithms, advanced OS, discrete math, linear algebra) or demonstrable proficiency in programming. HES certificates are viewed favorably, in the reddit OMSCS forum, there are several folks that were able to bridge any gaps with HES courses and get admitted, AND in some cases to get credit towards the masters. Also you can take Harvards CS50 for free on edX (and other venues) as a dry run prior to paying to take for credit
,

jelevated

HES is nice, extremely extremely rigorous, with passionate professors. Go there for the education, not the name. Here's why.

There are a few threads regarding those who have been admitted to or graduated from the ALM enrollment. Having Harvard on your resume will garner some questions but the extension school is largely unknown. Some hiring managers will just assume it's the same as getting admitted into Harvard college. When you (rightly) correct them, the focus becomes on what the degree actually entails, what is this "extension school" etc. The competition is so fierce (not a bad thing but really.) I really don't know whether or not its worth the effort to go for a full degree program, only to have to constantly defend the credentials. Word will get around that you're a "Harvard graduate" but some bratty coworker of yours will trot up and proclaim that you're a "Harvard extension graduate" because they are jealous. Again, not on the academics, the academics are solid, but if you trade on the name and expect it to garner respect of that of a Harvard college, law, it won't. Even though the coursework is insanely difficult.

As someone else mentioned, the certificate programs I think are a good mix of time commitment and you get what you want, especially since the certificates are so focused.

dialectical

@josephandre Thank you for the feedback. If the OMSCS rejects me after getting a professional grad certificate in HES then I will just keep applying until they let me in, working on OpenStack and Mozilla bug fixes; also, blogging about automation projects and maybe some GUI developments in java. I personally am 99% server admin and 1% programmer, but I'm working on some pretty ambitious server/networking/security certs and I'm hoping that they will appreciate a strong resume - even if it is for a system admin that does little or no scripting.

Regarding my F, I was really surprised but they actually found digital proof that I clicked to withdraw from the class but that something went wrong on their end. So I will be allowed to appeal but honestly the ALM just seems like murderous work for not being categorized as a normal degree, and so I still plan to prep for Georgia Tech even if they grant my appeal.

@jelevated I work as a system admin and don't witness any snobbery like that in the workplace. What I suspect about the HES student being "victimized" with the accusation of a fake degree is that he was lording it over people, or just being a cockly know-it-all in general. Most people want to see someone like that called out, but for their attitude. If it wasn't HES then he would be mocked for getting a fake degree at U of Phoenix.

As long as you are humble and you have other things going which arguably outshine the HES degree like a CCIE in progress, and you work really hard, I'm not seeing where a lack of respect would come from.


No one commented on the SANS institute, but it's allegedly the hardest cybersecurity program in the world and you walk out of it with 7 major certifications and an advanced engineering degree. If you did that after HES (instead or after the OMSCS) then I doubt anyone would be like "Yeah but he went to fake Harvard."

Danielm7

Maybe I'm missing something, but you're talking about an MS from WGU, then maybe another MLA from Harvard Extension, then shooting for another MS from Georgia Tech? All in tech disciplines? This is for a sysadmin who considers themselves 1% programmer at their job? What's the end goal outside of a confusing resume? I get the idea of constant learning but this seems like overkill, especially if they are all masters programs.

dialectical

Danielm7 wrote: »

but you're talking about an MS from WGU, then maybe another MLA from Harvard Extension, then shooting for another MS from Georgia Tech? All in tech disciplines? This is for a sysadmin who considers themselves 1% programmer at their job? What's the end goal outside of a confusing resume? I get the idea of constant learning but this seems like overkill, especially if they are all masters programs.

Well just a grad certificate not an ALM. Anyway, if aiming for cloud security as a goal, anything that pertains to servers, networking, virtualization, and security would fall under that umbrella, and cloud security as a skill should in turn complement any IT discipline.

I believe that DevOps is going to be replacing all server/system admins in perhaps as early as 15 years. It's already happening. Kubernetes, Chef, and Puppet can automate sysadmin functions for up to billions of VMs and pods. Economically, it's not hard to see how a few highly paid Chef/Puppet admins could end up being chosen to do the work of hundreds of sysadmins.

Anyway, right now I am a mid-level sysadmin. I do not want to stay there. A couple years ago I was a desktop junior and I DEFINITELY did not want to stay there. When I shop for senior level sysadmin positions, particularly in VMware or even as a Red Hat Enterprise Linux admin, I see requests for expert-level scripting in python, BASH, PowerShell, java, and high exposure to configuration management languages like Puppet. I've been turning down these Linux jobs though because 1) I don't feel like I'm there yet with the scripting and 2) I already work full time in virtualization and want to keep the count on that experience going.

However, the risk you've identified of having a confusing resume is a good point and a risk that I take seriously. Perhaps you can make a suggestion. At the very least, I want to earn the coding ability to be able to automate everything with little effort and maybe do some API programming. When I say that I'm only 1% a programmer, that is a status/reality check of where I'm at. I want that number to hit 50% as soon as possible.

I work very hard at whatever I do, but I do not want to misplace my efforts. So if you have a suggestion on how to present a resume theme with more coherence I would be grateful and receptive to that. However, I want a challenge and me settling for basic sysadmin work is not something that's going to work.

Back to the subject of Georgia Tech, one of their specializations is "Computing Systems". That is very much something a sysadmin would be able to excel at by drawing on their experience without having to worry about writing major pieces of software. For reference, below is GT's curriculum for The OMSCS in Computing Systems. A two year crash course at HES and some Open source contributions should be enough for this. And then maybe afterward I would not have to be a sysadmin anymore. For example, I'd love to work as a NSX engineer for VMware but they will only hire you if you have a Master's in computer science. Yes my MSci from WGU would be enough to skate by as a syadmin--but that's where I am not where I want to be.


[OMSCS] Core Courses (9 hours)

CS 6505 Computability, Algorithms, and Complexity

And, pick two (2) of:

CS 6210 Advanced Operating Systems
CS 6241 Compiler Design
CS 6250 Computer Networks
CS 6290 High-Performance Computer Architecture
CS 6300 Software Development Process
CS 6400 Database Systems Concepts and Design

Electives (9 hours)

Pick three (3) courses from:

CS 6035 Introduction to Information Security
CS 6235 Real Time Systems
CS 6238 Secure Computer Systems
CS 6260 Applied Cryptography
CS 6262 Network Security
CS 6310 Software Architecture and Design
CS 6340 Software Analysis and Testing
CS 6365 Introduction to Enterprise Computing
CS 6422 Database System Implementation
CS 6550 Design and Analysis of Algorithms
CS 6675 Advanced Internet Computing Systems and Applications
CS 7210 Distributed Computing
CS 7260 Internetworking Architectures and Protocols
CS 7270 Networked Applications and Services
CS 7290 Advanced Topics in Microarchitecture
CS 7292 Reliability and Security in Computer Architecture
CS 7560 Theory of Cryptography
CS 8803-FPL Special Topics: Foundations of Programming Languages


That would be just one algorithm course and I don't see how that would overkill for any top paying job. I'm also struggling with the overkill concept in general. How can skills and training be overkill - would you not just become eligible for more and more advanced jobs?

Danielm7

Aren't a bunch of the Georgia Tech classes available from udacity? Couldn't you try a few of them and see where you stand? Maybe that would help GT realize you're serious. Have they already said you get a grad certificate from Harvard Extension that it would get you in? I get what you're going for, but I'd be very surprised if any company had a 100% requirement for an MS in CS only if you could actually produce what they want and already had an MS in a tech field.

dialectical

Danielm7 wrote: »

Aren't a bunch of the Georgia Tech classes available from udacity? Couldn't you try a few of them and see where you stand? Maybe that would help GT realize you're serious.

Unlike HES or WGU, GT will not let you in just for meeting the requirements. There is still selectivity which is some of the appeal. However, I did not realize that they had a connection to Udacity. What's really interesting about Udacity is that WGU's new MSci in Data Science said that they would acknowledge a nanodegree from Udacity as meeting one of their requirements. That means it must have some weight.

Just checked it out and Udacity has a 4 month program called Learn to Code. Somewhere else I looked up the price which, at least according to that blog was $200 a month. Very reasonable! And the fact that it's paid and not some free participatory thing must give it some clout. I will definitely give it a go, and maybe even put off a semester of HES so that I can get some practice before getting smoked in CS50 again (had to drop it prior).

josephandre

hey dialectical I've spent the better parts of the past few months going down the same path as you, so I've done a ton of research.

If your goal is practical CS knowledge, there are a million and one free or low cost learning options online to supplment whatever MS you decide to pursue, which may prove to be the best 'value'.

I think that the absolute no brainer first move is to take the harvard cs50 intro to computer science (to completion) on edx. it's the most engaging, in depth, well explained course I've encountered. Coupled with the fact that it's free, AND if you do decide to go the HES route, you'll already have taken a dry run before spending 2500 dollars. Also, the 2017 includes python which is great.

between edx, coursera, and udacity there are a number of other great similar courses from intro to CS, to algorithms, to machine language, compilers, data structures etc etc.

here's the MIT intro to computer science with python courses

https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-computer-science-mitx-6-00-1x-8

a really great course is the helsinki mooc on object oriented programming with java

Object-Oriented programming with Java, part I free, high quality, and self paced.


here's the open source society CS program where the open source community compiled a structured path of relevant MOOCs to closely mimic an actual CS degree syllabus. Extremely cool

https://github.com/open-source-society/computer-science#introduction-to-computer-science

the Odin Project admittedly this is more web development focused, and don't think it sounds like what you're looking for, but its one of the cooler (free) programs out there and is really comprehensive but focused more on Ruby

Learn Web Development for Free Using Ruby on Rails | The Odin Project

like you said udemy and others have for pay programs like the nanodegrees etc which could be a good bite sized opportunity to get your feet wet, and there are countless options and the intro to programming is pretty neat if only for the projects you create which you can then feature on your github. I've learned pretty quickly that being able to showcase projects and things you've done is far more important than a resume or transcript regarding programming/coding/CS

lastly if you can afford the HES program, then I assume price isn't that big of an obstacle... Oregon State offers a completely online CS post bacc program that is highly reviewed and praised. it's 60 credits of only core courses to tack on to an existing undegrad degree and is fairly priced @ 480 dollars per credit. More time consuming than the others, but a turn key solution to get where you want to go.

Professional Computer Science B.S. Degree

Node Man

I'll keep my eyes open for MIT . . .

josephandre

https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/find-by-topic/?utm_source=OCWHomePage&utm_medium=CarouselSm&utm_campaign=Finder

josephandre

Also looks like WGU will be introducing CS tracks in both bachelors and masters soon.

https://mobile.twitter.com/wgu/status/840316403596967937

dialectical

josephandre wrote: »

Lastly if you can afford the HES program, then I assume price isn't that big of an obstacle... Oregon State offers a completely online CS post bacc program that is highly reviewed and praised. it's 60 credits of only core courses to tack on to an existing undegrad degree and is fairly priced @ 480 dollars per credit. More time consuming than the others, but a turn key solution to get where you want to go.
Professional Computer Science B.S. Degree

Fully noted on everything. Thank you very much! I will be taking a very close look at the Helsinki program (I see that it is 6 weeks) and the python program at MIT.

And you weren't kidding about researching the same path. I also found the Oregon State program and my immediate reaction was to “decide” that’s what I was going to do, but I was disappointed to learn that it was $30k! I can afford HES because I’d only be paying $2,500 a semester.

It was the 30k vs 10k (HES) which led me to conclude that a 10k professional grad certificate in Software Engineering would be better than a post-baccalaureate in computer science. Don’t you agree?

On a resume I imagine that it would also be much less confusing to see Msc Cybersecurity > prof. grad. cert in software engineering> Msc Computer Science. This as opposed to Msc > BS > Msc.

Or maybe I’m wrong since I the Oregon State undergrad would fully stand on its own (especially with good grades) and would not need MOOCs to supplement it?

On one hand I’m leaning toward Oregon State because I could always do the HES thing after, and if I’m better and coding and making more money, I could maybe even knock out the whole certificate in 1-2 semesters. However, if Getting 1.5 – 2.5 masters degrees already, going back to get a bachelors would not make sense.

josephandre

Yeah I know what you mean. Ultimately it just all depends on what you want to do. 10k for a Harvard certificate that could potentially get you accepted into GT is probably the best idea. For me, I really like the idea of going through an actual CS programs and learning theory and architecture etc etc. not just looking to be a programmer, but to really understand the ins and outs of computing.

Whatever you decide, best of luck. There's certainly no shortage of resources.

dialectical

Yes, I am now leaning toward the undergrad at Oregon State. It's the same exact degree as if it was not distance learning and you can do it at your own pace (in as short as a year). Personally, I work two full-time jobs (one is arguably part-time) so I think I can cross myself off the list for the 1-year track. Also, in self-honesty I would hesitate at many of the Java 1 assignments and need to hit the books for each and every class. This tells me that I need those classes, and not just for Georgia Tech.

I like that Oregon State would give me confidence for formal programming, would provide some time to track feature coursework in hosted GitHub projects, and then maybe after the whole thing I could take some solid programming courses at Georgia Tech and not have to skate by with what I already know by taking networking and infrastructure.

Also, when you think about it, there should not be any little voices saying that you should pad it with this MOOC or that MOOC. Meanwhile, with the HES certificate as a standalone, I can't seem to frame a plan for that without thinking something like "ok but I will be doing this too". However, I really like the idea of maybe doing HES down the road and keeping that door open.

In the event that I really did make it through Georgia Tech and did well, then I would probably abandon my aspiration for the SANS Institute. After all, I would be putting myself through all these trials just to cross the divide from infrastructure into dev-ops, only to get a flagship degree in security engineering.