I walked into a job....they are using Workgroups!!! Ahhh!

This place is big enough to implement Domain model, but I started a new job and they are using Workgroups!!! We have Domain controllers, but the some workstations log on locally while others use domain authentication.

This is the worst part...I'm training with the guy who has been responsible for updating the network. WE are essentialy peers, but he has more seniority, and that matters at this place.
He is a complete bonehead! In most scenarios I will give someone the benefit of the doubt, but his priorities are completely skewed.

Things I walked into.

1) No documentation of devices or network topology. No network topology diagram and rough excel file with IP addresses.

2) Computer naming scheme is nonexistent in portions of the network. Some portions are ok, but others will neglect computer names altogether.

3) Administrator password given to NOn-IT staff when initial computer rollout was made.
This means a temporary worker with little computer skills has access to the local administrator password for workstations running workgroup model.

4) Workgroup model with partial domain model. Its not a hybrid model....just a lack of design and planning.

The worst part about is I'm training under this guy and he tells my boss it takes 6 months to get a grasp of the network...I'm estimating it should only take 1 month at best.
HE doesn't listen to my ideas about domains and servers, which are pulled straight from MS Press books. Its like I'm working with a rogue idiot. Its that bad.

Goldmember

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iowatech

Just out of general curiosity how many servers/clients are involved?

mikej412

Goldmember wrote:

I'm training under this guy and he tells my boss it takes 6 months to get a grasp of the network

Maybe that guy thinks you were hired as his replacement -- and the 6 months is probably how long he thinks it will take him to find another job.

snadam

wow, sounds like a big ol' RED FLAG!!!

so, how long until you tell his superior that he has no clue what he is doing?

Goldmember

snadam wrote:

wow, sounds like a big ol' RED FLAG!!!

so, how long until you tell his superior that he has no clue what he is doing?

I've never had to do this and it might cause dissention amongst the management folks.

I kind of want to because this network has some serious technical deficiencies that shouldn't be allowed, and the fact that he is not willing to listen to my suggestions....ahhhhhh

Give me 2 more months...haha

Goldmember

iowatech wrote:

Just out of general curiosity how many servers/clients are involved?

7-10 servers and 200 clients

taktsoi

Walking into a worse crap infrastructure is a challenge. If you are able to take the challenge, do the job, fix the crap, show what you've got to your boss, you will get promoted with tons of benefits, increased salary, and much more.

Things are not always smooth......

The guy who is above you sounds less challenge, less capable than you. However, if he could work closely with your boss and your boss takes his advice, this is his best part. And that means that he could bad mouth you as well.

If he insists on doing his way and your boss trusts him more than you, your way will ever look stupid to them. Just be aware.

Plus, if possible, could you build a testing lab to show to your boss about your capability? having about 10+ servers PLus 200 + workstations in workgroup is non-sense and ridiculous......

just my 2 cents

iowatech

Ok, with that many servers/clients, and the level of incompetancy you've described it's rather humorous that the network still functions even remotely close to a level deemed useful by an end user.

I've dealt with a similiar situation like this twice. Pardon the questions but what is your plan on dealing with it? How are you going to formulate your plan to make things better given the political quagmire it seems to be?

Again just curious, I love reading about this sort of thing, in my opinion this type of situation is where the real fun begins. Showing people how good you can make something out of a such a mess and make their business and lives much smoother and more profitable.

Plantwiz

taktsoi wrote:

Walking into a worse crap infrastructure is a challenge. If you are able to take the challenge, do the job, fix the crap, show what you've got to your boss, you will get promoted with tons of benefits, increased salary, and much more.

Things are not always smooth......

The guy who is above you sounds less challenge, less capable than you. However, if he could work closely with your boss and your boss takes his advice, this is his best part. And that means that he could bad mouth you as well.

....

Your choice here, but I'd tred lightly for a bit.

1. if you are younger (and no offense), but you'll lose more ground then gain if you attempt to shoot your mouth off and just say what they have in place sucks (even if it does).
2. If you two are peers...consider that upper-management already knows this guys skills and when they smell something new on the network...they'll likely know where credit belongs.
3. Document. Not for a CYA though in the process, this will happen

, but to establish ROI and budgetary forecasts. You'll want to show the prescribed change, the cost and the return on investment and how this benefits. Writing will be a blessing for you and if you want change to happen, you'll really want to show it on paper especially to non-IT types.

Goldmember

In response to the last few posters....

The problem is the upper management trusts his opinion and I'm very new at this point.
I already mentioned that the network was deficient and needed documentation to his boss and they said to take awhile and learn from him....the problem is there isn't much to learn.

Its a government job so what do you expect...

Hopefully in a few months I can put something together.

iowatech

Its a government job so what do you expect...

Things are crystal clear now!

Plantwiz

Goldmember wrote:

Its a government job so what do you expect...

What did you expect when you accepted the position?

nice343

Goldmember wrote:

Its a government job so what do you expect...

.

read my mind

didn't you.

I knew it had something to do with government. Walk into a private firm and you will not see this nonsense

KGhaleon

nice343 wrote:

Goldmember wrote:

Its a government job so what do you expect...

.

read my mind didn't you.

I knew it had something to do with government. Walk into a private firm and you will not see this nonsense

Am I missing out on something, are you saying workgroups are good or bad if it's government? I wouldn't make a big deal out of it, but at least recommend to the guy your working with that he considering upgrading the network to a domain. Tell him the advantages.

snadam

KGhaleon wrote:

nice343 wrote:

Goldmember wrote:

Its a government job so what do you expect...

.

read my mind didn't you.

I knew it had something to do with government. Walk into a private firm and you will not see this nonsense

Am I missing out on something, are you saying workgroups are good or bad if it's government? I wouldn't make a big deal out of it, but at least recommend to the guy your working with that he considering upgrading the network to a domain. Tell him the advantages.

you're definitely in a tight spot. Being fairly "green" in your employers' eyes sucks (especially when its obvious you are more knowledgeable than your boss). When the time is right ,and the relationship with your boss hasn't changed for the better, I would supersede your boss and go straight to the next guy up about best practices and major improvements to the network...

OR you can wait until something breaks and go "SEE?!? This is why I would recommend 'X' solution"

its a tough call...

Goldmember

This guy is using the government stuff as an excuse from what I've seen...

He just isn't that good....

You know how some of us "live and breathe" MS, Cisco, and networking...

This guy reminds me of the weekend warrior tech. He is good, but doesn't "get it".

He thinks building a ghost image is "lengthy task"....

He just takes twice as long to do everything as me when it comes to tech because he does it the wrong way....

He keeps telling me not to do things "by the book"....basically he makes up his own rules....

I'm definitely getting my MCSE next year and going into Cisco/MS consulting after a few years...
Did I mention I used to be a CCNP?

Plantwiz

Goldmember wrote:

This guy is using the government stuff as an excuse from what I've seen...

He just isn't that good....

You know how some of us "live and breathe" MS, Cisco, and networking...

This guy reminds me of the weekend warrior tech. He is good, but doesn't "get it".

He thinks building a ghost image is "lengthy task"....

He just takes twice as long to do everything as me when it comes to tech because he does it the wrong way....

He keeps telling me not to do things "by the book"....basically he makes up his own rules....

I'm definitely getting my MCSE next year and going into Cisco/MS consulting after a few years...
Did I mention I used to be a CCNP?

Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly, but you sound like a young mouthy brat.

Maybe you do know more then this guy. So WHAT. You interviewed at this place right? Why didn't you ask to meet the team BEFORE you accepted to work there. I've no problem with people who have high standards for things and want the people around them to act accordingly, but you are the 'new' guy on the team and were not hired as the lead (based on the above comments).

As I've asked you already, what did you expect when you accepted a Gov't position? It's not a secret that Gov't work is slow to change and the people are even slower to accept the changes.

If you care enough about your position then take the time and make the case without throwing it in their faces. There is a mature way to handle this and get exactly what you want. If you want instant results, I think you should start looking elsewhere or start your own business. Even private businesses don't make huge changes over night.

New guy on the block....observe, listen and make smart recommendations at the correct time. And if necessary....document it with charts and such to SHOW the cost savings and the ROI for the investment in these areas.

You can do it, but not by complaining about how 'stupid' eveyone around you is.

Megadeth4168

Goldmember wrote:

Its a government job so what do you expect...

Hey, watch it! I work a Government Job!

Seriously, I get it though.... You still have some things to learn about Government jobs. I work as a 2 Man IT department with a very similar setup to what you described. There are certain politics that exist in this type of work environment. No matter how inefficient something might be, it will not be changed if certain people don't want it changed....

blargoe

I'd be careful about pleading your case and using the book to back you up. You know your way works better, you need to prove your case. How you do that depends on the situation.

Is the boss a technical guy or "just a manager"? In normal companies, you can usually make some waves if you can attach some kind of $$$ savings (remember, time is money too) when you are pleading your case.

Goldmember

Plantwiz wrote:

Goldmember wrote:

This guy is using the government stuff as an excuse from what I've seen...

He just isn't that good....

You know how some of us "live and breathe" MS, Cisco, and networking...

This guy reminds me of the weekend warrior tech. He is good, but doesn't "get it".

He thinks building a ghost image is "lengthy task"....

He just takes twice as long to do everything as me when it comes to tech because he does it the wrong way....

He keeps telling me not to do things "by the book"....basically he makes up his own rules....

I'm definitely getting my MCSE next year and going into Cisco/MS consulting after a few years...
Did I mention I used to be a CCNP?

Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly, but you sound like a young mouthy brat.

I'm the mouthy brat now

....well I guess its ok to call someone a mouthy brat and give advice on maturity in the same post.....

that is news to me...

networker050184

Like others have stated government agencies have a lot of policies that can not be changed easily. You should probably read through all of their IT policies before assuming that no one knows what they are talking about. It is possible that work groups are part of an old policy that has not been changed and therefore you can not implement anything but.

Did I mention I used to be a CCNP?

What does this have to do with an MS domain disscusion????

mobri09

don't open your mouth to soon...I would study that network and know it inside and out then start making calls. good luck

Lee H

Hi

I gotta put my 2 pence worth on this one

My second IT job was in a secondary school 11-16 year olds.

The network was all 2k with really old clients and some 10baseT switches

The school secured the funds to rewire the entire network with a gig fibre backbone netgear layer 2 and 3 switches, and then not so long after that we installed refurbished / new xp PC's. Was sweet to see the transformation.

My point is this. Rather than supporting an up to date network with latest technologies which would only develop maintenance skills, you have a massive oportunity that many IT guys may not have had. You will witness and probably take part in deploying a new network. In a later job you may see the same issues and you will have had 1st hand knowledge of how it is resolved.

There is more good points to your job than bad.

And this guy you work with who you say knows nothing. You may be right but it will take time before people listen to you before him.

Lee H

sprkymrk

Lee H wrote:

My point is this. Rather than supporting an up to date network with latest technologies which would only develop maintenance skills, you have a massive oportunity that many IT guys may not have had. You will witness and probably take part in deploying a new network. In a later job you may see the same issues and you will have had 1st hand knowledge of how it is resolved.

There is more good points to your job than bad.

And this guy you work with who you say knows nothing. You may be right but it will take time before people listen to you before him.

Lee H

+1.

Plantwiz

Goldmember wrote:

Plantwiz wrote:

Goldmember wrote:

This guy is using the government stuff as an excuse from what I've seen...

He just isn't that good....

You know how some of us "live and breathe" MS, Cisco, and networking...

This guy reminds me of the weekend warrior tech. He is good, but doesn't "get it".

He thinks building a ghost image is "lengthy task"....

He just takes twice as long to do everything as me when it comes to tech because he does it the wrong way....

He keeps telling me not to do things "by the book"....basically he makes up his own rules....

I'm definitely getting my MCSE next year and going into Cisco/MS consulting after a few years...
Did I mention I used to be a CCNP?

Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly, but you sound like a young mouthy brat.

I'm the mouthy brat now ....well I guess its ok to call someone a mouthy brat and give advice on maturity in the same post.....

that is news to me...

Once again you've not responded to my question!

You post about how 'stupid' the people you work with are and how super-smart you are because you've already identified the way they've been working is b-a$$-akwards and are missing the opportunity of suggestions made by the members in this thread.

You took a position for an organization and without bothering to learn about the 'why' they do it so stupidly, insist that they are completely wrong.

I know in my post I've made recommendations for you to GET YOUR POINT ACROSS. I've read other's comments where they've also offered you suggestions on how to proceed.

Do it your way. Assume that everyone around you is a complete idiot. Miss great opportunities both now and in the future by alienating those around you and proceeding through life with a closed mind.

As for being a mouthy-brat....that's my only comment you decide to notice? Says something now doesn't it??

I call it like I see it

Good luck!

Mishra

Goldmember wrote:

Plantwiz wrote:

Goldmember wrote:

This guy is using the government stuff as an excuse from what I've seen...

He just isn't that good....

You know how some of us "live and breathe" MS, Cisco, and networking...

This guy reminds me of the weekend warrior tech. He is good, but doesn't "get it".

He thinks building a ghost image is "lengthy task"....

He just takes twice as long to do everything as me when it comes to tech because he does it the wrong way....

He keeps telling me not to do things "by the book"....basically he makes up his own rules....

I'm definitely getting my MCSE next year and going into Cisco/MS consulting after a few years...
Did I mention I used to be a CCNP?

Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly, but you sound like a young mouthy brat.

I'm the mouthy brat now ....well I guess its ok to call someone a mouthy brat and give advice on maturity in the same post.....

that is news to me...

Aside from the name-calling, planetwiz has some good points. You are welcome to rant and rave about how stupid your employee is but I would keep all that frustration completely hidden in your new job.

Sit back and start creating ideas and future plans for the company. Be organized and simply show that you are the more mature and virtually more experienced person. Prove to your boss that you can handle yourself and build a healthy relationship. Be confident but not cocky or angry. Don't sit in meetings and try to talk over the guy. Just wait for your turn and then speak what you believe the right thing is to do.

Take it slow and cool like Fonzie.

paintb4707

Mishra wrote:

Goldmember wrote:

Plantwiz wrote:

Goldmember wrote:

This guy is using the government stuff as an excuse from what I've seen...

He just isn't that good....

You know how some of us "live and breathe" MS, Cisco, and networking...

This guy reminds me of the weekend warrior tech. He is good, but doesn't "get it".

He thinks building a ghost image is "lengthy task"....

He just takes twice as long to do everything as me when it comes to tech because he does it the wrong way....

He keeps telling me not to do things "by the book"....basically he makes up his own rules....

I'm definitely getting my MCSE next year and going into Cisco/MS consulting after a few years...
Did I mention I used to be a CCNP?

Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly, but you sound like a young mouthy brat.

I'm the mouthy brat now ....well I guess its ok to call someone a mouthy brat and give advice on maturity in the same post.....

that is news to me...

Aside from the name-calling, planetwiz has some good points. You are welcome to rant and rave about how stupid your employee is but I would keep all that frustration completely hidden in your new job.

Sit back and start creating ideas and future plans for the company. Be organized and simple show that you are the more mature and virtually more experienced person. Prove to your boss that you can handle yourself and build a healthy relationship. Be confident but not cocky or angry. Don't sit in meetings and try to talk over the guy. Just wait for your turn and then speak what you believe the right thing is to do.

Take it slow and cool like Fonzie.

What he said.

impelse

I found some similar situation in my actual job, In the beginning a begin to said that the network was configured wrong.

I begin to chance one computer by one in one or two month the network was fiexd, my boss continued to said that we do not need this staff but later after I implemented one by one he begin to see me not like his competition, but like his partner,

So begin to fix the network one by one computer and later after they see you changed the will begin to trust you.

SWM

Rather than attacking the other guy, leave him out of the loop. Research, document and explain changes that you want to make. Explain the benefit of a Domain model, Group policy, security benefits, WSUS, easy of management, better response times from the IT department, less downtime for staff etc.

Boss's love this sh1t !!! Show him economical reasons for change and you are away.

Dont bad mouth the other guy, just explain reasons for change and your worth to the company will grow rapidly.

Good luck

KGhaleon

sprkymrk wrote:

Lee H wrote:

My point is this. Rather than supporting an up to date network with latest technologies which would only develop maintenance skills, you have a massive oportunity that many IT guys may not have had. You will witness and probably take part in deploying a new network. In a later job you may see the same issues and you will have had 1st hand knowledge of how it is resolved.

There is more good points to your job than bad.

And this guy you work with who you say knows nothing. You may be right but it will take time before people listen to you before him.

Lee H

+1.

I've been meaning to say, but you're addition is excellent.

Turgon

Im afraid the 'boss' just isn't going to have time for an afternoon's seminar showing off what you know about the latest NOS, what you have found about the state of affairs on the infrastructure and how much better you could do things and the benefits to the bottom line. He's just too busy.

How do I know? Well I used to work for 'him', then I became 'him' for a couple of years and ended up with things to worry about that go way beyond any best practice in MS books regarding groups policies and everything else!

This situation is all about not being a ****. You may think this guy is a cock, but you are new and have no exposure to the 'good', real or perceived he has done in the past. Some people there may think the world of him there and for good reason. As for you the new guy they may care little for your group policy wotsit. Honestly, if you accept a new job then the best advice anyone can give you is to turn up for work on time, pay attention, show respect, and take it from there. No body likes a new person who is cocksure.

My advice is to settle down and concentrate on building a good working relationship with this guy, his boss and everyone else. Yes, you may not like the way things hang together or rate this persons abilities but who cares? He's been there a while by the sounds of things. You may also be wrong. Sure, according to the books things may not be 'in line', but then so are many other networks worldwide.

Your ideas may be good, but the organisation may not be ready for them just yet. If you are right about everything, then you already have the technical answers. That's the easy part. Now you need the people answers. That's much harder and takes time. Win friends and influence them. Work with your peer and listen. He had kudos based on experience there, you have kudos based on credentials and a decent interview. Now you are on the inside and have decided both he and the infrastructure blows, find out what he knows that has value within that organisation and to the people he supports. You may learn something useful you won't learn in the MS Press books.

You took the job so be aware that you may very well be working with this person for a year at least. Try and learn what they know, keep an open mind, be respectful, be loyal and try and help out. Lots of people join shops think things are crap and want to change things too quickly and it often backfires rubbing up people you have to work with for years the wrong way. It's about people not technology. Your users will tell you that. They might think this guy is just swell and if the ones you speak to don't, some influential ones you don't speak to may do.