Looking for entry level employment advice in iT

farazkhurshid · March 2019

Hi, I am new to the world of iT, specifically linux. I hope to learn alot from here. (and eventually contribute)
I am currently learning Linux system administration as my base skill. I will couple that with AWS cloud, some bash scripting, GET, puppet and possibly some other additional skills. I am taking a local course on these over the next few months just to obtain the skills with a realtime problem solving approach.

As with alot of jobs in IT, there is a job option process for me at the end of the course which essentially fakes job experience through recruiting companies and connects and lands a job within a month or two of the course. These jobs can range easily in 6 figures.

However I am not infatuated with money. Originally I was going to go through the whole process but what interest me is getting my foot in the door, not the money. So this process of faking a year or two of job experience is not sitting well with me. I am willing to not lie about my experience and accept a lower paying job as a consequence. Call it naive or what have you but it hasnt been sitting well with me.

Realistically, without a college degree, and actual paper certifications, what chances do I have of landing anything if I am able to master the skills I am currently learning? I assume my interview would have to be a WOW for it to overcome all the obstacles. After learning these skills I suppose i can go and get actual certs although that would take more time. Unlike my peers in my class I am okay with a lesser pay and a delayed job if I can do it in a cleaner fashion. There is something about sitting across from an employer and looking him/her in the eye and stating my fake job experience which wont let me accept that path.

Any advice, experience, and wisdom are welcome. Thank you.

Pseudonym · March 2019

You can probably land a job, but I can say with a high degree of certainty that your first job is not going to earn you 6 figures.

farazkhurshid · March 2019

That's fair enough. I am not looking for six figures as of yet. Just to get my foot in the door and anywhere from 20-30 an hour. Im even okay with working a 15 an hour job where I can do overtime and earn more for the first 6 months to a year. Whether I make 40k a year or 50k a year, I'm okay with that if I can go into the job process with a clean hand. I may even just an actual cert on let's say AWS on top of the skills just to help my case.

Based on the skills what sort of different job positions do you think might be viable?

Rom1984 · March 2019

I wouldn't go anywhere near lying in a job interview, if the interviewer is experienced you'l be quickly caught out.

For entry level I'd be looking at entry level roles, either;

1) 1st Line helpdesk

2) General IT support - 1st/2nd line support for a medium-larger org

3) General IT support 1st/2nd/3rd for smb where they might pay for an additional support contract to set everything up and provide ad-hoc 3rd line support.

No one will be getting near 6 figures at entry level, nor 40/50k a year. In the UK entry levels pay between 12-18k (UK sterling).for 1st line type roles.

In your interviews I'd concentrate on your soft skills given the lack of experience, so communication skills, willingness to learn, dedication etc. Certs will be good at entry level to show your pro-active, as well as completing your own projects on what ever specialist you want to concentrate on (i.e. Linux/Cloud).

For 1st line support reach out to people in cloud/system admin roles and ask them advice on what projects are coming up. Then look at learning about that tech and asking them if you can shadow them or for parts of the project. Similar with General IT support for medium-large orgs.

For General IT support (smb) you can start doing little projects on non-critial infrastructure such as setting up ticking system using Linux/Cloud based etc so learn the skills that you really want to develop.

farazkhurshid · March 2019

Well if I wanted to I could fake job experience since there will be a team of recruiters and connects working besides me. And I'll be qualified for a system admin job in terms of skill i just wont have the years in experience which is where recruiters and connects come in forge a story and experience and land you a job. But the idea is that by the end of the course I will have the skill to be a system administrator or work in AWS. On top of that we will be trained for interviews and heavily prepped to answer all sorts of questions and practice and learn body language to speaking habits in an interview. So i could easily land a job in 5-7 months as a system admin but I'm choosing not to go that way because its not sitting well with me to sit and lie in front of an employer not because I am afraid of being caught by an interviewer although that can happen as well.

Outside of the previous work experience everything else such as my skills would be true. But I dont want to bs and lie my way in. I would just have to be lucky and wow the interviewer at same time for an interviewer to overlook the lack of experience but hire me because of skill and a drive to learn which isnt easy or common for a job at that level.

And I will check out those jobs and think more about what you said. much appreciated!

MrsWilliams · March 2019

farazkhurshid said:

Well if I wanted to I could fake job experience since there will be a team of recruiters and connects working besides me. And I'll be qualified for a system admin job in terms of skill i just wont have the years in experience which is where recruiters and connects come in forge a story and experience and land you a job. But the idea is that by the end of the course I will have the skill to be a system administrator or work in AWS. On top of that we will be trained for interviews and heavily prepped to answer all sorts of questions and practice and learn body language to speaking habits in an interview. So i could easily land a job in 5-7 months as a system admin but I'm choosing not to go that way because its not sitting well with me to sit and lie in front of an employer not because I am afraid of being caught by an interviewer although that can happen as well.

Outside of the previous work experience everything else such as my skills would be true. But I dont want to bs and lie my way in. I would just have to be lucky and wow the interviewer at same time for an interviewer to overlook the lack of experience but hire me because of skill and a drive to learn which isnt easy or common for a job at that level.

And I will check out those jobs and think more about what you said. much appreciated!

You have to be a certain kind of person to even think of doing such a thing.
You have to be a certain kind of person to even type such a thing on a forum such as this one.
You have to be a certain kind of person to openly admit such a thing.

farazkhurshid · March 2019

Well if anyone needed proof that one can read something and not understand a thing from it then they need not look any further than ^

I'm turning down possible 6 figure salary as a system admin or something close simply because I dont want to go through the dis-honest process. The program I'm in employees everyone this way. The head of the program network with recruiters. Recruiters then network with employers. Recruiters and the head of the program work together to fake job experiences and pass that on to the employer. This is actually common in iT field. Yet even with that opportunity i'm trying to go around that method. I'm sacrificing tens of thousands of dollars simply to try and go about this the right way but I do want to get there. Hence why I am here for advice for my sitiuation because it's harder than getting a job by forging my experience even with the proper skills. So youre right..yes it does take a certain kind of person to do that.

It also takes a certain kind of person to read something quite detailed and not understand it. Feel free to reread and try again rather than abruptly judge.

AvgITGeek · March 2019

Line up some interviews and see how it goes. We can debate and speculate all we like but you're not going to know if you can wow the employer into a position through an interview until you do it.

farazkhurshid · March 2019

Yea I suppose I shouldnt shy away from interviews just because the experience isnt there which does happen mentally at times. Infact I'll probably have to master interviews in order to succeed in my position to cover up for lack of experience.

Thank you

paul78 · March 2019

@farazkhurshid - would you mind sharing your location - I.e what country? And by six-figures - what currency?

I am asking because I have encountered the practices that you mentioned in only 2 different countries where I've conducted business.

I live in the US and falsifying job experience is not practice that in the tolerated here. And it's not a practice that recruiters would typically utilize because of the liability and reputational damage that they would incur. And lastly, for many industries such as financial services, fintech, healthcare, healthtech, etc. - it's a practice that does not work because background checks are an everyday practice for new hires.

If you are being told by whatever program in the US that the first-time placement with no experience will be in the six-figures - that would be a blatant lie - except for certain highly skilled positions such as data scientists, full-stack engineers with functional language skills, in certain metro area like NYC and silicon valley.

If you are live in the US, I want to change your topic slightly - it implied from your post that you are taking a course which includes job placement services. If that's the case, you may want to question the quality of the training it it sounds sounds like a fly-by-night operation.

I applaud you for not wanting to use falsified experience to get your job. We recently had a discussion here about how in certain IT circles - it's very common for hiring managers to use back-channel relationships in addition to background checks to verify a hiring candidate. You would not want to end up with a reputation for being dishonest.

farazkhurshid · March 2019

I live in New York. But I am willing to move if an opportunity presents itself. And what you're saying is definitely correct. Companies are starting to crack down and verify more and more. Especially big companies.

I dont plan on lying. I was just stating that thats how it's often done behind the scenes. A process which I do not wish to be a part of but the legitimate skill learning and realtime problem solving is there. The recruiting companies and the program head basically create a network team to back up the employee. So if an employeer calls to verify references the team knows what to tell them like "yes he worked with us for x amount of years." With this they falsify job experience this way the job is easier to land given the interview goes well. This however would not be happening without them teaching you complete job skills and interview skills. It's about a 4-6 month learning process. So the skill is there 100%. There is no bs on that but it's the experience part that companies look for on top of the skill. I'll have legitimate skills to be a system admin for example. But because I wont be lying about my experience they'll just look at the next guys resume who is. One graduate just landed a networking job with CBS. Full time 6 figures. He has the skill to do the job 100%. But the experience was falsified. I'm not willing to take that route and willing to find lower paying jobs all the while my skill set would be for a job much higher.

And you're definitely right. Those bigger companies are willing to pay for background checks or spend money on obtaining tax history to verify to get the right people so its definitely a risk as you get into more specific and tougher fields.

farazkhurshid · March 2019

And even if you're honest to some of these recuriting companies they tell the employee at times "hey I'm gonna add this and this to your resume to buff it up." Then they send it out to the company. This way if the employee messes up the recruiter company can say "hey listen he told me he had this experience look at his resume" and at that point the only option is for the company to let the employee go and the recruiter company walks out safe. So they also falsify for their own protection. But because they want to get paid they want to employee as many people as possible.

Jon_Cisco · March 2019

The idea that recruiters spice up resumes with lies is not a big surprise. They want to get paid to place people and getting people into the interview is step number one.

What surprises me is that you have found a company that is advertising a method for falsifying your information. Seems that company would quickly get black listed since they are making this falsification scheme public in there business model.

Good luck.

farazkhurshid · March 2019

Yup basically. But it depends on the relationship and network strength that certain recruiting firms or people have. I dont think without proper rapport this is possible. And most of us students dont know these companies by name. They just follow the process since they just care about landing a job. The background work is done by those incharge.

AvgITGeek · March 2019

Good thing I cut the cord years ago if CBS are hiring these folks.

farazkhurshid · March 2019

Well those people are qualified in terms of skill for the job. But yea you're right it does speak to the lack of security the company has when deciding who to let into their company. With the right connects and interview skills it doesnt surprise me either.

paul78 · March 2019

farazkhurshid said:

And even if you're honest to some of these recuriting companies they tell the employee at times "hey I'm gonna add this and this to your resume to buff it up." Then they send it out to the company. This way if the employee messes up the recruiter company can say "hey listen he told me he had this experience look at his resume" and at that point the only option is for the company to let the employee go and the recruiter company walks out safe. So they also falsify for their own protection. But because they want to get paid they want to employee as many people as possible.

The recruiter takes a pretty big risk by doing that. When I fire an employee, I rarely would it for cause. In fact, I don't remember the last that I did a terminate for cause. However, there are going to be companies that would cite termination for cause for falsifying a job application. And in that situation, the terminated employee would not be able to collect unemployment benefits in some states. The recruiter would risk disclosure of their practice by the terminated employee.

Also, every recruiting contract that I have includes a claw-back provision for up to 1 year - so there is financial liability for the recruiter. And many managers will stop working with recruiters with poor track placement records.

If recruiters like this do still exist in the US - they could just be burning through different company entities as they start to get blacklisted. But most savvy companies usually spot this trend. The vast majority of recruiters don't do that.

Personally, I only do business with recruiters that I have had long standing relationships over the past few decades - so perhaps that's why I haven't run into this practice anymore.

I guess I'm kinda surprised that it's possible for a recruiter to lie about experience on someone's resume without that individual's full cooperation and providing prep-work about the lies. The questions about what someone did at a job will come up during the interview. And pretty much everyone that I know that hires people will look up a candidates LinkedIn, check out their public Github repos, or do a quick search for social media postings.

The reality is that candidates lie on their resumes as well and the justification has always been that if someone can do the job, it shouldn't matter. I don't mind some embellishment but falsifying experience is a pretty black/white line for me.

Good luck in your job search. If you are in the NYC area, the market is pretty hot so you ought to be able to land some interviews which hopefully will lead to an offer.

farazkhurshid · March 2019

Yea we been told stories where people have been fired over falsification. It does happen.

And funny you mention LinkedIn. We are told to get rid of those. Or any job related accounts. Even certain things on social media. And if asked why we dont have one we're told just tell them you just dont or never bothered making one.

And just like you have rapport with certain companies I assume they do the same thing. And because these guys are taught the skills it covers up for the recuriting company in the long run because everything just happens to work out most of the time.

And yea I'm hoping to basically amass enough skill, understanding, and a drive to learn where it covers for the lack of experience. I'll definitely be hitting the ny market.

paul78 · March 2019

farazkhurshid said:
And funny you mention LinkedIn. We are told to get rid of those. Or any job related accounts. Even certain things on social media. And if asked why we dont have one we're told just tell them you just dont or never bothered making one.

That's interesting to read. I presume it's because the trainer/recruiter is reducing their risk of getting caught. I'm curious though about the reasoning that the trainer/recruiter provides to their student/trainer. Because it's obviously terrible advice. Are they that blatant about the dishonesty and unethical behavior of what they are doing?

It's pretty unusual for someone in private-sector tech to not have a presence in tech related medium like the Internet

Jon_Cisco · March 2019

I also think there is a fair chance your being misguided about the abilities they are teaching. If they were actually teaching you employable skills it is unlikely they would bother with all of the fake cover ups.

I do wish you well but I hope you have not paid them anything for this service. Companies like that often up sell you on the next placement in case you don't like the company (read get kicked out for lying) after you take the job.

yoba222 · March 2019

I can see how the topic of this thread would incite a lot of emotion in people. Thanks for being honest about this all and sharing. I'm fascinated when you said New York as I expected a response describing someplace more on the India side of the planet. I stand corrected and . . .wow.

NetworkingStudent · March 2019

Rom1984 said:

I wouldn't go anywhere near lying in a job interview, if the interviewer is experienced you'l be quickly caught out.

For entry level I'd be looking at entry level roles, either;

1) 1st Line helpdesk
2) General IT support - 1st/2nd line support for a medium-larger org
3) General IT support 1st/2nd/3rd for smb where they might pay for an additional support contract to set everything up and provide ad-hoc 3rd line support.

No one will be getting near 6 figures at entry level, nor 40/50k a year. In the UK entry levels pay between 12-18k (UK sterling).for 1st line type roles.

In your interviews I'd concentrate on your soft skills given the lack of experience, so communication skills, willingness to learn, dedication etc. Certs will be good at entry level to show your pro-active, as well as completing your own projects on what ever specialist you want to concentrate on (i.e. Linux/Cloud).

For 1st line support reach out to people in cloud/system admin roles and ask them advice on what projects are coming up. Then look at learning about that tech and asking them if you can shadow them or for parts of the project. Similar with General IT support for medium-large orgs.

For General IT support (smb) you can start doing little projects on non-critial infrastructure such as setting up ticking system using Linux/Cloud based etc so learn the skills that you really want to develop.

farazkhurshid Why do you want to stay with a training company that will help you lie your way into a position? At some point the company will find out you do not have the chops, and they may let you go.

MontagueVandervort · March 2019

farazkhurshid said:

After learning these skills I suppose i can go and get actual certs although that would take more time. Unlike my peers in my class I am okay with a lesser pay and a delayed job if I can do it in a cleaner fashion. There is something about sitting across from an employer and looking him/her in the eye and stating my fake job experience which wont let me accept that path.

Get away from these crooks and go get certed up.

Good luck

Muhammed H · March 2019

OP, why don't you try to gain some skills and go for certs and try for a job. If you have the skillset then landing an entrt level job shouldn't be that difficult, specially in a city like NY.

Looking for entry level employment advice in iT

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