polygraphs

SephStormSephStorm Member Posts: 1,732
So anyone here taken a polygraph? I think most people who look into it are aware of their dubious nature, but as someone who has had issue with them in the past, its concerning. There are jobs that i'd like to do, but will require one. I'm not looking for any of those poly deception techniques, i'm looking for honest ideas on how an honest person who reacts to the questions can pass. To be honest I don't get it.

Comments

  • BlackoutBlackout CCENT, CCNA-Security, ITILv3, CompTIA S+, CompTIA A+ Raleigh, NCMember Posts: 512 ■■■■□□□□□□
    I have been around them. Counter Terrorism poly's are ok, you have to watch out for Lifestyle Poly's. Lots of word play in Lifestyles. Seen a a lot of people get hung out to dry on a lifestyle.

    There really isn't a reaction. Just don't lie. even if its something bad, tell the truth about everything they ask.
    Current Certification Path: CCNA, CCNP Security, CCDA, CCIE Security

    "Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect"

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  • NyblizzardNyblizzard Member Posts: 330 ■■■■□□□□□□
    What if there's a specific truth which will 100% disqualify you from getting the job?
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  • BlackoutBlackout CCENT, CCNA-Security, ITILv3, CompTIA S+, CompTIA A+ Raleigh, NCMember Posts: 512 ■■■■□□□□□□
    Nyblizzard wrote: »
    What if there's a specific truth which will 100% disqualify you from getting the job?


    Well then your screwed unfortunately. getting a TS/SCI with poly is not easy, and they don't give them out to everyone. If you get disqualified than oh well. Just wait for the questions and don't freak out. Those operators have heard a lot of crazy crap. They usually wont ask open ended questions, generally yes or no type stuff, some elaboration.
    Current Certification Path: CCNA, CCNP Security, CCDA, CCIE Security

    "Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect"

    Vincent Thomas "Vince" Lombardi
  • BlackoutBlackout CCENT, CCNA-Security, ITILv3, CompTIA S+, CompTIA A+ Raleigh, NCMember Posts: 512 ■■■■□□□□□□
    My wife is a Japanese citizen. When I went up for my initial TS clearance, it was almost a 6 hour interview. They asked me if I have ever given money to a foreign national, I said no, they responded by saying you don't think of your wife as a foreign national? I said no I think of her as my wife, giving money to her is not the same as giving money to a foreign government.
    Current Certification Path: CCNA, CCNP Security, CCDA, CCIE Security

    "Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect"

    Vincent Thomas "Vince" Lombardi
  • TybTyb Member Posts: 207 ■■■□□□□□□□
    If it's a job that requires a polygraph, I'm sure an extensive background check will also be done. I'd say be honest even if it disqualifies you, lie, get the job; it could come back to bite you in the ass later on.
    WGU BS:IT Security (March 2015)
    WGU MS:ISA (February 2016 )
  • jvrlopezjvrlopez Member Posts: 911 ■■■■□□□□□□
    I never understood why people freak out about polys. Just answer the question. The only concern should come about if you have something legitimately bad you are trying to hide, at which case I doubt you are a fit for the position in the first place.

    Be calm and focused. Just think about what is being asked and answer the question directly. Tune out the noise and distractions.
    Blackout wrote: »
    My wife is a Japanese citizen. When I went up for my initial TS clearance, it was almost a 6 hour interview. They asked me if I have ever given money to a foreign national, I said no, they responded by saying you don't think of your wife as a foreign national? I said no I think of her as my wife, giving money to her is not the same as giving money to a foreign government.

    I had the same thing come up during my reinvestigation. My wife is from Japan as well and I asked the investigator if cohabitating with my wife and sharing our income together is considered the same as "giving money to a foreign national."

    She said she was unsure but she would make a note of it.
    And so you touch this limit, something happens and you suddenly can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct, and the experience as well, you can fly very high. ~Ayrton Senna
  • BloogenBloogen Member Posts: 180 ■■■□□□□□□□
    Then you shouldn't work there.
  • atl_libraatl_libra Member Posts: 57 ■■□□□□□□□□
    I have pretty much worked in the Law Enforcement sector for the last 9 years. I have taken probably 4-5 polys during that time. Trust me...you can tell a lie and it not be detected. It greatly depends on your personality and your demeanor during the test. With that said...why take the chance? For the most part, an honest person should have no problem. Just don't go into it psyching yourself out and being overly nervous. If there is something in your past that will be brought to light on the poly...just be truthful. Sounds corny...but in my experience (only police depts), they actually like to see growth in an individual. No one is perfect. Never lie or try and deceive....that is a instant disqualification. I’m also in the Atlanta area. Shoot me a IM if you want to talk more in depth.
  • the_Grinchthe_Grinch Member Posts: 4,164 ■■■■■■■■■■
    Been through three full scope polygraphs myself. Not fun, but a tool that is well served in the National Security/Law Enforcement community. Saves a ton of money on a background check when you can more quickly know if someone will get DQ'd. All that being said, answer honestly and you will be fine. As others have said no one is perfect and they will phrase the questions in a manner that you can answer with a yes or no. I always found that if someone was picked up once you explained it you were good to go. Also, being upfront and honest speaks volumes when it comes to your background check. It always bodes better for you when you let your BI know a head of time instead of them finding out later on.
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  • SephStormSephStorm Member Posts: 1,732
    here is my issue, a poly is not a part of the BI, it's the start and possibly then end of a BI. Don't pass the poly, they dont even take the time to do a BI. I took my poly (several times), never "failed" as far as I can tell, but I didn't pass either. Its a CI poly, no worries, but I reacted to questions, saw the chart. Can I tell you why? No. I have an idea, but it didn't fly to the examiner. I sure as hell didn't lie, no reason to. So if I can't figure it out, I have to cross out a whole range of careers off of my list.

    To those who say "tell the truth and you'll be fine", you're wrong. The poly isn't a lie detector, its a reaction detector, a confidence detector and probably a few other things.
  • atl_libraatl_libra Member Posts: 57 ■■□□□□□□□□
    I'm curious to hear your theory.....
  • NyblizzardNyblizzard Member Posts: 330 ■■■■□□□□□□
    This topic is of great interest to me as I've been recently put on some sort of list with the Department of Justice and could be going through this process within the next year
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  • SephStormSephStorm Member Posts: 1,732
    I've done research on things within the CI realm, it's my opinion that I have strong feelings on the subjects that would cause a reaction. Now recently i've read something that would give concordance to this idea. Ideally the examiner should have worked with me to get past that. I don't know, i'm no expert. Whatever my results, I was offered the opportunity to re-test, but after a few days, I couldn't take any more time off to try again.
  • the_Grinchthe_Grinch Member Posts: 4,164 ■■■■■■■■■■
    Always depends on the agency as to whether or not you are one and done. I've know agencies who did polys on one applicant five times and on the fifth he passed. Other agencies an inconclusive or fail and you are done. A background investigation could run over $100k so you can't blame an agency for doing what they can to not shell out cash for a failure. Is it always fair? No, but few things in life are. In all the polys I have taken if something came up fishy (I had an issue with a question in the CI portion) they asked what it could be in regards to and we circled back if nothing was coming up. Have a few friends who are examiners and depending on the case load they'll work with you when they can. But sometimes that isn't possible and coming back in or saying no can do are the only options.
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  • it_consultantit_consultant Member Posts: 1,903
    atl_libra wrote: »
    I'm curious to hear your theory.....

    There is a reason why polygraphs aren't admitted in a court of law. Take a look at the citations in the following section of the wiki on polygraph.

    Polygraph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Keep in mind that the history of the US intelligence service is rife with traitors who all passed polygraphs. They cannot predict behavior. Edward Snowden passed a polygraph. The John Hansen (the FBI agent convicted of selling secrets to Russian in 2001) passed many polygraphs. It is a feel good tool, a check box without much scientific evidence to support their use.
  • AkaricloudAkaricloud Member Posts: 938
    While lifestyle polygraphs cannot predict behavior, they can help identify people with a higher potential to be blackmailed.

    Generally speaking the more you have to hide, the more you stand to lose if that information is to be made public. If you're able to openly answer all their questions comfortably you should have no issue.

    Strong emotional reactions to simple questions make people security risks. If a person cannot stay level headed during polygraph questions then this could be exploited by someone looking to extract information from them.
  • it_consultantit_consultant Member Posts: 1,903
    Polygraph use for intelligence is even less useful (according to almost all scientific studies on the topic) than use in law enforcement. In law enforcement, while it generally can't be used in court, it can be helpful in ruling people out or identifying people that require more investigation. In intelligence, a polygraph has zero value in predicting whether someone can be easily turned against their country by a foreign operative or if they will go rogue.

    The only way to predict future behavior is by past behavior, and since most people haven't committed espionage, it is practically impossible to determine who will - and the polygraph is a simple tool to make politicians and people who don't know any better more comfortable - like airport security.
  • mokaibamokaiba Member Posts: 162 ■■■□□□□□□□
    just believe everything you say and youll pass. When you tell them youre a cat you are only benefiting yourself. Free padded room with three meals a deal....cant beat that deal.
  • SephStormSephStorm Member Posts: 1,732
    so you can't blame an agency for doing what they can to not shell out cash for a failure.

    No, I wouldn't expect that, I would prefer it be used to target the areas of interest in the investigation when a person doesn't fail, but is not non responsive. So if the investigator sees a spike on questions involving drugs, we need to look more in depth and focus on possible drug connections. I'd say there is a much better chance of finding information that will be useful this way.
    While lifestyle polygraphs cannot predict behavior, they can help identify people with a higher potential to be blackmailed.

    I get the idea, but it has a big loophole. If they simply asked and I provided all the information, its useless for blackmail purposes. "yeah I did X, but my employers already know, and I don't care if you post the pictures on the internet." Now then of course you have to deal with any embarasment to the organization, which can have a negative impact on the agency, but theres a net CI benefit anyway. Now the FIS has had to make a failed approach, opening their TTP's to examination... But that's a different story.
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