Question for the uber-geeks who have always loved computers.

fleck · September 2009

sidsanders wrote: »

you are going to have some comptia certs soon so that will help. dont give up the quest, and it seems you are not. are there any part time gigs you can get where folks can see your skills and give you other chances?

I'm definitely going to make it my full time job to educate myself and try to make my way into some sort of computer-related work. There is a non-paid internship available at the school that I'm debating on, but I seriously need to start making money. I could always use that internship to list as my current 'job' which would make the resume look better. Got a lot of things to consider.

JDMurray · September 2009

fleck wrote: »

Right, I have the understanding that certification is taking over as the main method of education for professionals in the field today.

Well, certs have been gaining in popularity with employers over the past ten years, but the main methods of education--and recognition--is still a college degree and experience, with certs being a distance third place. Only a few highly recognized and respected certs (e.g., CISSP, CISA/CISM, CCIE) can actually attempt to compete with degrees in their respective fields.

rwwest7 · September 2009

fleck wrote: »

I'm hoping that I run into an employer/manager that sees that quality in me and picks me because I am a true blooded geek by nature. I have always known things that the certified guys don't. Unfortunately it's a cold world out there and the only way to get an interview is to e-mail a resume, and it has never once worked for me after the big tech crash of 2001. Both of the IT jobs I had from 2000-2002 were because I knew an insider who put in a good word for me.

The problem with "true geeks" is that they usually lack this thing called people skills and they usually walk around acting like they are so much smarter than everyone else.

rwwest7 · September 2009

Certifications show that you are always learning. If you earned a BS in Computer Science 10 years ago guess what, everything you learned is pretty much obsolete. There's a reason a Cisco cert expires after 3 years. You should always be going for some sort of cert. If you work in this industy for 8 years without earning a single new cert than you're either really old and about to retire or you're just sitting on your loins and being lazy.

skrpune · September 2009

sidsanders wrote: »

i wouldnt agree certs are replacing degrees (as/bs)...
all the job postings i see almost always show degree required with certs sometimes required. they will take exp and a degree over less exp and certs, in my area. certain jobs (mostly cisco) will ask for exp + higher level cisco certs. exchange admin jobs will ask for degree + multiple yrs of exchange + mgmt of a certain # of mailboxes. unix jobs would ask for exp + degree. quick examples i have seen recently.

agreed - I often see ads asking for degree or equivalent experience AND certifications. The qualifications needed will vary by the company and the type of position you're going after, but I definitely don't think that certs are replacing degrees. However, they are a great way to keep your knowledge current.

sidsanders · September 2009

rwwest7 wrote: »

Certifications show that you are always learning. If you earned a BS in Computer Science 10 years ago guess what, everything you learned is pretty much obsolete. There's a reason a Cisco cert expires after 3 years. You should always be going for some sort of cert. If you work in this industy for 8 years without earning a single new cert than you're either really old and about to retire or you're just sitting on your loins and being lazy.

i would say computer information systems degrees have seen more obsolete aspects than comp sci as cis was tied more to programming langs/databases/current tech (at the time folks took it) which have seen many changes. comp sci is more theory/math and isnt dependent on any set programming lang. algorithm analysis is a good example of that as are many of the theory and logic concentrations. i would say some of this is dependent where you got a degree as well... there are places that had some not so hot comp sci programs for sure. you may have a comp sci degree, i dont know, so no insult intended.

having seen older folks with and with out certs, i think the last part is a bit harsh. not everyone has the time to work on certs. i have been lucky to be able to continue, though not everyone is in that boat. i will say some folks, old and young, dont care about certs either. they are still able to find work based on the expr they have, which in some ways is a bit annoying.

Plantwiz · September 2009

fleck wrote: »

I hate school and don't want to put effort into subjects that are useless to my career.

Well,

Then you need to go into business for yourself.

TO HATE school as you put it, will be limiting for you career advancements. Certainly, you've thought about this already?

In any case, you can be an entrepreneur and if you are as good as you say, you'll be fine. You may be eliminated as a contractor on some projects that require you to show your degrees before you bid (we've run into this twice now), but you can certainly do well taking the smaller jobs or jobs that do not question your background.

Otherwise,
skrpune comments are spot on!

fleck · September 2009

rwwest7 wrote: »

The problem with "true geeks" is that they usually lack this thing called people skills and they usually walk around acting like they are so much smarter than everyone else.

What you have described here is a 'nerd'. Or better put, an 'elitist', like the comic book guy from The Simpsons. This I am not.

fleck · September 2009

Plantwiz wrote: »

Well,

Then you need to go into business for yourself.

TO HATE school as you put it, will be limiting for you career advancements. Certainly, you've thought about this already?

In any case, you can be an entrepreneur and if you are as good as you say, you'll be fine. You may be eliminated as a contractor on some projects that require you to show your degrees before you bid (we've run into this twice now), but you can certainly do well taking the smaller jobs or jobs that do not question your background.

Otherwise,
skrpune comments are spot on!

I hate NORMAL schools. Community colleges filled with cheerleaders and dumb little dipshiis and script kiddies. That's what I hate. I know that the tech school I'm going to is my kind of place, otherwise I wouldn't be going.

Turgon · September 2009

fleck wrote: »

I hate NORMAL schools. Community colleges filled with cheerleaders and dumb little dipshiis and script kiddies. That's what I hate. I know that the tech school I'm going to is my kind of place, otherwise I wouldn't be going.

That's a pretty dim view of the quality of students in Community colleges isn't it?

skrpune · September 2009

Turgon wrote: »

That's a pretty dim view of the quality of students in Community colleges isn't it?

Yeah, I agree. My first reaction to that post was "OUCH!" But then I thought about it, and my next reaction was to feel bad for fleck that this is how he/she feels.

Honestly fleck, this is not a great attitude. I know of plenty of intelligent folks who attend community colleges, many of whom go on to universities to get their bachelors and beyond. To pigeon hole everyone who goes to communities colleges like that is immature and myopic. You're going to have to learn how to deal with people to succeed in life, and with an attitude like that, a lot of doors will get shut in your face even if you have a killer resume and your diploma and the certs you're planning on - even the most talented people get turned down for jobs if they have such a bad attitude towards other people. I don't mean to be harsh, but it's better you hear this here and have a chance to think on it before you go showing this attitude on an interview or on the job and feeling much harsher repercussions.

kimanyd · September 2009

To be fair, I'm four times as likely to hook up with a girl from a community college than a "real/normal" college. Their standards clearly aren't up to par...

In all seriousness, most people just hit community colleges to get the first two years of a four-year degree at a discount, or they're just testing the waters of formal education. Stereotypes are great for jokes, but you do appear to be small-minded if you abide by them.

As I said earlier, you should research how much value those diploma programs actually have. I wouldn't consider someone with one of those to be at the same level of someone with only an associates, so you really need to determine what those are ultimately going to do for you. If you're just going for the knowledge, by all means, go for it. I just don't think that whatever diploma you obtain is going to be the key to an awesome new career.

Has anyone else had good luck with diplomas? Maybe my perspective is just skewed...

And Skrpune, coming from you, harsher repercussions just sounds hot. You've actually done the opposite of dissuading me...

msteinhilber · September 2009

fleck wrote: »

I hate school and don't want to put effort into subjects that are useless to my career.

Just out of curiosity, what subjects are useless to your career?

Written communication skills?
Verbal communication skills?
Critical Thinking?
Team Building?
Strategic Management?
Statistics?

I could go on for quite a while, but if you really believe these and other subjects are useless that one would take some of for say an associates degree and more of for a bachelors degree then you could really benefit from expanding your mindset a bit.

These classes are important, they help hone your soft skills that a lot of people in IT really lack. Business related courses are also incredibly helpful as you will be less likely to bicker and complain when management above you makes decisions you don't agree with - they help enable you to see the macro view rather than just how something affects you.

I'm not saying you have to take the classes, but I wouldn't completely dismiss the content covered in those classes as it is valuable to your career and if you can work on advancing your skills in the non-technical aspects you would only stand to gain.

One thing I find ironic though is you state how you hope to be picked out of the group because you are a true blooded geek by nature. There is a response from another forum member stating those people are usually lacking people skills and walk around acting like they are smarter than everyone else. I can't help but get a hint of this attitude from you (just stating my observations here), and the hint turns into a blinding flash of the obvious (thanks Coach Culbertson!) when you state that's not you but go on to stereotype and bash (quite harshly) people who attend community colleges as if you are better than they are.

At any rate, I would honestly not invest any money into a diploma. It's not going to get you any recognition in my opinion. In fact, here is how I would treat it if you managed to get in for an interview with me.

Me: "I see you have a diploma in Management Information Systems, is there any reason you decided to not pursue an associates degree or bachelors degree?"

You: "x" where x = just about any response you can come up with probably won't sound good unless you already had an existing degree which provided your general education credits and your diploma was just to learn the technical side of things.

fleck · September 2009

Well mstein, thanks for insulting me, first and foremost. You're a shining example of acceptable behavior. I find it funny the way you act as narcissistic as possible while talking about who 'goes around thinking they're better than everyone else'. But since you spent a lot of money on your education, you must be. You're exactly the type of person I would never want to associate with, much less work for, so we don't have a problem there. Have a nice day.

msteinhilber · September 2009

fleck wrote: »

Well mstein, thanks for insulting me, first and foremost. You're a shining example of acceptable behavior. I find it funny the way you act as narcissistic as possible while talking about who 'goes around thinking they're better than everyone else'. But since you spent a lot of money on your education, you must be. You're exactly the type of person I would never want to associate with, much less work for, so we don't have a problem there. Have a nice day.

Wasn't meant as an insult, just my observations.

I never claim to be better than everyone, or anybody. Ignore the paragraph with the comments about your view of those that attend community colleges and re-read my post. I am actually genuinely trying to be helpful, because you sound like a smart person but the path you propose to take I think is going to hold you back.

I really do question the value of a diploma versus a degree, and if a degree is an absolute definite no for reasons you have already stated then I would quite honestly forgo the diploma and strictly focus on certifications on your own study time.

I checked out the place you are attending, to be honest it seems to be on my first look to be one of those "get yourself a very lucrative IT career" training centers. From what I see they claim you can complete your education in less than one year. In that year you are going to earn your A+, Network+, Security+, MCSA, MCSE, and CCENT? Sounds exactly like a "fast path to a lucrative IT job" training facility to me, those pop up all over the country and promise the world but you are rushed through things so fast I question how well the information is retained. I also question the study materials at places like that and would advise looking into them. I know through associates in my area that one such facility near here that operates with a similar business model utilizes brain ****. On top of that, and this is just my nitpicking - but I would expect any place that I do business with, at least of the amount of money you are probably investing, to have a decent professional looking website and not something that looks to be thrown together over a weekend: FastTrain Technical Certification Computer Training Courses

fleck · September 2009

Well, the school is actually decent once you make contact. They've been in the state of Florida for years now and have several locations. I did look into the school and they have had their problems in the past, especially with a specific campus that had bad equipment and people who apparently didn't care. Things are a lot different now and the school has good relations with local companies.

I did notice that the web site was atrocious, but I visited the sites of a few local Certification training companies and I was reminded that educational institutions are famous for their simple and unpleasant looking web pages. Their catalog and other documentation are sophisticated and professional. Maybe if I take on the internship there I will see if they're working on a revamp of the site and offer a hand in it.

The curriculum is a bit better than you would think. It's way better than a $6,000 1-week boot-camp training for a single cert, and people do that all the time. Here we go through several weeks of class, and there are several classes before you're expected to be ready for a certification test. There are 17 classes for 68 credits total; a hefty 918 contact hours over the next year, and I'm ready to meet the challenge. It was mentioned to me that some students do tend to require longer than a year. I don't plan on being one of those students.

I'm confident that with this school's skilled and caring staff, adequate equipment and local corporate connections it will be possible for me to begin a career.

networker050184 · September 2009

I'm going to have to agree with msteinhilber on that school. I'd avoid it like the plague. Even the name sounds suspect to me.

fleck · September 2009

networker050184 wrote: »

I'm going to have to agree with msteinhilber on that school. I'd avoid it like the plague. Even the name sounds suspect to me.

Well just read my post man. The school might not look or sound like much but when you go in it's for real. They have clout in the area.

Bl8ckr0uter · September 2009

Isn't that quite a bit of certifications to obtain in a year?

fleck · September 2009

knwminus wrote: »

Isn't that quite a bit of certifications to obtain in a year?

It sure is quite a bit of certifications to train for. I don't know if I'll be taking all the cert tests that quickly, but I'll definitely take Network+ and A+ as soon as I can.

skrpune · September 2009

knwminus wrote: »

Isn't that quite a bit of certifications to obtain in a year?

That was my thought. It sounds like it's going to be a pretty intensive program.

With 17 courses in a year, that's about 3 weeks each. Yowza! I've been contacted by companies for similar programs, and to me, it just seems like too much in too short a time. You might get adequate preparation to pass the exams, but not so sure you can really learn the materials to apply them on the job. And getting that many certs on such a fast timescale without job experience to back it up may result in being seen as a paper tiger.

All these certs are attainable on a self-study path. From dealings with other similar programs, I'd venture to say that this program is charging anywhere from $10K - $15K or more, and great googly moogly, that's a lot of money. To each his/her own, but I've chosen the slow & steady path of getting my certs on my own at a pace that's more natural and that ties in better with where I am on my career path. It's a much smaller monetary investment which is spread out over a longer time period (and hence is much less painful to the ol' bank account) and I find that it helps me to retain the info better when going at a bit of a slower pace.

If you do go for this program and get those certs, my advice would be to NOT mention the training program's name on any resume and to just list your certs. These programs are often seen as negatives and as diploma mills and it may give folks the wrong first impression about you. There are multiple complaint sites that mention FastTraining and a quick googling would yield some results that would make me question the legitimacy of the training. They also have multiple (at least 16) registered complaints with the BBB.

Bl8ckr0uter · September 2009

fleck wrote: »

It sure is quite a bit of certifications to train for. I don't know if I'll be taking all the cert tests that quickly, but I'll definitely take Network+ and A+ as soon as I can.

The reason why I said that is because not only is that alot of test, there is a lot of very different types of information involved with all of those test. Retaining all of that info would be difficult. Also if an employer saw that you just "magically" ( no offense) obtained a laundry list of certs, it may hurt you.

fleck · September 2009

I already mentioned knowledge of their PAST problems with a SPECIFIC campus. I did not find any of those BBB reports, and I just cam back from the BBB site, where my campus has an A- rating. As I stated before, this school has clout in Tampa and is recognized by several companies and is allied with the state's unemployment (now subsidized as 'Workforce') offices.

Bl8ckr0uter · September 2009

skrpune wrote: »

That was my thought. It sounds like it's going to be a pretty intensive program.

With 17 courses in a year, that's about 3 weeks each.

Oh EM Gee! That is not alot of time. I have been doing this CCNA for sometime (a solid couple of months) and I don't think there is anyway to pass that test in 3 weeks without prior experience. Even N+ maybe slightly difficult without networking knowledge. I am not sure about the MCSA/E but I am sure that it would be difficult. I read your post about the Community Colleges but many schools have certs/prep for certs built into the degree. have you considered that?

For an example, I am going back to school in the spring. With the A+/N+/CCNA/CCNA:S i can get out of about 30 credits out of a 90 credit degree. The best part about it is the fact I get credit for those classes when on my transcript as A's.

fleck · September 2009

knwminus wrote: »

Oh EM Gee! That is not alot of time. I have been doing this CCNA for sometime (a solid couple of months) and I don't think there is anyway to pass that test in 3 weeks without prior experience

17 classes for a handful of certs means that there will be compound months of training for each cert. And I AM already highly familiar with the subject matter at hand when it comes to A+ and Network+ (and I already have a couple of pages of Network+ notes from video lessons I've been watching). MS will be a bit hard, I know that much because I've seen the ridiculously specific types of questions they ask relating to menus and dialog boxes. I might put off the MS certs and go straight for CCENT and CCNA.

kimanyd · September 2009

The MCSE is composed of seven exams. With the other certs on your to-do list, I hardly think that qualifies as a "handful".

If you are so familiar with the material, what's the point of taking classes? There are cheaper and easier ways to learn. If you're the type of person you claim to be, this seems like an absolute waste for you.

You're more than welcome to do whatever you want; it's your life. You seem to be on the defensive and are acting like we don't want you to be successful for some reason. We're just familiar with those types of institutions and have gotten lots of feedback from people who have attended them. I think you're going to be hard pressed to find anyone here that will encourage you to go that route. Have you looked at WGU or Capella?

Oh well, if/when it doesn't work out, I suppose you can always try suing the school...

skrpune · September 2009

fleck wrote: »

17 classes for a handful of certs means that there will be compound months of training for each cert. And I AM already highly familiar with the subject matter at hand when it comes to A+ and Network+ (and I already have a couple of pages of Network+ notes from video lessons I've been watching). MS will be a bit hard, I know that much because I've seen the ridiculously specific types of questions they ask relating to menus and dialog boxes. I might put off the MS certs and go straight for CCENT and CCNA.

I'm not sure I would call A+ & Network+ & Security+ & MCSA & MCSE & CCENT & CCNA a "handful" of certs. That's a lot of stuff to cover! It works out to about 12 exams (give or take, depending on how you go with electives for MCSA/MCSE), so it averages out to about 1 exam per month over a 12 month period. We're not questioning your abilities or knowledge, but the pace of the program is pretty intensive, even for someone with some previous knowledge of some of the subject matter.

I can't speak for others here, but I am just trying to be helpful and give you some honest feedback. Just because your one campus gets an ok review with the BBB doesn't negate the less than stellar reputation of the overall parent company, and others out there might not make that distinction you make between the locations.

I truly wish you luck in your studies, and I would recommend that you take however much time you need to really learn the materials and to prepare not only for the exam but for the knowledge you'll need to perform on the job.

fleck · September 2009

Thanks to all, and hell yeah I'm on the defensive! I am already knee deep into this. FASFA and Pell have given me the loans/grants, and everyone's eyes are on me right now. If I back out of this now my parents will say 'go live with your sister or your loser friends!'

Also CCNA isn't part of the curriculum, just CCENT. CCNA obviously I plan to pursue another way, possibly independent studying which will be easier after I have the basics down.

I just think this is the best way for me to become educated on what I need to know to pass the certs. And to be honest I do not really learn well from just reading books or watching videos and taking notes. I need access to the classroom's hardware and software so that I can do the labs and get hands-on knowledge of what I'm doing. The most I'll have to buy over the next year might be a decent Cisco router to play with on my own time. The rest I can actually work on learning there at the school, have assignments to do and SPECIFIC things to learn, which really helps.

The MOST important part is that I get through this school, do well and obtain that piece of paper that says I've learned something.

skrpune · September 2009

fleck wrote: »

I just think this is the best way for me to become educated on what I need to know to pass the certs.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but your focus should be on learning the materials to apply on the job, not learning how to pass the exams. Perhaps it's just phrasing, but that first statement just doesn't sit well with me.

fleck wrote: »

The MOST important part is that I get through this school, do well and obtain that piece of paper that says I've learned something.

And I'd venture to say that the most important thing is that you learn the skills you need to back up the certs. It might be a nice added bonus to get a diploma, but I still caution against putting the training program/diploma on your resume since its reputation may not be seen as a positive addition. Diplomas for training programs don't get a lot of respect in the industry, so take that into account when you're working on your resume.

kimanyd · September 2009

I'd cut my losses and find something better. Throwing more time and money into a bad deal is only going to make things worse. There are quality programs for what you want to do; I'd seriously reevaluate the situation if I were you.

I agree with the hands-on portion, but we can help you build a lab that will allow you to do everything you could possibly want for a small fraction of what going there will cost you.

Also, when you speak of their reputation and how they'll help you with job placement or whatever, are respected businesses telling you that, or are they? Have you spoken with previous students? What types of jobs did they land? How are they doing now?

Question for the uber-geeks who have always loved computers.

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