My Brother.....

My younger brother is graduating high school in about a month. He doesn't really know what he wants to do. He plans to go to college, but in my opinion doesn't have a good gameplan down about what he will study, etc..

He also wants to get a job. Once again, he doesn't have a good idea of what he can or wants to do here. As I read commonly on this board, it's difficult to bust into IT...much more difficult than it was for me around 20 years ago.

I've been working on a plan for him, and I'd like to hear some of your thoughts about it.

Some background: He has many years experience building and repairing computers. He's familiar with doing OS installs, troubleshooting problems, etc.. He enjoys technology, especially the gaming aspect. He is social, but with a tight group. He is very business-oriented when it comes to getting things done. He is one of the toughest people I have ever known (several years ago he broke his arm in a compound fracture...when I met him at the emergency room, his arm looked like a question mark, but with part of the bone sticking through the skin....he didn't cry once during that entire event, which really set the bar pretty high....if I ever break my arm like he did, I'm going to cry!)

First, I'm going to work with him on completing the A+ within the next couple of months. I think he has the knowledge to pass it, and if he will study for a month or so passing should be no problem. I am doing this because I think it will give him a decent chance of getting hired at a Geek Squad type position. Is my train of thought on how to address his desire to get a job reasonable? What other technical things could he do to prepare himself? I'm working with him on soft skills, such as interviewing, etc..

Second, he's enrolling in a local school that is also a Cisco Academy. They offer a 4 part CCNA class as well as a 4 part CCNP class. As he is taking the standard english, history, etc.. that everyone takes their first two years, I have proposed a plan where during his first four semesters he would complete the 4 CCNA courses that are offered. At the end of this and with enough study and practice, he should be adaquately prepared for the CCNA sometime in late 2009.

As I might have related in other posts, my experience is that the specific degree field chosen is irrelevant, especially during the first two years when everyone takes the same English, history, etc...

Throughout all of this, as I have opportunities to expose him to other training I will. For example, I can easily send him through an ITIL Foundation or Practitioner class within the next year.

I believe that his interest in technology is sufficient to pursue this path.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on this. When I graduated high school I really didn't have anyone that sat down with me and worked on a plan, and told me the benefits of For the most part, I got a lucky break early on and learned from my successes and failures.

Now for the good news. I've worked around the financial services industry for many years. When 529 plans came about in the late 90's I wisely opened one up for him. There appears to be enough in there to get him through most of a 4 year degree.

A question though...I'm checking, but if anyone knows off the top of their head it would be great. Any expenses that are not related to higher education paid for out of a 529 plan incur a 10% penalty and are taxed as income. I know that buying a laptop, for example, is considered a qualifying expense. What I am unclear about is this: Would setting up a home lab for his CCNA be a qualifying expense? What about certification exam fees and study aids? I'm checking on these things, but explaining "CCNA lab" to a financial management person is a little difficult, especially since I don't know that much about CCNA labs myself.

Apologies for the long post and thanks in advance for your thoughts,

MS

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Comments

dynamik

Any chance he can get a job at the school? That would probably provide better experience than working for Best Buy.

What degree is he planning on getting? Those CCNA and CCNP classes will probably not transfer to most other programs. This seems like a technical AA degree. If he's thinking about a BA/BS and or MA/MS, he should see if those will work for what he wants to do. If not, he should probably consider taking something else. I've seen many people waste a lot of time and money by not thinking ahead (I'm not saying you aren't, but it's definitely something you both should keep in mind).

CCNA labs are just Cisco routers and switches with various accessories (racks, cables, etc.). It's equipment that he needs (needs, right?) to have in order to study. Equipment for eight courses seems to be pretty important. I'm not really familiar with the program though, so I can't give you a definitive answer.

eMeS

dynamik wrote:

Any chance he can get a job at the school? That would probably provide better experience than working for Best Buy.

What degree is he planning on getting? Those CCNA and CCNP classes will probably not transfer to most other programs. This seems like a technical AA degree. If he's thinking about a BA/BS and or MA/MS, he should see if those will work for what he wants to do. If not, he should probably consider taking something else. I've seen many people waste a lot of time and money by not thinking ahead (I'm not saying you aren't, but it's definitely something you both should keep in mind).

CCNA labs are just Cisco routers and switches with various accessories (racks, cables, etc.). It's equipment that he needs (needs, right?) to have in order to study. Equipment for eight courses seems to be pretty important. I'm not really familiar with the program though, so I can't give you a definitive answer.

The path that I'm steering him to is a BS at a school that offers the Cisco classes. The technical courses will count as pure electives is my understanding at this point. He may very well exceed his need for elective hours if he pursues this path. The only courses that I've mapped out for him during the 1st two years that would not apply to any degree are the 4 CCNA courses.

I personally did waste a lot of time and money in my early years in college by not planning properly. I have something like 190 undergraduate hours, yet only 158 of them are applied to degrees.....fortunately most of the money was someone else's (tuition reimbursement), but the time I will never get back!

Your explanation makes sense to me, and it is largely the one I used with the person that I asked, but I still don't have a definitive answer. Part of the reason I don't have that answer yet is because financial services companies don't want to be held liable for providing incorrect information in such as situation. If I did incur a tax bill for something they told me I wouldn't, in all liklihood they would be have to make good on the bad information.

Thanks for the idea about working at the school. We hadn't considered that . I think his chances of getting that type of job in IT at the school will be increased after he's successfully completed a semester there.

Thanks for your reply,

MS

Talic

Tell him to look for a IT internship at hes school, that should give him some good experience. If its anything like my school, one of the IT professors should be in charge of it. From my experience, internship is about the only way to get decent job experience in the IT field when your looking for a part-time job.

It might be a good idea for him to take a Networking+ class at school, even being around computers all the time doesn't prepare you for networking.

jamesleecoleman

wow! I know this isn't gonna answer any of your questions but makes you look really cool doing all of this for your brother. I think you would be a good example to older brothers and sisters.

eMeS

jamesleecoleman wrote:

wow! I know this isn't gonna answer any of your questions but makes you look really cool doing all of this for your brother. I think you would be a good example to older brothers and sisters.

I appreciate the compliment....but I must admit that partially my motivation is selfish.

I look at it this way...it is much less expensive for me to plan and pay for his education, and guide him through it, vs. the cost of him not being able to support himself as an adult. In other words, I'm hoping to do as much as I can to avoid having my brother, at say age 35, have to move in with me because he has no job, no skills, and nowhere else to go...

Also, his father was never really around. Since I was 20 when he was born, I have always played the role of father for him.

To everyone here: If you are a parent, or have children for which you are responsible, save early and often for college. You will pay for their education (or lack of it) in one way or another.

MS

[/i]

snadam

you are a pretty good brother, and he is a lucky SOB if you doing this for him. I wish my sibling was the same way...

As long as he ditches the "I'm 18 I know everything" attitude, OR you can easily beat his ass into submission, then he should be on the right track

Either way, just drill it in his head that while doing the grunt work sucks now, experience (along with the other credentials) is what will give him the best competitive edge over everyone else in the future. Way to start him early!

eMeS

snadam wrote:

you are a pretty good brother, and he is a lucky SOB if you doing this for him. I wish my sibling was the same way...

As long as he ditches the "I'm 18 I know everything" attitude, OR you can easily beat his ass into submission, then he should be on the right track

Either way, just drill it in his head that while doing the grunt work sucks now, experience (along with the other credentials) is what will give him the best competitive edge over everyone else in the future. Way to start him early!

Thanks snadam...he's a good kid, and mostly doesn't have that attitude. His main problem is a bit of stubborness, but it doesn't originate from thinking he knows everything.

The big challenge might be to break him away from Rock Band long enough to study something...

As far as beating him into submission...I decided to take the diplomatic approach with him several years ago when it became clear that he was going to be taller than me. I'm 5'8", he's now 6'1" and appears to still be growing. On the other hand, it appears that I have achieved my maximum height.

His height advantage + his youthful vigor + my 37yo, out of shape self = me getting owned....at least until I could grab a weapon or something....

MS

jamesleecoleman

From what you explained to me it doesn't sounds selfish but that you are looking out for the wellbeing of your brother and his future. Also to help insure that he has a future in something instead of sitting around and not doing anything. I see people (kids and grown ups) standing on the corners in the southeast side of Grand Rapids just doing nothing and waiting for their "boys" or something like that. Sometimes I think that they're not gonna do anything with their lives just by standing on a street corner but I don't know what they have done in their life. Instead then could be going to community college and getting an education. I just see it as a waste when they could be doing something in their lives. So your brother is very lucky to have you. Even though he's taller than you I'm really sure you can kick his butt with the right moves.

BigTone

eMeS,

Do you want to adopt me? I come with some baggage, I have a wife and a dog....

But they practically take care of themselves!

Turgon

eMeS wrote:

dynamik wrote:

Any chance he can get a job at the school? That would probably provide better experience than working for Best Buy.

What degree is he planning on getting? Those CCNA and CCNP classes will probably not transfer to most other programs. This seems like a technical AA degree. If he's thinking about a BA/BS and or MA/MS, he should see if those will work for what he wants to do. If not, he should probably consider taking something else. I've seen many people waste a lot of time and money by not thinking ahead (I'm not saying you aren't, but it's definitely something you both should keep in mind).

CCNA labs are just Cisco routers and switches with various accessories (racks, cables, etc.). It's equipment that he needs (needs, right?) to have in order to study. Equipment for eight courses seems to be pretty important. I'm not really familiar with the program though, so I can't give you a definitive answer.

The path that I'm steering him to is a BS at a school that offers the Cisco classes. The technical courses will count as pure electives is my understanding at this point. He may very well exceed his need for elective hours if he pursues this path. The only courses that I've mapped out for him during the 1st two years that would not apply to any degree are the 4 CCNA courses.

I personally did waste a lot of time and money in my early years in college by not planning properly. I have something like 190 undergraduate hours, yet only 158 of them are applied to degrees.....fortunately most of the money was someone else's (tuition reimbursement), but the time I will never get back!

Your explanation makes sense to me, and it is largely the one I used with the person that I asked, but I still don't have a definitive answer. Part of the reason I don't have that answer yet is because financial services companies don't want to be held liable for providing incorrect information in such as situation. If I did incur a tax bill for something they told me I wouldn't, in all liklihood they would be have to make good on the bad information.

Thanks for the idea about working at the school. We hadn't considered that . I think his chances of getting that type of job in IT at the school will be increased after he's successfully completed a semester there.

Thanks for your reply,

MS

Good luck with all this. If you or your brother want advice on cisco by all means drop me a PM.

eMeS

BigTone wrote:

eMeS,

Do you want to adopt me? I come with some baggage, I have a wife and a dog....

But they practically take care of themselves!

Can you do tile work? see http://www.techexams.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=31627

Does your wife look at all like my avatar?

MS

cwilkey

Serious props to you for being such an involved brother. My brother is kind of in the same boat, and he can go wherever he decides to (money wise) and do whatever he wants (smarts wise). He's pretty good with tech stuff and I've been trying to encourage him to finish up his A+ and get a job in tech support at whichever school he goes to.

The only thing I would tell you to do with your brother is make sure he gets "the plan" and is comfortable with it. He may find something else he really loves in school. Also, he's still very young and I think we can all remember how confusing it can be to start functioning in the "real world." Managing time, setting priorities, keeping a schedule, etc.. I had no clue and no drive when I started college but once I realized it was time to make a decision or really fall off into a bad place, I stepped up. Each person has to do that for himself/herself regardless of the people who around to help them.

Keep on keepin' on!!!!

Sepiraph

I am wondering about your brother's personality, it would be a good idea to advise him or guide him through career advice based on that consideration. And then if IT is indeed the right industry for him, there are still many different paths within IT that he can consider.

Plantwiz

First, I've read your posts. Admirable and I can appreciate your desire to see him land on his feet....however, he is an adult. You shouldn't feel the need to be responsible for his success or failures.

eMeS wrote:

To everyone here: If you are a parent, or have children for which you are responsible, save early and often for college. You will pay for their education (or lack of it) in one way or another.

I completely disagree. Perhaps because I fall into that older crowd, but it drives me insane with the guilt trip society has so eloquently placed on parents today of 'paying' for their kids to go to college. WTF is up with people today? How many of us had to work and pay for college? I did. I wanted to go, so I worked and attended school. My parents weren't horrible people because I paid for my education....they were parents. Their job was to see that I got to age 18 as a functional member of society, period.

It's fine if parents 'can' and 'want' to help their kids pay for school....but there is no reason to. We've gone ahead and crippled these past two generations into thinking that they don't or shouldn't need to work while they are in college. Get real! If kids aren't working many of them are out getting drunk....a job won't hurt them one bit.

***

And just a tiny piece of opinion here.....let him find his own path for school or no school. Unless specifically asked for your opinion what to study....he'll need to find his own place. Many (including myself) have college degrees 'saved up' because we thought one career would be a good choice only to find out a few years into the career it just wasn't the right fit. A person can be completely happy and completely successful WITHOUT a piece of paper acknowledging they paid thousands of dollars for an 'education'.

There is nothing wrong with having a degree (or two, or three etc...), however, sometimes college is shoved down kids throats without them even knowing what they like, dislike in themselves and in life. Sometimes it pays to get a job for a couple years first, then go back to school more mature and ready to study. FWIW

eMeS

Thank you for your post. Although I am disappointed with many of your stances, I intend this communication as a respectful response.

Perhaps I miscommunicated my intention. I do not feel responsible for my brother's success or failure. I love my family and I choose to care about their success or failure.

I completely disagree. Perhaps because I fall into that older crowd, but it drives me insane with the guilt trip society has so eloquently placed on parents today of 'paying' for their kids to go to college.

That guilt trip is called taxes, a significant portion of which currently funds not only your children's overall education, it funds all children's overall education. I live in Texas, the largest portion of property taxes that in my city that are paid annually funds education. This includes both state mandated schooling K-12 and 2 year colleges in our area. Other state universities are funded differently, at least in Texas.

Although I currently have no children in the education system (my only child is now 11 weeks old), I have paid for many years and am happy to continue to pay for the education of other's children. Education is a common good. It's beneficial to everyone. For example, I don't personally need cruise missles, however, I am happy to pay for cruise missiles through federal taxes because it keeps other cruise missiles away from my home. I'm not fan of taxes, and government waste and misuse is another topic, but I am thankful we have roads, sewer systems, and aircraft carriers. I'm also thankful that we make an effort to educate our children, as at some point in life we will all depend on those younger than us to continue to make our respective nations great. You are paying for this through taxes.

As opposed to 'paying' in the phrase above, what I think you meant was 'saving for their kids to go to college'. I agree, people are bombarded with messages in the form of "do x or else y will happen to your child". Because I am a new father, I get this message all the time in many advertisements. It's called influencing by fear, and it is a commonly used sales technique (see Influence: Science and Practice by Cialdini). Corporations seeking a profit do this, not society. Society and individuals accept or reject this method of getting them to buy things. Ultimately, whatever technique is used to advertise a good, people have the choice to ignore or accept the message. You implied that I am picking my brother's path for him, when what I am actually doing is providing options. It is his choice to accept or reject anything from me or anyone else, just as it is your choice to ignore advertising.

With this in mind, the methods of saving for education in the US are both very flexible, and a very wise tax strategy. For example, earnings grow tax-deferred in a 529 plan.

For example, saving through a 529 plan can be used for any higher education expense. This means that if my brother chose to never go to college, I could use the money to pay for additional education for me or someone else in my family.

I am a poster child for higher education. I am educated and successful. One of the ways that I think my education benefitted me is that I understand enough to cut through advertising nonsense and find the real facts about something. Advertising only affects me if I let it; any implication otherwise seems like you're saying that there is some invisible force making decisions for us that we can't control. I wholeheartedly disagree.

WTF is up with people today? How many of us had to work and pay for college? I did. I wanted to go, so I worked and attended school. My parents weren't horrible people because I paid for my education....they were parents. Their job was to see that I got to age 18 as a functional member of society, period.

I worked and paid for college. I was fortunate in that my first IT job when I was 18 was with a company that had a tuition reimbursement program that I used to the extent allowed. The reason I did this was because my father would only fund my education if I studied engineering. He attempted to limit my choice. I responded by making a choice; study something that I didn't want to, or figure out a way to pay for what I wanted to study. No one is horrible here, he made a choice and so did I. He is an engineer and now I outearn him.

Parenting is a life-long job. It doesn't end the day your child turns 18. This doesn't mean that you coddle your child through their adult life. Again, everyone finds what right for them; what's right for me is to be close to my family and share success.

It's fine if parents 'can' and 'want' to help their kids pay for school....but there is no reason to. We've gone ahead and crippled these past two generations into thinking that they don't or shouldn't need to work while they are in college. Get real! If kids aren't working many of them are out getting drunk....a job won't hurt them one bit.

You get real. You're generalizing without any statistics to support what you're saying. I find your generalization insulting to 'these past two generations', even though I'm not sure that includes me (I am 37). Regarding your statement about people getting drunk in college, again you're generalizing, without any real supporting data. I could just as easily state that I know lots of people that only work that get drunk every day (and I do!). In my brother's specific case, I mentioned in my post that his intention is to work while going to school. I'm fairly certain that there will be some amount of drinking involved; I'm hopeful and confident that he will learn over time to control things like this in his life.

And just a tiny piece of opinion here.....let him find his own path for school or no school. Unless specifically asked for your opinion what to study....he'll need to find his own place. A person can be completely happy and completely successful WITHOUT a piece of paper acknowledging they paid thousands of dollars for an 'education'.

I have another opinion. Regardless of what I say or do, he will choose his own career path. What is wrong with learning from the mistakes of others (I've made many!)? We see questions every week on this board about education paths, certification, etc.. Many of us contribute opinions and experiences, but ultimately the receiver of the information has to decide if it is valuable to him and if he should use it. I can only offer my thoughts and my experience to my brother.

Also, the people that contribute on this board know a lot about things and have experiences that I don't. Isn't learning from others the value that a board like this one offers?

My opinion is that information increases in value the more it is shared.

Many (including myself) have college degrees 'saved up' because we thought one career would be a good choice only to find out a few years into the career it just wasn't the right fit.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'saved up'. Everything I am today is the result of everything that I've ever learned, experienced, and chosen. I have a few degrees, and I learned a lot of useful things to achieve them. A degree to me isn't like a chip that I can plug in when I need it. I've posted my thoughts about degrees in other threads...they open doors for people. If the door you want to walk through is the one with "earn more money over my lifetime" written on it, then statistics show that degrees are a good choice (see the 2000 US Census http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/earnings/call1usboth.htmlhttp://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/earnings/call1usboth.html ). However, earning a degree doesn't mean that you ever get to walk through that "earn more money over my lifetime door", anymore than does not having a degree exclude anyone from being successful and happy. Career and life aspirations are subject to change at any time. If earning a degree in one field limits someone, that limitation was their choice. The last time I checked, if someone is unhappy with their career they are free to change it.

I'm not a bigot towards earning degrees for the sake of earning degrees by any means. I have a strong opinion that the first two years of most undergraduate degrees mostly consist of the same courses. I have another strong opinion that often the 'value' of any degree can be affected by the reputation of the institution that issued it. I have advised others in the past to pursue degrees from the most name-recognized school known for excellence in your chosen field that you can find, get accepted to, and afford.

There is nothing wrong with having a degree (or two, or three etc...),

I take this as patronizing, although I realize you may not have intended it that way.

however, sometimes college is shoved down kids throats without them even knowing what they like, dislike in themselves and in life. Sometimes it pays to get a job for a couple years first, then go back to school more mature and ready to study.

Once again, I believe in rearing children that are smart enough to make choices. Being gentle doesn't mean being a doormat. When I was young my father, an engineer, tried to force engineering onto me. I knew I didn't want to be an engineer, but that I did want to earn a college education. My brother is smart enough to take in information, figure out what is right for him, and pick his own path. There are two things that I can do for him: 1) I can provide information in the form of knowledge, experience and planning; and 2) I can provide access to money so that limitation is removed and he can focus on achieving the goals he sets.

Although I will defend your right to these opinions, I am shocked that they are the opinions of a moderator on this board.

MS

Plantwiz

eMeS wrote:

That guilt trip is called taxes,

???
You missed what I wrote completely. First, I'm not even entering the tax debate because there are some taxes that are beneficial and some that have been around so long we just keep paying them without ever realizing if the program is still a worthy program or not. I'm not against them.

My comment is regarding that many parents, not myself, but many of my co-workers, neighbors, parents at our children's school are going into to debt to pay for their kids (and I should rephrase....young adult kids) education. These kids are at an age where they can work 40+ hour a week job and earn a good income. Particularly in households where there are younger kids residing...it is NOT the parents job to pay for college.

So how you mistrued this into your monolgue...>I'm not real certain??

I also very clear stated that IF parents chose to pay for their young adult children's education....that's completely their choice. However, many have forgotten that their sons and daughters can WORK to earn the money. Instead, these parents have chosen to work, run up credit cards, take out second mortages all in the name of sending their kid to college because society has made them feel like bad parents if they don't.

How do I know this? Because I counsel these parents struggling in these situations. Some are asking for help...others merely are foregoing their retirement. I've spoken with them. I've seen their numbers. I've heard their stories first hand. What other proof do you need?

****

I worked and paid for college.

Congratuations. Me too.

Parenting is a life-long job. It doesn't end the day your child turns 18.

True. But at the financial success of failure of the remaining family members or the parents retirment.... IT SHOULD END IF ..... and I am clearly stating IF the parents CANNOT afford to continue to pay for this kid. 18 year olds are very capable of working. They don't need to treat their parents like their own personal ATM.

It's fine if parents 'can' and 'want' to help their kids pay for school....but there is no reason to. We've gone ahead and crippled these past two generations into thinking that they don't or shouldn't need to work while they are in college. Get real! If kids aren't working many of them are out getting drunk....a job won't hurt them one bit.

You get real. You're generalizing without any statistics to support what you're saying. I find your generalization insulting to 'these past two generations', even though I'm not sure that includes me (I am 37).

Again, I"m working with people struggling with this right now and over the past several years. Out of all the kids who go to college....indeed some pass through sober. HOWEVER, I know of people with $100K+ of debt just to 'help' Johnny go to school and now Johnny is in his 6th year of college.

Also, the people that contribute on this board know a lot about things and have experiences that I don't. Isn't learning from others the value that a board like this one offers?

Well, I thought so. Otherwise I wouldn't have offered another perspective for you. If it doesn't apply. Ignore it. However, it's pretty gut-wrenching to watch and mentor 40-50+ year old adults who have zero savings, debt that in piling up at an unbelievable rate and they still feel the need to provide 'extras' for their kids.

If you have this grand plan under way to help your brother that is wonderful. I was offering insight on not guilting yourself into payinf for something it didn't sound from your post you could afford. If you can, go for it. You have stated you have a young family, if you have a plan in place to help both your spouse and child have a happy life and your brother....go with it. I didn't post to not do that....only cautioned to ensure yourself was taken care of first.

Sorry you feel offended by my comments. I was only trying to offer help and another perspective.

(and yes 529s are a great way to invest TAX FEE for higher education....again, this wasn't the discussion....when people have huge debt over their heads, the last thing they can do is take money and invest it before their debts are paid. ROTH IRAs are wonderful for retirment too, again another TAX FREE way to grow money). If you are in a position to help...then do it, and I didn't state contrary to that.

sthomas

eMeS wrote:

My younger brother is graduating high school in about a month. He doesn't really know what he wants to do. He plans to go to college, but in my opinion doesn't have a good gameplan down about what he will study, etc..

He also wants to get a job. Once again, he doesn't have a good idea of what he can or wants to do here. As I read commonly on this board, it's difficult to bust into IT...much more difficult than it was for me around 20 years ago.

I think it is great that you are helping your bro out as long has he appreciates it. However I do have one question for you. Are you sure he even wants to work in IT? Just curious.....

eMeS

sthomas wrote:

eMeS wrote:

My younger brother is graduating high school in about a month. He doesn't really know what he wants to do. He plans to go to college, but in my opinion doesn't have a good gameplan down about what he will study, etc..

He also wants to get a job. Once again, he doesn't have a good idea of what he can or wants to do here. As I read commonly on this board, it's difficult to bust into IT...much more difficult than it was for me around 20 years ago.

I think it is great that you are helping your bro out as long has he appreciates it. However I do have one question for you. Are you sure he even wants to work in IT? Just curious.....

He has indicated a strong interest in IT. He's asked me alot about how communications between systems occurs, which although not my specialty, has been something I've been exposed to quite a bit of in financial services. I think his interest in this area is ultimately driven by his enjoyment of online gaming...

The only other field that he has shown an interest in is criminology, but that was more of a passing interest a few years ago.

MS

hetty

eMeS wrote:

The only other field that he has shown an interest in is criminology, but that was more of a passing interest a few years ago.

Here is an idea, the Encase certification. A mixture of both worlds.