jobless MCSE

francoo

the market is flooded of jobless MCSE holders

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blackmage439

Wow, I completely agree 100% that there are unqualified people in jobs they don't deserve. Then again, the bureaucracies of many companies and institutions prevent qualified people from improving anything. I am personally familiar with both aspects.

I am currently staffed as a computer lab aide at my college. About two years ago, they implemented a student-run and student-supporting help desk for the campus-provided email accounts given to each student. Since it began, the help desk has been a borderline joke and nearly a legal explosion of idiocy and neglect. For example, some "admin" in a cushy office at the college decided that having both your complete first and last name in the email addresses was not good enough... to add further "individuality", they threw in the last four digits of every students' SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER in the email addresses!!! Well, to make a long story short, the feds pounced on that recently, and all the digits were made random, and all affected students issued new accounts.

I took this and my personal experience on the help desk as a sign that changes needed to be made. I wrote a lengthy letter to the help desk admin at the campus describing detailed problems that the student help desk faced. You would figure that a person such as myself, with over three years experience in the lab, with a very professionally written letter, would be able to have these problems addressed, right? Well, the short response I got was along the lines of "these issues will be 'addresses'... bring your concerns to your supervisors." As someone said before, this warranted a total "WTF?!" on my part.

This, and many other incidents at my college have since proven to me that title, position, certification, and degrees are nearly meaningless when determining personal worth as an employee. They merely show what you should be able to do... NEVER what a person actually does (for example, and I love this quote, "which one's the router???"

). Degrees are only a baseline... how hard working an individual person is, that is the important part. Also on that fact, don't let employers intimidate you. Sometimes you may be able to run circles around them regarding certain things in your industry. If you believe that you can do a job, don't let someone else make you believe otherwise.

antonio banderas

Kaminsky wrote:

Slowhand wrote:

I sat in with my college professor when the school was hiring for lab assistants and some extra staff for the IT department. I had a couple of MCSE's who didn't know what an MMC was, a CCNA that asked "which one's the router?" when he was asked to plug a cable into a router so he could show us that he was able to configure it. There were tons of people who were A+ certified that didn't know a CPU from their own butts. . . but, in the end, they ended up hiring two people who showed that they'd actually earned their certs. One was an MCSA on Windows 2000, along with Network+ and A+, the other had a couple of CheckPoint security certs and a CCNA, so it worked out pretty well.

Exactly what I keep saying. It comes down to a thorough interview process to weed out the shortcut certifiers. "Which one is the router?" GAH! That's got to be the biggest "wtf?" you have said in a long time.

WOW.... I would love to go to a job and say that...

CICSO only has the model # imprinted on the front of their ROUTERS and SWITCHES in SIZE 20 FONT...

If I ever interview for a job and the salary is not what I expect, I'm going to say that!

Which one's the Switch and what is a console cable? - Great way to not get the job...

Anyways, I did not know that the certifications have deteriorate this much. I have been working in the IT Field for about 8 years so a lot of stuff is just 2nd hand knowledge. This is a sad day when an A+ Tech does not know what a CPU is...

Irish Rover

I have a mix..
I have bits and pieces of level two support.
I have an A + Security + and am waiting on Thursday to get my MCSA
Right Now I am working the help desk in a large enterprise enviornment
I try to make my tickets look like I know what I am doing and people appreciate that
The reason that I am continuing my pursuit of certs is that they are a good indicator of the kind of drive, passion and determination that I pocess in trying to get an IT Network Position.
I have stumbled along the way job wise but get up and keep fighting that is my way.
I think that good points are being made by frustrated hiring managers about paper certs however equally good points can be made that IT is really black and white .
You do need a standard , perhaps not set by anyone company but a standard is necessary.
I will keep up my drive and keep you guys updated... how it goes both with the job search and the certs

As an aside I think that the best advice I ever heard was that if you want to be an admin you need to think like an admin.
I have already been on a couple of second interviews for network positions and the only reason that I did not get them I think is I need a couple of more months getting my hands dirty ...level II support help desk.....great start....job ...If you are able to handle a level one help desk ticket without much assistance then you may be ready for the next level... It is worth stepping back to sling shot forward....

Irish Rover

helms20 wrote:

IMHO I think that one of the reasons is that many MCSE's with no experience feel to proudful to work for an entry level job. Alot of the people I have talked to say "I have my MCSE so why would I work for HELPDESK?" Unfortuanately for them they are stuck in a dead end job and cannot even get an interview.

One of the best things you can do to get your "foot in the door" is to apply to any job that you believe you would be interested in and can actually perform the work. Many companies say they want xx amount of experience but in the end are willing to accept someone that is willing to learn and work. Unfortuantely the bad part about this is the pay rate which has been mentioned previously.

I have posted previously... you need to get your foot in the door..
By the way why shouldnt someone work helpdesk if they are not able to land a job any place else.. I am doing it right now and it is in a large (75000) user enviornment.
I have to "think like an admin" I have a mix of level 1 and 2 experience along with certs.. and school. If you really feel you lack experience do something about it ..even if it means voluntarily setting up systems for a charity or at a school, church etc.
If you truly are qualified help desk will come easy , you will sail it will get recognized.
If you cannot perform at a help desk level then you do not really have a viable MCSE or A + or whatever cert...
Step back sling shot forward...

mgeorge

blargoe wrote:

Trust me when I say an MCSE on a resume with no work experience is NOT a positive. At least it hasn't been at any company I've worked for.

Well obviously I have to disagree with this statement considering I'm only 20 and have a shitload of certs to list and only 2-3 years of tax documented employement (excluding my self employment on the side)

I am about to take a job at a local telecommunications for 63k a year at only 20 and now for the kicker, I am a part time teacher at a local community college teaching MCSE/CCNP couses...

Dont ever let age/experince fool you. They are just numbers that carry quite a bit of weight. Just because some one is inexperinced dosent always mean they arn't intelligent, always give the canadidate(s) the benifit of the doubt. Most of my experince comes from my home lab which includes 7 servers, 15 workstations and a 4,000 dollar Cisco rack in my closet.

The people who make Computers and Voice/Data Communications their hobby, are typically the people who are the most knowledgeable in their given area of expertise. I'm talking about people who setup complete replica's of business networks and break it just to figure out new solutions to go about solving complications.

You have to admit their are people in the IT field that are "naturals" at what they do.

I have passed every exam with flying colors and have studied for individual exam(s) at most, a week or less.

Although I'll admit, I think my upcomming CCIE R&S lab exam is gonna catch me off guard but it would be amazing if I passed it first time. I'm hoping to take it and pass within a year or two. Would be nice to get it at 21, it would make a great 21st birthday present...

And as for the paper cert(s) folk, the interviewers should always ask candidates scenario questions to authenticate their certifications and/or knowledge related to the position they are applying for.

But off the record, I think I'm going to love my new job, one of the benifits is I get free access to a $300,000 dollar Cisco lab in the administrative offices (primarly used for break and fix scenarios) the lab has several cat3750's, 3725's, 7200 series routers, cat6500's, 2 GSR's, etc... I'll be allowed to use the lab off hours from 5-8pm Which I think will be great lab time for my CCIE R&S

Main Event

x_Danny_x wrote:

some of the folks dont get the opportunity to land a job because not given the chance to begin with for such a long time and have to settle for something else.

i for instance didnt get hired for anything for a long period of time and took this blasted telecommunications job. i had to learn what the job required which was nothing related to what i studied in all my certs.

i understand like some say that you need to keep it up and keep hacking but if you are doing some other type of job that you didnt even studied, your skills from what you learn from your certs is going to decrease.

if someone cannot answer some very easy questions such us knowing the hardrive, then yeah, dont hire them but Certs are just that, paper certs. They are supposed to help you land some entry level job and with little to no expereance required. I dont know how people with certs and no experience are going to compete with guys that have experience.

I agree to a extent, some people just never get the chance becuase of other factors period.

Plantwiz

Main Event wrote:

x_Danny_x wrote:

some of the folks dont get the opportunity to land a job because not given the chance to begin with for such a long time and have to settle for something else.

i for instance didnt get hired for anything for a long period of time and took this blasted telecommunications job. i had to learn what the job required which was nothing related to what i studied in all my certs.

i understand like some say that you need to keep it up and keep hacking but if you are doing some other type of job that you didnt even studied, your skills from what you learn from your certs is going to decrease.

if someone cannot answer some very easy questions such us knowing the hardrive, then yeah, dont hire them but Certs are just that, paper certs. They are supposed to help you land some entry level job and with little to no expereance required. I dont know how people with certs and no experience are going to compete with guys that have experience.

I agree to a extent, some people just never get the chance becuase of other factors period.

MainEvent, have your read your sig?

What sort of 'factors' are you suggesting prohibit people from landing the job they want? Everyone has a chance if they really, really want something. You go after it until you get. There is no stopping a person who is committed to following their dream. Today though it just seems that a kid reaches 25 and they haven't made it to the top of some corporate ladder and they think life's dealt them a bad hand.

Good workers, good personality, motivated people succeed. Whinners, short-cut takers, squeaky wheels may catch a break here and there, but not many people want to work with people who have these traits.

If someone wants a great corporate job, and either become pregnant or gets a women pregnant....there is a new choice in front of them....however, I'll argue that someone really dedicated to their dream won't EVER let that happen. Family is important and is very special if and when the time is right. Hoeing around inbetween jobs because you don't have the job you want or partying until 3am, stumbling in around 5am is a persons lifestyle...these are not the types of traits employers generally look for. The confidence a person has, the training and ability to show motivation and be a self-starter is what gets people in the door at places.

Sure it may be 'who' you know, but how many land that dream job because they ran into some executive at a mosh pit?

It's a choice how you go through life. Do you life like a college kid with no real concept that ride won't last forever? Do you make excuses? Do you stay with a project even if you won't get paid for the extra time? Do you teach people as you go through tasks? Do you go on Spring Break and get in a wreck making your return trip delayed and therefore missing a interview that was scheduled for your return?

Yep, sometimes life hits a person hard. Been there. How you act and how your outlook is on the long-term goal is where people succeed. I think you CAN do it if you really want.

Your sig pretty much sums that up

Kasor

Certification will not get you a job, but experience will.

Obi-LAN-Kenobi

I think the market is flooded with paper MCSE's (they got the cert, but no engineering experience). There will always be a market for engineers that can backup their knowledge with experience.