Listing 'In Progress' Certs on Your Resume

[RANT]

I know I (and I hope we here on TE) take certifications more seriously than most, but this really bothered me.

Been interviewing candidates for a couple of positions and one of the candidates who made it through to me had some 'in progress' certifications listed on his resume. That really bothered me - you either have the certification or you don't. It just seemed like a ploy to get past the resume filters looking for keywords without any idea of context. I don't know how long you have been planning to earn the cert. Perhaps its only since you saw it as a requirement that you have been thinking about it, or maybe you have been studying for months and are afraid to take the exam. Either way you are of no use to me.

Unless you have passed the CCIE written and have the lab scheduled for next month, leave the 'in progress' crap off your resume!

[/RANT]

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Comments

ColbyG

Hyper-Me wrote: »

I know that before I had my MCITP:EA, I was getting many fewer interviews and being taken less seriously during those interviews when I had to explain that I would have it done soon or that I was working on it. Even though my experience was the same, even though I was managing a 2008 domain that was tens of thousands of times larger than the ones at the jobs I was interviewing for, they just didnt seem to care until I hit that milestone.

Well that sucks. I would hope that your experience would have trumped the cert, especially seeing that it went beyond the position you were applying to.

Claymoore

networker050184 wrote: »

Do you think I'm jsut making stuff up? I understand your opinion comes from what has worked for you, but that is the same way I formed my opinion. You are trying to act like your way is the only way. Obviously it's not if I have had no issue getting a job with certs in process on my resume.

I'm not saying there is an industry rule that says you can't list WIP on your resume. You're welcome to do it, but I'll probably toss your resume if I have to review it. But I'm just one person and if your resume never has to cross my inbox, what does it matter?

Personally, I don't even list all of my completed certs on my resume - but that's another discussion entirely.

Claymoore

Paul Boz wrote: »

I feel that the answer is to just finish the cert and list it then.

I actually delayed my job search by a month so I could complete my MCITP:EA and list it on my resume. Does that just add to the list of things that make me weird?

Paul Boz

Claymoore wrote: »

I actually delayed my job search by a month so I could complete my MCITP:EA and list it on my resume. Does that just add to the list of things that make me weird?

No. I was unemployed between my ISP job and where I am now, and delayed employment to finish the last of the CCNP exams and take another cert attempt. I'd rather have the competed cert than a job a month early. I'm right there with you.

pitviper

I guess it all works out in the end. I probably wouldn’t want to work for someone who would pass such harsh judgment down on me based off of just a few words on a resume. So throw my resume to the side please

Experience is king anyways!

ColbyG

For the record, if I have completed the CCIE Written, I shouldn't list it, as far as you guys are concerened?

mikej412

Hyper-Me wrote: »

Correct me if im wrong, but arent you one of the folks here who has expressed disdain for pulling Resumes only to see "XYZ cert in progress" when trying to fill a job that requires a completed "XYZ cert" ??

Yeah -- and now we only do technical interviews for CCVPs after HR has verified their employment & references. We wasted a lot of time interviewing job candidates who turned out to be HIGHLY UNQUALIFIED. The only skills most of them did possess -- based on their resumes -- was "creative writing."

The productivity lost on wasted interviews was far greater than any benefit of finding an inexperienced future CCVP superstar.

People are free to put what they want on their resume if they think it will get them an interview. And the people who read them are free to have HR screen out the fluff -- and to toss the resumes in the trash if they exhibits things that previous candidates have used to weasel interviews.

apena7

Claymoore wrote: »

Personally, I don't even list all of my completed certs on my resume - but that's another discussion entirely.

Exactly! I omit my SCJA certification because it was part of my college's curriculum. Java definitely isn't my area of expertise and I don't want to get grilled by an interviewer because he/she might be a Java guru. The resume sets expectations for the interviewer and I don't want to set the wrong ones right off the bat.

But I agree with those saying listing WIP on certs is a bit of a stretch. However, in the end, I suppose it's just a matter of personal preference. As for me, I would rather list the certs I already have and discuss any short-term plans that I have during the interview.

Bl8ckr0uter

knwminus wrote: »

To me I see this a bit unfair. Right now on my resume, I have my A.A.S listed as "in progress". I know I won;'t be done for another 8 months or so but no one is going to call me out for having it on my resume. I know certifications <> degrees but isn't this a clear double standard, even among our own fellow techies?

Anyone want to try to take a stab at answering my question?

mikej412

ColbyG wrote: »

For the record, if I have completed the CCIE Written, I shouldn't list it, as far as you guys are concerened?

The CCIE Written isn't a certification -- and is no guarantee you'll pass the lab.

A lot of people here don't like to use an Objective section -- but that's about the only place on a resume where you might be able to "get away" with listing a "future qualification" -- "Seeking position with Cisco Business Partner where I can build my CCNP knowledge and skills to the CCIE Level" is not an inaccurate statement.

Listing CCIE Written under certifications is going to look like you're playing buzz word bingo to someone actually looking for a CCIE. But it might work to get you an interview if you're replying to a recruiter's "kitchen sink" skills job ad.

Out of thousands of "CCIE Voice" resumes, I've only seen 3 that listed a number. And out of the 100+ CCVPs I interviewed (before we had HR start verifying the resume content) about 30-40 of them had their "CCIE Written" -- and were still part of the group of CCVPs who couldn't make a phone call if you gave them a pay phone and a pocket full of change.

ColbyG

mikej412 wrote: »

Out of thousands of "CCIE Voice" resumes, I've only seen 3 that listed a number. And out of the 100+ CCVPs I interviewed (before we had HR start verifying the resume content) about 30-40 of them had their "CCIE Written" -- and were still part of the group of CCVPs who couldn't make a phone call if you gave them a pay phone and a pocket full of change.

Hahahaha, awesome!

I see your point, but I will still likely list something about passing the written and an estimated lab date.

veritas_libertas

knwminus wrote: »

Anyone want to try to take a stab at answering my question?

He/She who hires sets the standards, and can be as picky as they want.

pitviper

mikej412 wrote: »

Out of thousands of "CCIE Voice" resumes, I've only seen 3 that listed a number. And out of the 100+ CCVPs I interviewed (before we had HR start verifying the resume content) about 30-40 of them had their "CCIE Written" -- and were still part of the group of CCVPs who couldn't make a phone call if you gave them a pay phone and a pocket full of change.

Damn, it's that bad there?

apena7

knwminus wrote: »

Anyone want to try to take a stab at answering my question?

I list my degree as a work in progress. I consider that different from certifications because it takes much longer to obtain a degree than most certs, especially if you were like me, who went to a community college part-time before transferring over to a university -- that's about 6 years worth of quantifiable work. So here's what's on my resume.

Western Governor's University
Bachelor's of Science in Information Technology (expected graduation date ####)

Paul Boz

Listing education in progress or incomplete college experience is not out of bounds for the very reasons you described.

Forsaken_GA

ColbyG wrote: »

Ok, so using this logic, wouldn't it be important that a candidate has passed one of the CCNP exams such as ROUTE or SWITCH? This signifies that the candidate could qualify for a position encompassing complex routing or switching tasks. If the candidate had only listed CCNA on his resume he may be passed up for a position which he was a good fit for.

If a job candidate has passed ROUTE, it would be appropriate for them to OSPF, EIGRP, RIP, and (maybe) BGP in the technologies they're proficient with section of their resume.

Using the CCNP name as a work in progress without actually holding the CCNP can be seen as an effort to make use of the certification's brand name recognition without actually holding it, and that can be seen as either misleading, or dishonest

(And before anyone blows a gasket, please pay attention to my wording, I'm choosing it very carefully to try and avoid giving the impression of an accusation)

mikej412

We get thousands AND thousands AND thousands of resumes every week. We're only going to look at person's resume once -- no matter how many jobs they apply for or updated resumes they send (unless they move, change their phone number and email, or drastically change their previous employers and education).

Forsaken_GA

ColbyG wrote: »

This is the other side of the spectrum though, no?

I mean comparing one credit class, which is a minute percentage of an entire degree to completing 25-50% of a certification seems overboard. I feel that completing 1/4 or 1/2 of something is worth noting, especially seeing as it can signify a knowledge level that a potential employer may not see otherwise.

Mike's example really isn't. What he's demonstrating with that example, and which you're helping along with this response, is that the degree to which it's 'acceptable' to list partial credit is a matter up to the person interpreting it, and if they don't find it acceptable, you're going to get passed over because of it, or blackballed entirely from any future possibility of employment.

And let's be frank, in this day and age of computers searching for keywords to flag resumes for review, listing the CCNP as a work in progress is going to get flagged exactly the same way as someone who has a valid CCNP.

In my opinion, it is not right for someone who has not earned the certification to get the same level of recognition, it's a way to game the system.

But it's a dog eat dog world.

Forsaken_GA

networker050184 wrote: »

I disagree. Why shouldn't a employer know what your ambitions are? I'll take an ambitious candidate over a non ambitious one any day of the week.

Paul isn't saying that letting your ambitions be known is a bad thing, like alot of other things in life, it's the method of presentation that counts. (don't we see that proven day in and day out on these forums?) Time and place, and all that, and what Paul is saying is that your resume should be a representation of what you have done and what you can do, not what you'd like to do.

networker050184

I think the real disconnect here is that some people are assuming that the only way knowledge is gained is though a certification. Just because you only passed the ROUTE doesn't mean you're not proficient with STP or Vlans or any other thing thats not covered in the ROUTE exam. Your list of certifications (and which ones you are working on) isn't directly tied to the skills you are proficient in IMO. The certifications are there to help prove that proficiency, they aren't there to make you competent.

networker050184

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Paul isn't saying that letting your ambitions be known is a bad thing, like alot of other things in life, it's the method of presentation that counts. (don't we see that proven day in and day out on these forums?) Time and place, and all that, and what Paul is saying is that your resume should be a representation of what you have done and what you can do, not what you'd like to do.

Well, if its a representation of what you have done, why wouldn't you put that you have done two exams towards the CCNP?

pitviper

I just don't get this argument - you guys are all assuming that all people who hold “X” cert are equal.

What’s better then, an honest person (like myself) who is say 80% done with a certificate (which has taken 18+ months and counting) with some relevant experience to back it, or someone who has cheated their way through the process and has 4 “official” letters?

skrpune

RouteThisWay wrote: »

I think what you hope to accomplish, working to achieve, etc all belong in your cover letter. (I would hope everyone submits a cover letter with their resume, right?).

In my opinion, a resume is a list of accomplishments or accolades you have done in your past to qualify you for a position. It let's a potential employer see verifiable work experience in the past that would be applicable to that position. It isn't a myspace, wishlist, or bucket list. It is about the skills you have at the time that you can market. Not things you hope that you can market in the future. Again, that is what a cover letter is for; to explain to the HR, hiring manager, etc why you would be a great fit, explain how you are continuing to grow and would like the opportunity to grow with them. Demonstrate how your future plans/certs/etc would impact their business.

I'm going to have to agree with you 100%. Resumes are for things you've accomplished and skills/credentials you have, and the cover letter is where you put the things that don't fall into the normal structure of a resume like things you haven't yet completed. MAYBE you can get away with putting in progress things into your resume's summary section (if you have one).

I think the one caveat is school/education...but maybe I'm a little biased because I include the school I'm currently attending on my resume's education/training section.

I list the university name, date & started attending, the program (CS masters) and date of expected completion. For now, I've just got it listed as 2011.

ColbyG

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Mike's example really isn't. What he's demonstrating with that example, and which you're helping along with this response, is that the degree to which it's 'acceptable' to list partial credit is a matter up to the person interpreting it, and if they don't find it acceptable, you're going to get passed over because of it, or blackballed entirely from any future possibility of employment.

And let's be frank, in this day and age of computers searching for keywords to flag resumes for review, listing the CCNP as a work in progress is going to get flagged exactly the same way as someone who has a valid CCNP.

In my opinion, it is not right for someone who has not earned the certification to get the same level of recognition, it's a way to game the system.

But it's a dog eat dog world.

It may get recognition from a computer, or possibly an HR weenie, but anyone who matters will understand the distinction. Pursuing is different than having attained, which is the important part. Obviously I'm not advocating listing a CCNP as completed if it isn't.

I don't think it's misleading or dishonest if you list that you are pursuing a cert (having made significant progress towards the cert, ie completing an exam or two). I think it's actually quite honest to say that you're working on a cert if you've completed exams for. I feel that a candidate should get credit for completing an exam. After all, the point of these exams is to signify that we are qualified at X level with X technology.

ColbyG

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

what Paul is saying is that your resume should be a representation of what you have done and what you can do, not what you'd like to do.

Which would mean listing completed exams should be perfectly fine.:D

ColbyG

pitviper wrote: »

What’s better then, an honest person (like myself) who is say 80% done with a certificate (which has taken 18+ months and counting) with some relevant experience to back it, or someone who has cheated their way through the process and has 4 “official” letters?

This opens a whole new can of worms, which is somewhat outside the scope of this debate. I think we can all agree that people who **** their way through a certification suck, especially if they don't have the experience and knowledge to back it up.

But my input here is assuming that all exams and certifications were passed honestly and with the knowledge to support them.

Forsaken_GA

networker050184 wrote: »

I think the real disconnect here is that some people are assuming that the only way knowledge is gained is though a certification. Just because you only passed the ROUTE doesn't mean you're not proficient with STP or Vlans or any other thing thats not covered in the ROUTE exam. Your list of certifications (and which ones you are working on) isn't directly tied to the skills you are proficient in IMO. The certifications are there to help prove that proficiency, they aren't there to make you competent.

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. The entire reason it's an issue though is that the certification gets more recognition. If you've got two guys listing three years of routing and switching experience, but one of them is showing a CCNP and the other isn't, you're probably going to talk to the CCNP guy first (though I think alot of veteran hiring managers would probably talk to both and let them sell themselves in the interviews. This is assuming that the guy without the CCNP made it past the filters)

And believe me, I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again - it's not the certification that counts, it's the knowledge you gain in the process of the certification that counts. I'm sure you've noticed that there are alot of 'how much time will it take me to get the <insert CCwhatever here>' threads in the Cisco forums... every time one of them pops up, I have to resist the urge to yell at the person asking (and sometimes I actually do type up the rant.... and then I decide not to post it). Far, far too many people see the letters as a way to get ahead and get a bigger paycheck rather than what they're intended to be - the means to an end, not the end itself

Forsaken_GA

ColbyG wrote: »

Which would mean listing completed exams should be perfectly fine.:D

I believe somewhere back in the first page, I said I may not have a problem listing exam names and numbers (it's situational, for example, once I pass BGP, I might considering adding the exam name and number to my resume, since it's a way to validate the fact that I do in fact know something about BGP. The QoS exam, I'm comfortable leaving off and just listing in my technologies section). But listing the certification those exams are part of, absolutely not, not until I earn the certification itself.

Forsaken_GA

networker050184 wrote: »

Well, if its a representation of what you have done, why wouldn't you put that you have done two exams towards the CCNP?

As I just said to Colby, I may list the exams themselves if I feel it needs further representation of my skills, but most of the time I'm comfortable leaving it in the technologies section, and I'll mention the exam passes in the cover letter or the interview.

Forsaken_GA

ColbyG wrote: »

I don't think it's misleading or dishonest if you list that you are pursuing a cert (having made significant progress towards the cert, ie completing an exam or two). I think it's actually quite honest to say that you're working on a cert if you've completed exams for. I feel that a candidate should get credit for completing an exam. After all, the point of these exams is to signify that we are qualified at X level with X technology.

I think we're all in accord with the fundamental sentiment, where we differ is on the mechanics of implementation. I think it's quite honest to say you're working on a cert as well. I just don't feel it's appropriate to do so on the resume.