Anyone a 'Programmer'?

I've periodically done random programming work throughout my career. My background (at least initially) was in IT Operations, and any programming work tended to grow out of operational needs that couldn't be easily met by vendors.

In my mind, "programming" is different from large-scale development. As far as large scale development work, I did a bit of that at one point in my career, but from a standpoint of interfacing between operations and development departments in a large IT organization.

I can say one thing that I noticed that is hard to make work. When I was doing this, the operational focus was on doing things faster and servicing business needs quickly, whereas the development focus was on slowing things down and following a deliberate process with many steps, templates, etc.. It definitely made things interesting and challenging to be in the middle of those two areas in a large organization.

As far as technical skills are concerned, from my standpoint it always grew out of a combination of what was available and what was needed. I did a lot of mainframe work (primarily automation) in my past, so I've worked to some extent with all of the languages in that environment. At one point, we needed a monitoring system that we couldn't buy, so the decision was made (around 1998 ) to do small-scale development in Java (that was back in Java 1 days) that was linked to a mainframe component built using assembler and REXX.

If you are interested in doing this, I would probably approach it from two standpoints. First, consider what skills are still in-demand, but unpopular with people graduating from college. Anything mainframe-related will come up in this area. The second thing I would consider is whether you want to do systems or applications programming.

From a systems standpoint, you might consider assembler, and there is always a need for people that know and understand REXX, a general purpose utility language that can be compiled, but is usually interpreted and is ubiquitous in the mainframe world. JCL is also useful to know here

From an applications standpoint, as you mentioned COBOL-85, but you might also look at CICS programming, and JCL knowledge (which is not really 'programming' from a development standpoint) is always in demand.

If the mainframe world doesn't interest you, you can always look to Java or any of the myriad other development languages out there. Additionally, I have a good friend that works with a tool that is now owned by HP called "Project and Portfolio Management". It's more of a visual workflow development tool, but skills in it are very very rare. I don't know how to tell you to get experience with that tool other than to get a job that requires it....

MS

BeaverC32

I do very little C programming now, but my first job in IT was a .Net Developer. I got this as an internship my Junior year in college, and I had zero .Net (C#) programming experience prior to that. I also picked up some ColdFusion during those 3 months.

My only programming knowledge prior to that was from the classes I took in school. Not sure of what your situation is (if you are in school or not) but I found that internship to be the single most important thing that helped get interviews and eventually land a job out of college.

liven

Well I was once a developer (now a network engineer)... I must say I did rather enjoy coding and development.

For me the best thing that came out of school (college) was learning C. I also self taught my self PHP and Perl. I use the later two much more than C, however they are all good to know.

Even when I had jobs that didn't require the ability to script or code, I have found having some skills to do so VERY valuable.

I suggest trying some high and low level languages to see what you prefer. Once you get an idea of that, try to become as proficient with a language as you possibly can. From there other languages should be easier to learn.

jmanrta

I did a little bit of PHP/mysql development at my previous job.

eMeS wrote: »

I've periodically done random programming work throughout my career. My background (at least initially) was in IT Operations, and any programming work tended to grow out of operational needs that couldn't be easily met by vendors.

In my mind, "programming" is different from large-scale development. As far as large scale development work, I did a bit of that at one point in my career, but from a standpoint of interfacing between operations and development departments in a large IT organization.

I can say one thing that I noticed that is hard to make work. When I was doing this, the operational focus was on doing things faster and servicing business needs quickly, whereas the development focus was on slowing things down and following a deliberate process with many steps, templates, etc.. It definitely made things interesting and challenging to be in the middle of those two areas in a large organization.

As far as technical skills are concerned, from my standpoint it always grew out of a combination of what was available and what was needed. I did a lot of mainframe work (primarily automation) in my past, so I've worked to some extent with all of the languages in that environment. At one point, we needed a monitoring system that we couldn't buy, so the decision was made (around 1998 ) to do small-scale development in Java (that was back in Java 1 days) that was linked to a mainframe component built using assembler and REXX.

If you are interested in doing this, I would probably approach it from two standpoints. First, consider what skills are still in-demand, but unpopular with people graduating from college. Anything mainframe-related will come up in this area. The second thing I would consider is whether you want to do systems or applications programming.

From a systems standpoint, you might consider assembler, and there is always a need for people that know and understand REXX, a general purpose utility language that can be compiled, but is usually interpreted and is ubiquitous in the mainframe world. JCL is also useful to know here

From an applications standpoint, as you mentioned COBOL-85, but you might also look at CICS programming, and JCL knowledge (which is not really 'programming' from a development standpoint) is always in demand.

If the mainframe world doesn't interest you, you can always look to Java or any of the myriad other development languages out there. Additionally, I have a good friend that works with a tool that is now owned by HP called "Project and Portfolio Management". It's more of a visual workflow development tool, but skills in it are very very rare. I don't know how to tell you to get experience with that tool other than to get a job that requires it....

MS

Thanks for this response!

I see you mentioned COBOL-85, CICS, JCL and I even have read about SAS before. All of these interest me but finding learning material seems to be the issue with anything Mainframe... Everything in the stores and online is Java, PHP, C++ etc. but I enjoy the business end. Like the analyst type programming. (Probably since you bascially need a lab or something to even code mainframe, they don't really use compliers??)

I also self taught my self PHP and Perl

Perl is an extremely hard language to pick up on your own, you must be pretty freakin' smart.

I suggest trying some high and low level languages to see what you prefer. Once you get an idea of that, try to become as proficient with a language as you possibly can. From there other languages should be easier to learn.

I agree with this, I know Java pretty well and looked at some C# stuff and picked up on it really quick.

I bascially want to jump into programming in 2 years and was hoping the qualifcations of: A+, Network+, SCJP, A.A. and B.S. in Information Techonlogy and 3 years IT experience. Would be enough.

darkerosxx

Good luck in your career choice. I like programming, too, but the outsourcing trend of programmers deterred me from going that route. You can make it, just be sure to keep yourself relevant to the job market you want to be in.

darkerosxx wrote: »

Good luck in your career choice. I like programming, too, but the outsourcing trend of programmers deterred me from going that route. You can make it, just be sure to keep yourself relevant to the job market you want to be in.

I don't know what this has to do with my original question.

But please link me to documentation or news reports talking about the effects of outsourcing programming (like what languages are they outsourceing and what do the jobs/role do for the companies)

Because I highly doubt any company is outsourcing Mainframe programming since that deals with personal/buisness information.

You may have issues with the mainframe or financial worlds. Most of them are in fairly obscure languages for current graduates and you just won't be able to get the necessary experience. They tend to insist that you have relevant experience for several years and have had prior jobs in that field.

I've done development work on a core banking system before and it was mostly by accident that I came to be doing it. I was actually employed as the administrator of the UNIX platform the new system would run on. During the migration there was a large amount of development work that needed to be done and I ended up doing a lot of it.

jryantech wrote: »

Because I highly doubt any company is outsourcing Mainframe programming since that deals with personal/buisness information.

They do. Exporting the actual data is hard but nothing to say that they can't do the programming elsewhere with test data.

Quite a few of the major banking systems have a development center in India. The local offices do customisation and support only. All major work is done in India.

tiersten wrote: »

You may have issues with the mainframe or financial worlds. Most of them are in fairly obscure languages for current graduates and you just won't be able to get the necessary experience. They tend to insist that you have relevant experience for several years and have had prior jobs in that field.

I've done development work on a core banking system before and it was mostly by accident that I came to be doing it. I was actually employed as the administrator of the UNIX platform the new system would run on. During the migration there was a large amount of development work that needed to be done and I ended up doing a lot of it.

I've actually heard mainframe/financial programming is a breeze compared to Java/C#.Net, it is a lot of referencing.

They do. Exporting the actual data is hard but nothing to say that they can't do the programming elsewhere with test data.

Quite a few of the major banking systems have a development center in India. The local offices do customisation and support only. All major work is done in India.

There are many government companies that can't ship information overseas and many other companies in the same boat.

But as I said I would like some links, news stories about programming be outsourced. So I can understand what the people in India are actually doing. You can say "Programming is outsourced" that is great. But I would like to know what parts are being outsourced in the job role.

jryantech wrote: »

I've actually heard mainframe/financial programming is a breeze compared to Java/C#.Net, it is a lot of referencing.

It depends on what you're doing. A large proportion of financial programming is implementing financial algorithms. A good understanding of that is very important.

jryantech wrote: »

There are many government companies that can't ship information overseas and many other companies in the same boat.

That is the same for most financial institutions world wide. There are restrictions on data but not the code itself. Processing transactions with real data or made up test data is the same.

jryantech wrote: »

But as I said I would like some links, news stories about programming be outsourced. So I can understand what the people in India are actually doing. You can say "Programming is outsourced" that is great. But I would like to know what parts are being outsourced in the job role.

Nearly everything can be outsourced. Design, implementation, testing and even installation. There are plenty of articles and news stories about it if you search for them.

The banking system we installed was maintained and developed in India. The original developers were in Europe but they found it was significantly cheaper to move development to India. They flew a team over for several months to work out design and changes in cooperation with the local staff. Once that phase was completed, they all went back and started customisation/development work. When that was completed, they all came back again for implementation and testing.

The only time they had our customer data was when they were onsite. They were prohibited from taking it out of the premises by contract and NDA.

jryantech wrote: »

Thanks for this response!

I see you mentioned COBOL-85, CICS, JCL and I even have read about SAS before. All of these interest me but finding learning material seems to be the issue with anything Mainframe... Everything in the stores and online is Java, PHP, C++ etc. but I enjoy the business end. Like the analyst type programming. (Probably since you bascially need a lab or something to even code mainframe, they don't really use compliers??)

I'm not a big COBOL person, but there are many books you can get on this. I took at class in COBOL in college, way back in 1989. I'm not sure, but I'll bet many university programs still teach it. The same with CICS, as well as JCL.

There are also quite a few books for REXX and Assembler. Again, REXX is a good thing to know because it's one of those general purpose tools that is used heavily in the mainframe world. An Amazon search should get you what you need.

I'm not at all experienced with SAS, but I know there is quite a bit of training and books available.

You might also consider looking at any available IBM Redbooks for topics that interest you.

Regarding compilers...the answer is yes, they do compile code on mainframes. There are compilers available for most, if not all, available programming languages...anything from Fortran up to Java, etc.... Usually these things have to be licensed...

If you are interested in setting up a lab to develop skills in managing or writing code that runs on mainframes, check out Hercules at The Hercules System/370, ESA/390, and z/Architecture Emulator . I run a mainframe image in my home on an old pc using Hercules.

MS

tiersten wrote: »

It depends on what you're doing. A large proportion of financial programming is implementing financial algorithms. A good understanding of that is very important.

A major part is also documentation, design and testing with excessive paperwork. You need to make sure you don't roll out anything with a bug or mistake in it as it can have significant monetary or regulatory issues.

The hot databases are Oracle, Microsoft SQL Server, and MySQL. MySQL is free, Oracle costs lots of money to learn, and SQL Server Express is free and good enough to learn on.

If you choose .NET netwokring over Java, stick with .NET 3.5 (and later), ASP.NET, Web services, WCF. Also learn SQL Server for backend, or AJAX and Silverlight for the front end. With three years of experience working on professional projects, you should be able to pull in around $100K/year. Also, most .NET jobs are Windows-only, so no worrying about porting your code to UNIX/Linux/OS X.

Learn OS/400 (yes yes. old name blah) and RPG if you want to exploit a lucrative market. Plenty of systems out there. They really do run for years and are nearly bulletproof.

tiersten wrote: »

Nearly everything can be outsourced. Design, implementation, testing and even installation. There are plenty of articles and news stories about it if you search for them.

Outsourcing is the "What-if" of IT.

Outsourcing doesn't save companies money right when they do it, that is why many companies have not outsourced certain things.

This thread is about how you got your first programming job and what qualifcations you had. Not whether you lost your job due to outsourcing.

If your good at what you do and have confidence in yourself outsourcing isn't even in your vocabulary as far as I am concerned. If your not good at what you do and have no confidence in yourself then stick with Hardware.

jryantech wrote: »

I've actually heard mainframe/financial programming is a breeze compared to Java/C#.Net, it is a lot of referencing.

I would say this is not the case. Mainframe programming by definition works with limited resources in a very controlled and stable environment. There's not as much opportunity to screw up and not cause problems for everyone in a mainframe environment, so a different level of precision and care is needed that someone that has never worked in a mainframe environment will not understand. In a mainframe environment an acceptable answer is never "just reboot" (actually "IPL")....all problems are typically pursued to root cause.

As far as the actual programming structures, flows, etc... it's roughly the same. IMO JCL, CICS, Assembler are all very crytpic compared to modern programming languages, and because of this it takes a while for someone to really get up to speed and productive. REXX looks more like a scripting language, and thus is easier to learn...

MS

eMeS wrote: »

I'm not a big COBOL person, but there are many books you can get on this. I took at class in COBOL in college, way back in 1989. I'm not sure, but I'll bet many university programs still teach it. The same with CICS, as well as JCL.

There are also quite a few books for REXX and Assembler. Again, REXX is a good thing to know because it's one of those general purpose tools that is used heavily in the mainframe world. An Amazon search should get you what you need.

I'm not at all experienced with SAS, but I know there is quite a bit of training and books available.

You might also consider looking at any available IBM Redbooks for topics that interest you.

Regarding compilers...the answer is yes, they do compile code on mainframes. There are compilers available for most, if not all, available programming languages...anything from Fortran up to Java, etc.... Usually these things have to be licensed...

If you are interested in setting up a lab to develop skills in managing or writing code that runs on mainframes, check out Hercules at The Hercules System/370, ESA/390, and z/Architecture Emulator . I run a mainframe image in my home on an old pc using Hercules.

MS

Thanks for this information man!

tiersten wrote: »

Learn OS/400 (yes yes. old name blah) and RPG if you want to exploit a lucrative market. Plenty of systems out there. They really do run for years and are nearly bulletproof.

Yeah I heard RPG programming has some jobs out there that companies are having a hard time filling. But that stuff is OLLLLLDDDD

eMeS wrote: »

I would say this is not the case. Mainframe programming by definition works with limited resources in a very controlled and stable environment. There's not as much opportunity to screw up and not cause problems for everyone in a mainframe environment, so a different level of precision and care is needed that someone that has never worked in a mainframe environment will not understand. In a mainframe environment an acceptable answer is never "just reboot" (actually "IPL")....all problems are typically pursued to root cause.

As far as the actual programming structures, flows, etc... it's roughly the same. IMO JCL, CICS, Assembler are all very crytpic compared to modern programming languages, and because of this it takes a while for someone to really get up to speed and productive. REXX looks more like a scripting language, and thus is easier to learn...

MS

I will definitly look into REXX, are there certifications for any Mainframe type programming languages? (I know SAS has one).

Like I said though I've heard mainframe is easier day-in-day-out programming then Java, C++, etc all the big languages. I am not dismissing your view, since I have no experience what-so ever.

jryantech wrote: »

Outsourcing doesn't save companies money right when they do it, that is why many companies have not outsourced certain things.

This thread is about how you got your first programming job and what qualifcations you had. Not whether you lost your job due to outsourcing.

If your good at what you do and have confidence in yourself outsourcing isn't even in your vocabulary as far as I am concerned. If your not good at what you do and have no confidence in yourself then stick with Hardware.

You asked what can be outsourced and I explained. Whether it saves money or not is a moot point since companies still do it without considering the results. In the IT field you are at the highest risk of being affected by outsourcing. Most other jobs just can't be done remotely but most IT related jobs can be. Nearly always it isn't your choice whether your role is going to be outsourced or not. I know several very talented people that were doing very well in their job but somebody higher up decided to try and cost cut by outsourcing.

I did explain how I ended up doing development. I didn't lose my job due to outsourcing either as I am still employed at the same job. I have a BSc and MSc both in the IT field and I have had prior experience in development in my own time and small projects as jobs. The core banking system development however was the largest project overall.

jryantech wrote: »

Yeah I heard RPG programming has some jobs out there that companies are having a hard time filling. But that stuff is OLLLLLDDDD

Thats why it usually pays the big bucks. Nobody learns it at university or college. Most of the RPG programmers have moved onto to other things. Our main RPG guy is actually 65 and the contractor we use for a lot of RPG projects is over 50. They're both considering retiring or moving to a less busy job soon.

tiersten wrote: »

Most of the RPG programmers have moved onto to other things. Our main RPG guy is actually 65 and the contractor we use for a lot of RPG projects is over 50.

RPG programmers are going the way of watchmakers and accordion repairmen. COBOL, surprisingly, is surviving quite nicely. And it's a lot easier than C/C++/C#/Java. Heck, there's even a COBOL for .NET.

JDMurray wrote: »

Heck, there's even a COBOL for .NET.

COBOL.NET just sounds wrong...

tiersten wrote: »

COBOL.NET just sounds wrong...

I still remember cringing when I first heard the term "Visual BASIC" back in 1991. It sounded like an oxymoron. But by 1995 I was hooked on using it.

amp2030

JDMurray wrote: »

I still remember cringing when I first heard the term "Visual BASIC" back in 1991. It sounded like an oxymoron. But by 1995 I was hooked on using it.

I always wanted to see "Visual Assembler"...

jryantech wrote: »

I will definitly look into REXX, are there certifications for any Mainframe type programming languages? (I know SAS has one).

Like I said though I've heard mainframe is easier day-in-day-out programming then Java, C++, etc all the big languages. I am not dismissing your view, since I have no experience what-so ever.

IBM has some certifications, but it's mostly geared towards their product line. I've seen almost no one with any certifications in this area (I hold a couple of the IBM SOA and WebSphere certifications, nothing specific to programming). The one exception that I can think of is the random person here or there that has one of the IBM DB2 certifications.

REXX alone wouldn't be enough to get you a job, but if you were doing any mainframe work you would likely need to know it. When I did mainframe automation it was (and still is) mainly driven by a combination of REXX, SQL, and Assembler. Mainframes are one of those areas where you have to know a little about everything to thrive.

MS

darkerosxx

jryantech wrote: »

I don't know what this has to do with my original question.

But please link me to documentation or news reports talking about the effects of outsourcing programming (like what languages are they outsourceing and what do the jobs/role do for the companies)

Because I highly doubt any company is outsourcing Mainframe programming since that deals with personal/buisness information.

I hope your attitude isn't included in your package you'll be using to ensure employers resist the urge to outsource your position. I can guarantee, if it is, you'll be gone. I'm not going to argue with you...I was merely offering a POV. You have a horrible attitude and it's shown numerous times on these boards. I'll just stop responding to your threads. I'm at least glad you stopped posting your homework questions for us to answer.

amp2030 wrote: »

I always wanted to see "Visual Assembler"...

Hey, just you wait. I've always wanted to write an assembler with a GUI that displayed what was was happening on the stack, heap, registers, etc. as it stepped through the code. I think that'd be a cool tool to visually teach people how to write in assembler.