How would you react to a Recruiter telling you?

Chitownjedi

Question:

Say a recruiter has a location that they have sent 30 or so people to before, and currently have that amount staffed there. The highest they've placed someone at this location is $45.00 p/hr
You are not looking for anything under $50.00.

They say they can do $50.00 but are more comfortable with doing $45.00 because that's the most they place people over there for. They've placed someone there that you have managed directly for $45.00, and the actual skill that the person was hired for, you literally taught them 30-40% of it, sitting next to them and showing them how it works, why it works, and why we do it this way (best practice.) You also have 9 more certifications than them... tons of accolades and recommendations, and possess business knowledge to help be a liaison with the more "business focus" aspects of the organization. Which is asked for as this role is a Sr. Role in title and responsibility to the one your former employee has.

You are also told that the only thing that makes them hesitant about placing you is that you have achieved a lot in a short amount of time... and you would have to have literally stayed 2 levels below where you currently are for 3 extra years... for them to feel okay with the fact that you don't meet the number of years that the client suggested on their job description... ?

For overachievers, hard workers, and people who are insanely passionate about learning, and get put in positions where they excel and are able to get progressively higher positions working contracts in a short amount of time.... would you consider this a slap in a face... them just wanting what they want... or not understanding what a (and i don't meant to be arrogant) star performer looks like?

I am kind of dismayed as it seems that the almost obsession i had studying until 3:00am almost every day for months on end, sometimes hitting 35 hours a week while working full time, and in between jobs studying almost 60 hours a week, to learn more, and become a "technical" beast... can be used against me. I've studied hard... labbed hard.. got jobs.. and excelled using those things to aid and help do good work. I have the actual experience.. book experience.. and lab experience... but you want me to create Group Policies for 5 years, because 2 years isn't enough...? What else could I learn about Group Policies that getting the 70-640 and being a domain admin with GPO responsibilities for 2 years couldn't provide? I mean... not to sound full of myself.. but I am pretty good at learning stuff and becoming great in it in less than 5 years.... sigh

Really the only reason I am upset is because the recruiter asked me if I had any hands on experience in SCCM and I had a Job title that listed SCCM Engineer on my resume. A Certification on my resume for SCCM 2012. And at my last job was an SCCM 2012 Architect. They've "read" my entire resume... asked me about task sequence deployment.. then had the nerve to ask me if I had SCCM experience after we just talked about how I taught the person they just hired to be an engineer how to create them! Recruiters... smh. And I actually drove downtown in this horrible weather to meet face to face with this person....bleh

/EndRant

I hope this don't come off as anything other than someone who knows the grind of working their arse off to be the best they can and hates when someone underestimates what I am capable of.... actually its my number one source of fuel for proving folks wrong And just think.. I just decided at the gym this morning to get back on the CISCO track after learning Python and Javascript... Those late nights will be heaven knowing I'm staying ahead of the curb... not with it.

Z3-Masterd

Chitownjedi wrote: »

Question:
I am kind of dismayed as it seems that the almost obsession i had studying until 3:00am almost every day for months on end, sometimes hitting 35 hours a week while working full time, and in between jobs studying almost 60 hours a week, to learn more, and become a "technical" beast... can be used against me. I've studied hard... labbed hard.. got jobs.. and excelled using those things to aid and help do good work. I have the actual experience.. book experience.. and lab experience... but you want me to create Group Policies for 5 years, because 2 years isn't enough...? What else could I learn about Group Policies that getting the 70-640 and being a domain admin with GPO responsibilities for 2 years couldn't provide? I mean... not to sound full of myself.. but I am pretty good at learning stuff and becoming great in it in less than 5 years.... sigh
.

Couldn't agree more. It's like they throw darts at a board with some of this ****. I recently applied for a contract job doing data migrations, and one of the requirements was "having migrated at least 5,000 machines to Windows 7." Like a normal person needs to do something several thousand times before the process gets committed to long-term memory... wtf.

EdTheLad

It seems that you are holding higher regard for the recruiter than they deserve. The recruiters job is to tell you any old rubbish in order for you to accept a lower rate. I've heard similar stuff before, its just recruiter jargon. The recruiter never read your resume, they glanced at it, and saw some core technologies that matched the job description. Stick to your guns and say you want $50, they said they can give, so let them give it. If you accept $45 shame on you, just know that extra $5 is going into the recruiters pocket.

devils_haircut

I know the feeling. I was turned down for a JOAT "desktop support" role about 6 months ago due to not having enough experience, but I catch on quickly to most topics, even advanced ones. What they were asking for was well within my skill level. My time in IT has been fairly short so far, but let's face it...some people are just smarter than others. It sounds blunt, but it's true. And it can be very hard to prove that to a recruiter or hiring manager who only knows what they can see on your resume.

I've lucked out a couple of times by working for other really smart guys (who also make great learning resources).

Bokeh

I would have told the guy to go pound salt. There was no reason for him to bring you in if there wasn't a chance of getting you the 50/hr you told him you wanted.

Chitownjedi

Bokeh wrote: »

I would have told the guy to go pound salt. There was no reason for him to bring you in if there wasn't a chance of getting you the 50/hr you told him you wanted.

Oh yeah, I mostly did it because I've been off a month, and want to make sure I stay in the habit of interviewing every couple of weeks to keep that skill polished. I am not really interested in any position that thinks that low-balling someone with my qualifications and work history is a good idea because they place "less qualified" people there for less. I am not them, they don't work how I work, study how I study, and perform how I perform.

So right off the bat I knew it was not going to happen... as it was with a staffing agency who i've worked with 4 years ago, and they are known to be horrible anyway. I just wanted to run down there and see what were the going rates for SCCM Engineers/Sr.Desktop Engineers ... Honestly with my skill and experience in SCCM I would be going below market taking less than $55.00 p/hr... however that means you will probably be looking quite a while, as most places have to get burned a couple of times before they realize you get what you pay for, and actually decide to pony up appropriate funds for what they want quality wise.

ehnde

This is an emotional issue for you and a business issue for them. For you it is personal....the recruiter doesn't care. Their goal is to place people and make as much money doing it as possible. "No" is a powerful word. There are other recruiters and other jobs.

zxbane

I would follow the advice others have posted in this thread..You know what your worth, so don't sell yourself short.

Chitownjedi

ehnde wrote: »

This is an emotional issue for you and a business issue for them. For you it is personal....the recruiter doesn't care. Their goal is to place people and make as much money doing it as possible. "No" is a powerful word. There are other recruiters and other jobs.

I sell my self as a service. It's a business decision for me as well. Underneath it all we all have opinions and feelings about our encounters and I express it here amongst people in the industry. I am not lost at all on what this was and is about. I get the "It is what It is" aspect of the situation...I just thought I'd share my feelings at what seems to be a flawed logic applied to a situation, and how if you are logical, forward thinking, and understand ROI, then in this scenario it was not applied.

I am and always will be frustrated by a lack of deeper analytics when it comes to situations by people who profess to be experts in placement. The same way that every now in then when a recruiter calls me for a $16.50 job to be a field tech.(amazing how many of those I still get) If I told that person, hey look at my qualifications,my education, and take a look at my job history... I would need at least 18.00 for that! (It's amazing that 3 years ago I'd kill for that pay rate, I am truly blessed and keep that in my mind at all times).... and they told me... "I don't know, we usually only put people over there for $16.50" But fully expect to reap the benefits of all the other things I bring to the table (That i've been tier 2 desktop, tier 3, network sys admin, networking engineer, project coordinator and a Manager of Desktop Support & Engineering)... They will get the ...wtf face from me. Doesn't mean I don't understand what it's about, or how the system works... its just like... really? You really going to stick to your guns, when i have a Cruise Missile on my back?

If you sent someone that's highly over qualified over and has a documented history of excellent customer service and performance at a little higher rate then you are comfortable with, and that person shines (Increases you reputation amongst the client, adds other resources to your talent pool by recommending you to all of the people he has managed, and worked with in the past whom separation date is less than 2 weeks away) why wouldn't you take advantage of that?


Yeah, play checkers with me, so that the other 15 admins and engineers I Managed reach their termination date, I can say yeah, I wouldn't suggest working with that staffing agency they are really not out for what's best for you.. that wouldn't seem like a good way to leverage someones value. Now I am not saying I would do that... that's vindictive, and I am not that swayed one way or the other about the situation. But my gripe is just not being more aware of what the potential benefits are, versus the unsavoriness about not being able to pinch every single penny out of every single placement. Not everyone gives you the same bang for the buck.

At my previous position we placed Admins at 50,000k straight out of College, no certifications needed.Having an A+ generally got folks about 2-3k more. Going by your Certification list if I interviewed you and were looking at your qualifications.. and comparing them to what we paid for people with no experience, and I told you we can do $50,000 and you ask for $55,000 (mind you just an A+ increased the average rate for Admins to about 52.500k on average.... then what could you/should you reasonably expect for your CCNA CCNA:SEC Project+ Sec+ and on and on?

So of course I will say no... not a problem, not an issue... lol. However, it's content.. and I like the forum... and I like to write, hence another novel here. It's all good. I have lots of time off so I am just flow of conscious writing because it may help or prepare people if we can find out how to attack situations like this more efficiently. All i really did was say that my market value is more than that ( I would have been taken less money then I was making at my previous job)


On an end note:

The position I just left we negotiated about my salary once FTE conversion occurred. I was making 32 p/hr on contract (About 66.5k anually), however once I got there the work was way more than what had been previously mentioned. My Manager drafted with HR 3 different Job Roles and descriptions (including mine,) and sent them to a 3rd party IT marketing company to set salary expectations on roles based on what certifications were needed/education/experience.... ect

The job was highly stressful (I put in about 4 70 hour weeks 4 60 hour weeks in my first 12 weeks) and highly unorganized and dysfunctional. However we made vast improvements, I was personally recommended by the CFO-CIO-COO as well as other departments for the improvement we made in our environment in the short time I was there. I stated that on conversion I wanted 85,000... they suggested 80,000. I told them that for what I had to deal with 85,000 was the minimum I'd feel comfortable with. They told me I can wait on the 3rd party firm to confirm the salary range, and whatever they came back with I could get it. I said okay, sounds fine to me. (I saw the job description and was actually ask to proofread it before its submission.) The firm was suppose to take 3 weeks to complete it.. it took them 2 1/2 months. I settled for 80,000 with a signing bonus and 10k+ yearly bonus a month before it came back, as I was pressured to convert because I was 3 months to hirer and I was going into month 5.....a month after I converted the firm returned the Market values for the job description and my position came back with a starting salary stating $112,000k annually. Now i was just happy to be making more than I was at my previous job....but it kind of made me think I had dropped the ball. (leaving 22,000k on the table can do that)

I don't care about making that much any more. I am much more interested in work/life balance... and starting my own entrepreneurial endeavors with free time. But that gives some history why I felt like ranting a little bit about this small little encounter. I am sure this is just the way it is...

Sorry for the damn novel.. ugh!

shodown

Ehnde hit it on the head.

You feel like you grind and they dont' get it. They are use to getting so much bu11sh1t that you have to show them otherwise. I was told by a recruiter about a 2 years ago that I was only worth 80-90K. I told her to send me to the interview and let me see what they say anyway as I was in need of a job. I also told her I was interviewing at one of the largest cisco partners in the country at the time. I went into the interview and blew it away they offered me 85K and the other job offered me way more. I sent her my offer letter and told her no thanks. She uses me to pre screen interview candidates now for gift cards about 2-3 times a year.

kohr-ah

Easiest thing is I'd yell them to go pound sand.

I had Robert Half call me and of course want to meet. I agreed and figured if it helps me find full time perm work screw it. The guy ended up looking over my resume, certs, etc and said how much do I make now. I said 36 per hour. He said I don't think I can get you that but I can send you jobs for 65k which I think is more than fair.

I said to him if he can't get near what I am making now I believe we are done here and stood up and left.

All of a sudden gee.. His clients are willing to make my rate when they send me job notices.

I not fond of them either when they do that I just do like others above said and go "I know I am worth what I make and there will be other offers".

Rosco2382

Was it Brooksource? I hate them.

Side note, will you be my mentor? Lately with my schooling and work schedule I have sort of lost focus on my certification studies.

Chitownjedi

Rosco2382 wrote: »

Was it Brooksource? I hate them.

Side note, will you be my mentor? Lately with my schooling and work schedule I have sort of lost focus on my certification studies.

Actually Brooksource- Mike Barre and Kellie Daniels do pretty well for me.... Let them know that I sent you.. I'll pm you my contact information.

It was Insight Global. They have never been very good in my opinion. Again, it depends on who you get in the organization.

Let me know how I can help you. I try to help anyone who is interested and is willing to do the work for themselves and increase their worth...

Chitownjedi

kohr-ah wrote: »

Easiest thing is I'd yell them to go pound sand.

I had Robert Half call me and of course want to meet. I agreed and figured if it helps me find full time perm work screw it. The guy ended up looking over my resume, certs, etc and said how much do I make now. I said 36 per hour. He said I don't think I can get you that but I can send you jobs for 65k which I think is more than fair.

I said to him if he can't get near what I am making now I believe we are done here and stood up and left.

All of a sudden gee.. His clients are willing to make my rate when they send me job notices.

I not fond of them either when they do that I just do like others above said and go "I know I am worth what I make and there will be other offers".

Yeah, I feel you... They want a bigger piece of the pie, but risk alienating the possible reputation and or recommendations they can get from people who may become resource hubs.

I usually have great rapport with recruiters, and lots of them send me emails about positions specifically asking me to forward them along to my contemporaries as i see fit. I've helped a lot of people get placed with TekSystems-Dice-Brooksource-Ranstad... hell maybe I should ask for a piece of the pie... versus just trying to help out people I know. I know I will not be sending anyone to them directly. Considering my website just went live and I actually am thinking about doing a staffing agency review guide for the Chicagoland area... the potential for more business for them (If anyone actually cares to read it when i get around to it) could possibly increase. Oh well's.

Robert Half is in my bottom half of places I've worked with in Chicago.

BradleyHU

Chitownjedi wrote: »

Actually Brooksource- Mike Barre and Kellie Daniels do pretty well for me.... Let them know that I sent you.. I'll pm you my contact information.

It was Insight Global. They have never been very good in my opinion. Again, it depends on who you get in the organization.

Let me know how I can help you. I try to help anyone who is interested and is willing to do the work for themselves and increase their worth...

Insight Global is ehhhhh....i'm cool with 2 recruiters there, but the account managers are sometime'ish....like they dont really know anything about the roles, but they're the ones who decide to submit you or not...

Chitownjedi

BradleyHU wrote: »

Insight Global is ehhhhh....i'm cool with 2 recruiters there, but the account managers are sometime'ish....like they dont really know anything about the roles, but they're the ones who decide to submit you or not...

Your spot on. The person who reached out to me was ecstatic about my work history, education, and talked to my references and was ecstatic.. the Account Manager is all like "The highest we sent someone over there for is this... so can you be flexible and come down to our number because illogical reason 1,2,3,4,5"

When I stick to my guns they say they can do it... but then right after its "Well the only thing that makes me hesitate is is that you have been a network engineer and a manager- if you would have stayed a desktop engineer, I would feel better about sending you over there." How about you let them decide. 2 of your recruiters said perfect fit. You said perfect fit. You asked me to come downtown 1 hour after you got my resume and canceled a meeting to meet with me... now you are concerned that I got promoted out of desktops because I excelled in it? lol... I got salt on my dress shoes for that?!

pitviper

No offense – but I’m not sure why there are so many threads by people pissed off that they can’t name their price. If company X will only pay Y, then they will find someone else willing to take the salary to fill the role – Granted the place will be used as a stepping stone and turnover will be high.

The recruiters are always going to praise your history… because regardless they are there to make a buck off of you, not be your friend. It’s in their best interest to boost your confidence before pimping you out.

Find a place that will meet what you are looking for, and maybe a new recruiter, but keep in mind they are sales people at heart…

SweenMachine

pitviper wrote: »

No offense – but I’m not sure why there are so many threads by people pissed off that they can’t name their price. If company X will only pay Y, then they will find someone else willing to take the salary to fill the role – Granted the place will be used as a stepping stone and turnover will be high.

The recruiters are always going to praise your history… because regardless they are there to make a buck off of you, not be your friend. It’s in their best interest to boost your confidence before pimping you out.

Find a place that will meet what you are looking for, and maybe a new recruiter, but keep in mind they are sales people at heart…

I sympathize with everyone on this thread; I agree with what PitViper just posted.

IT people are notorious role jumpers, leaving people high and dry continually. I am not pointing fingers at anyone in this thread; because I don't know you. But I would need 5 hands to count how many people in the 7 years I worked at my last org bailed shortly after their next certification, their next goal and challenge. That is clearly everyones right, but when your resume shows project after project, 2 months here, 5 months there, recruiters will treat you like meat, and they will find the next piece of meat at the market if you are interested. It really is that simple. They are in the business to make money, just like you are.

The only thing you can do is to vet out your options better. This thread helps ME vet that I will likely avoid insight global in the future, since I am in Chicago myself...

-scott

f0rgiv3n

Sounds to me like these recruiters are selling cars on craigslist... not finding qualified candidates by the way they are acting.

Rosco2382

Chitownjedi wrote: »

Actually Brooksource- Mike Barre and Kellie Daniels do pretty well for me.... Let them know that I sent you.. I'll pm you my contact information.

Let me know how I can help you. I try to help anyone who is interested and is willing to do the work for themselves and increase their worth...

Thanks I would appreciate that.

Honestly I am not sure, I sort of just said the mentor thing. I appreciate the sincerity though. I just need to get back on track. A severe illness derailed me last year so I just need to stop making excuses and use my time wisely.

mdomino

SweenMachine wrote: »

I sympathize with everyone on this thread; I agree with what PitViper just posted.

IT people are notorious role jumpers, leaving people high and dry continually. I am not pointing fingers at anyone in this thread; because I don't know you. But I would need 5 hands to count how many people in the 7 years I worked at my last org bailed shortly after their next certification, their next goal and challenge. That is clearly everyones right, but when your resume shows project after project, 2 months here, 5 months there, recruiters will treat you like meat, and they will find the next piece of meat at the market if you are interested. It really is that simple. They are in the business to make money, just like you are.

The only thing you can do is to vet out your options better. This thread helps ME vet that I will likely avoid insight global in the future, since I am in Chicago myself...

-scott

It may not be that they are jumping roles as much as there is no advancement for them in their current position. If you are pushing yourself in your time off to study and increase your skills then it is completely reasonable to never stop looking if your current employer isn't open to some kind of advancement. Nothing fosters bitterness at work as much as having someone underpaid or working below their skills.

You really can't fault someone for leaving their employer high and dry if you consider the current employment climate. You need to be honest with the fact that most employers will throw you out the door and onto the street in a heartbeat if it could net them a 2% bonus. If you give them more loyalty than they give you then you are just begging for a rough career.

Chitownjedi

pitviper wrote: »

No offense – but I’m not sure why there are so many threads by people pissed off that they can’t name their price. If company X will only pay Y, then they will find someone else willing to take the salary to fill the role – Granted the place will be used as a stepping stone and turnover will be high.

The recruiters are always going to praise your history… because regardless they are there to make a buck off of you, not be your friend. It’s in their best interest to boost your confidence before pimping you out.

Find a place that will meet what you are looking for, and maybe a new recruiter, but keep in mind they are sales people at heart…

I get your pov. I think its more so about the transparency in having people set your market value as a seller as if you are a piece of meat that is the reason that people can become perturbed.

A lot of these same organizations.. IE Robert Half, Releases a salary guide based on position title, certifications, yet they can bring you in and act like if you want the median salary for what they say "Is the median" salary for that position, you have to play the whole oh well we don't if we can get you that...game.

And I've been in IT long enough to know that contractors didn't make the market the way it was. Loyalty and stability is not something companies invested in. They outsourced jobs, positions, they turned them into short term contracts where they had the flexibility to release on moments notice and not have to pay you benefits or help you invest in your retirement. They cost cut and use staffing agencies as an extended wing of their HR, and use staffing agencies to vet and filter candidates before being presented. However I believe there is a direct conflict of interest with that, as obviously if that 3rd party has reasons to stack the deck in their favor, they might do so at the cost of bringing the best talent to the organization for fear of losing a piece of their pie. So in that regard how they behave and perform and think, has a direct influence on the IT Community as a whole.

The fact that the IT community has taken advantage of the environment that they help usher in shouldn't be blamed or turned on the people who take advantage of their greed. In 3 years I've went from being a PC TECH up to a Manager of Desktop Support and Engineering. and went from making 20,000 a year to 93,000 a year.... the reason that happen is because that's the way the market is set up. Companies want you to come in and perform projects, and at that point when that project is fulfilled its up to you to decide to be extended for maybe the same price, or move on to a location that may pay you more for a different role or function. They got what they wanted out of you. And brought someone else in. For those who want to move up and move up fast.. the IT contracting scene is thriving for that.

I've been apart of 4 mergers at the locations i've worked for, and now a liquidation and outsourcing of a complete IT infrastructure, and unfortunately a lot of the times, as a contractor, I get to stay behind and finish my projects after the blood baths. I see people getting walked out that worked there 10+ years, crying.. asking "why them, aren't they a good worker"..... Most companies don't give a damn about you, so if recruiters and staffing agencies are listing salaries for every skill, certification, degree and setting ranges... i don't see why it wouldn't be poignant to set your price in that range... hell they are the ones publishing range guides....



And more to you point of of why people get angry and mad.. i think because it is human nature to do so. being able to express disappointment and frustration is healthy. Dwelling on it and having it become an obstacle is not. While others may have "ascended" to a level of knowing what it is about, and no longer want to waste time or energy complaining about things they can't control, some folks just feel better to talk a little bit about it. Even if its just for a half a day or 3 hours or 10 post on a forum. It may not be useful to those who obviously handle those things differently, but not everyone handles situations the same. So they like to speak on it. I totally agree with your point 100%, but a lot of times folks don't have people to bounce issues off of that would probably understand it intimately. I have no other people that are IT in my fam... so when it comes to IT related issues, some people just reach out to those they think can appreciate their pov.

kohr-ah

SweenMachine wrote: »

I sympathize with everyone on this thread; I agree with what PitViper just posted.

IT people are notorious role jumpers, leaving people high and dry continually. I am not pointing fingers at anyone in this thread; because I don't know you. But I would need 5 hands to count how many people in the 7 years I worked at my last org bailed shortly after their next certification, their next goal and challenge. That is clearly everyones right, but when your resume shows project after project, 2 months here, 5 months there, recruiters will treat you like meat, and they will find the next piece of meat at the market if you are interested. It really is that simple. They are in the business to make money, just like you are.

The only thing you can do is to vet out your options better. This thread helps ME vet that I will likely avoid insight global in the future, since I am in Chicago myself...

-scott

The funny thing is I am trying to find a permanent long term place where I can stay for years. I dont even want to job hop. These past 2 jobs just have been bad luck for my case. 1 relocated to florida (was supposed to take years. Took weeks and they told me to start looking for work immediately as I wouldn't get severance) and the other they went through and IT Reformation and aren't keeping the contract to hires like they originally were going to. **sigh**

I totally agree though. I have watched more people come and go which is fine if that is what they want to do as I understand they are trying to get to where they want to be career and salary wise. I will gladly take any advice if people have recommendations of recruiters to work with in Illinois as I am trying to find work in the west burbs right now before this contract runs up hopefully contract to hire or permanent as I want to build my career.

So please PM me if you have any suggestions.

coreyb80

Chitownjedi wrote: »

Yeah, I feel you... They want a bigger piece of the pie, but risk alienating the possible reputation and or recommendations they can get from people who may become resource hubs.

I usually have great rapport with recruiters, and lots of them send me emails about positions specifically asking me to forward them along to my contemporaries as i see fit. I've helped a lot of people get placed with TekSystems-Dice-Brooksource-Ranstad... hell maybe I should ask for a piece of the pie... versus just trying to help out people I know. I know I will not be sending anyone to them directly. Considering my website just went live and I actually am thinking about doing a staffing agency review guide for the Chicagoland area... the potential for more business for them (If anyone actually cares to read it when i get around to it) could possibly increase. Oh well's.

Robert Half is in my bottom half of places I've worked with in Chicago.

Funny you mention TekSystems as I just had lunch w/ 2 of their recruiters last week out here in Downers Grove. He contacted me about a helpdesk position located downtown. I thought Robert Half would be decent, but you live and learn everyday. I also got a hit from Geval6, but I guess that lost interest after I told that guy I couldn't interview until after 5 even though the place they wanted me to interview @ is 15 mins from where I work now.

kohr-ah

coreyb80 wrote: »

Funny you mention TekSystems as I just had lunch w/ 2 of their recruiters last week out here in Downers Grove. He contacted me about a helpdesk position located downtown. I thought Robert Half would be decent, but you live and learn everyday. I also got a hit from Geval6, but I guess that lost interest after I told that guy I couldn't interview until after 5 even though the place they wanted me to interview @ is 15 mins from where I work now.

Ive worked with TekSystems in Downers Grove before. I had a good experience with them.

coreyb80

kohr-ah wrote: »

Ive worked with TekSystems in Downers Grove before. I had a good experience with them.

Always good hear to that.

SweenMachine

kohr-ah wrote: »

Ive worked with TekSystems in Downers Grove before. I had a good experience with them.

I have as well, in regards to TekSystems..

I understand that I am probably clouded because I was with one company for 7 years, and left for a better opportunity that is also appearing to work out. However, while not expecting 'loyalty' per say, a LOT of people don't even fulfill the contact they agreed to after spending 30 mins in the interview spelling out how much they want the role and how they can fit in the team.

My experience is unique, being the one that interviewed and hired people for a level one help desk for years. Being 35, I was probably fairly youngish when I started in regards to having final say over what contractor comes in for the roles; not to mention our company converted those who worked out to employees with nice benefits, and a nice hefty pay increase.

This is what I have noticed about techs:

A lot care more about the resume than actually performing
A lot care more about the status of the job, and will leave as soon as something 'better' comes along, even if that means losing out on a good benefit package because all they care about is their resume statistics.
A lot of techs have no desire to fight through something, they just bail when the going gets tough.

This is what I have noticed (from the BUSINESS side) about staffing companies:
They lie continually to their candidates.
They have no real knowledge of tech, they learn enough to seem knowledgable to the BUSINESS
They really have nothing invested in your interview at ALL, they will get someone in, for the right money.
If they place a higher percentage of people who work out than don't, well, they did their job in the eyes of the business.

This is what I did as the person who worked for the business who submitted the rec:
I don't care about your hurt feelings or how you feel about the crappy staffing firm you came through
Is your resume padded by an overzelaous recruiter?
Can you do the job and be a team player?
Would you be a good future employee (since we hire those who work out)?
Do you even want this job?

I am generalizing a ton, I get that. And all situations are different; but hiring for IT is a hard thing to do, and that has a lot to do with the overall attitude and arrogance of IT people in general (techs, business people, staffing firms). The recruiters happen to be just as arrogant and have just as $%$$ of an attitude as a whole, and that is why its a huge battle, and a lot of hurt feelings.

SweenMachine

And to further another thought I had on this matter:

I completeeeeeely agree with the loyalty thing; I said all of that, but I know what you ALL mean when it comes to companies not showing any. I had to make choices for how I felt about how the desk was going and how people are working out, and if they weren't its never easy to call the contracting company and tell them to let so and so know they will need to find a new way to feed their family.

Andddddd my old company started the ball rolling to outsource...

So I aligned myself with a company who provides IT services... I work for a company who provides IT solutions in the EMR and medical field, and business is outstanding. Now I am on the other side of the outsourcing curve...

That was what I PERSONALLY felt I had to do to get myself (in my mind) ahead of the whole contract recruiter suckfest; because I dealt with it from the other side for SO long.

So that is why I nod my head in agreement to nearly everything on this thread, I am just putting out other opinions and sides for discussion.

-scott

TheProf

I know the feeling, believe me. The thing I've realized, is that no matter how good I am or how many certifications I have, or even if I have 15 years experience, going through a recruiter or going direct is always about negotiations, meaning the employer will try and save as much as possible and the employee will try to earn as much as possible.

From the employer perspective

Depending on the situation, the employer is either in need of someone asap because there's work piling up, or because they're short a person and so sometimes you may end up with a good salary + benefits because they might need you more then you need them. Other times, they're just growing their portfolio or just growing their team and they can afford to wait a little before hiring, so they'll try and get someone for less money. Unless its a consulting job, an IT department in any company is an expense.

From the employee perspective

If you're looking to progress in your career, and by progression I mean earn more money or a better opportunity, you might have to wait a little until something good comes along. You're better off being picky then taking the first job that's available. However, being picky is what makes this whole thing so difficult simply because your emotions tend to make it hard for you to see the big picture. Now I am not saying that this is how you feel, I am just saying from my experience, I know the feeling.

The best advice I can give, is that if you are ready to move on, and you know what you want, try and look at the whole thing as a business transaction. You offer a service with a certain rate, experience, and skillset to potential employers, there are going to be many potential employers, especially if you're good at what you do. If some of those employers cannot offer you what you want, even though they hired someone who is less skilled, then move on, its simple, they're not insulting you, they're just negotiating just like you. That's a normal process, whether its the employer directly or through a recruiter.

I've been in this situation many times, I've had recruiters and companies offer me awesome opportunity with half the salary I am at. The job itself is the most important thing, salary is also very important, but salary alone won't make you happy.

I've always said, if you're good at what you do, you'll always have someone who will offer you a great opportunity with the salary and benefits you want, you just have to be patient and it will come along.

Chitownjedi

SweenMachine wrote: »

I have as well, in regards to TekSystems..

I understand that I am probably clouded because I was with one company for 7 years, and left for a better opportunity that is also appearing to work out. However, while not expecting 'loyalty' per say, a LOT of people don't even fulfill the contact they agreed to after spending 30 mins in the interview spelling out how much they want the role and how they can fit in the team.

My experience is unique, being the one that interviewed and hired people for a level one help desk for years. Being 35, I was probably fairly youngish when I started in regards to having final say over what contractor comes in for the roles; not to mention our company converted those who worked out to employees with nice benefits, and a nice hefty pay increase.

This is what I have noticed about techs:

A lot care more about the resume than actually performing
A lot care more about the status of the job, and will leave as soon as something 'better' comes along, even if that means losing out on a good benefit package because all they care about is their resume statistics.
A lot of techs have no desire to fight through something, they just bail when the going gets tough.

This is what I have noticed (from the BUSINESS side) about staffing companies:
They lie continually to their candidates.
They have no real knowledge of tech, they learn enough to seem knowledgable to the BUSINESS
They really have nothing invested in your interview at ALL, they will get someone in, for the right money.
If they place a higher percentage of people who work out than don't, well, they did their job in the eyes of the business.

This is what I did as the person who worked for the business who submitted the rec:
I don't care about your hurt feelings or how you feel about the crappy staffing firm you came through
Is your resume padded by an overzelaous recruiter?
Can you do the job and be a team player?
Would you be a good future employee (since we hire those who work out)?
Do you even want this job?

I am generalizing a ton, I get that. And all situations are different; but hiring for IT is a hard thing to do, and that has a lot to do with the overall attitude and arrogance of IT people in general (techs, business people, staffing firms). The recruiters happen to be just as arrogant and have just as $%$$ of an attitude as a whole, and that is why its a huge battle, and a lot of hurt feelings.

I love the topics you touched because they point to themes that would probably all be corrected if one quality was more present in the companies that actually set the cadence for many of the issues that are now filtered down to individuals in IT and in any high turnover high demand field.

Lack of leadership. Good leaders tend to instill values/principles/ethics and are able to set standards that go along with loyalty, dedication, sticking through tough times, building foundation, watching things grow and prosper, having some integrity. I must say that in most places I go, the leadership void is usually the width and depth of the grand canyon. Also, mentoring is no longer something you can even hope for because everyone is so dog eat dog now a days, that you're expected to come into a place... be thrown into a lake of fire, then at some point turn all of the things that come along with that into a reason to feel obligated to buckle up and hunker down.

I think if there was more leadership and people to follow in organizations that can teach more meaningful principles beyond just the job aspects, but about being better people/successful/fulfilled/ then people may be willing to overlook certain things and not focus so much on the bottom line. At least employee side with that sentiment.

I actually wonder what's the actual average amount in cost reduction savings that it takes to catalyze an organization to outsource and IT department, and I wonder how much loyalty, dedication, emotion investment, and pride in working for the place is measured in terms of the value it brings, and or if its even ever considered when the decision is made to release an Internal Department. Would be interested in seeing that could be quantified.

I know most places don't decide to re-integrate IT unless they think they can get better value doing so...but it would be hard for people to change their ways unless they were compelled to do so by those character traits. If an organization could save literally just $10,000 a year outsourcing their IT, is that enough for them to lay off people who've worked there 10+ years and love working there? (I don't know if that's all it takes, but hell is business that cut throat? Seems that way..) If so, is the whole "that's just business" get to be a valid argument... and what kind of environment does that create in the employment workforce.

neo9006

It is sad about the situation about loyalty. I been with the same company for 19 years and have literally watched everyone else get rich in the process. I understood some things and why it was happening. I just find things hard myself. I thought at one point I would retire from here but that will not happen. I feel management right now is just sitting on things which is unfortunate. I told my co worker the cracks are starting to show. I understand companies have to work toward profit. But eventually you have to take care of business and the workers you have. I have said it before and say it again if you do not you take care of your people you will suffer in the end plus deserve what you get. It will happen here. We have one engineer that told my co worker yesterday to go find another job, but too bad he doesn't have a contract without our help. I can't see this guy getting all his data and doing that work on top of his duties. He always says he makes too much money to do things. I just laugh in mind thinking about well the sh** is going to hit the fan eventually. When i turn in my two week notice they are down to one guy. I know he can't do it all by himself. Keep your head up peeps and do what you like to do.