Employer promoting the use of **** & illegal software

Hey all,

Not really sure what to do in this situation (since well, I've never been in this situation).

I work for a MS Silver Partner (small consulting firm, 5 techs total) - they use illegal (cracked, not even just reusing legit licensing!) for internal and client software.

I feel very, very uncomfortable with this. It makes my stomach turn. Also, after a conversation (since I am the only one who holds over a MCP) he was promoting the use of brains ****, and cheating.

All of this just feels VERY uncomfortable. I have only been here a month, so I do not know what to tell future employer's (of course I'm looking for a new gig) about what happened? They say not to speak negatively about an employer.

Thoughts?

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Comments

SteveLord

Like Paul Boz said, working gets a paycheck.

I had to deal with software issues at a previous employer. Eventually I just never thought about it anymore. It was also much older software that I inherited. Nothing more was obtained during my time there (as they were just cheap)....whether it was legit or not!

And to say that because one overuses/steals software, also makes them likely to steal from you....is a little too much. You might as well say the hundreds of thousands of P2P/Torrent users also **** on their spouses and torture kittens. And those who take pens from work also take money out of charity pots.

It's just one of those things that is relatively easy to get away with....and nobody generally gets punished for.

RobertKaucher

erpadmin wrote: »

Having said that, if a company can't afford to license things properly, they probably can't afford other things too....like an eventual raise. At this point, I would want to bounce from a place like that anyway, but not because "pirated software is wrong...Golly-Gee-Willikers, Skip...."

Yes, golly-gee. Bounce because it might adversly affect your salary. F the person who built the software. The concern here is not so much that a company is using improperly licensed software. In this case the company is profiting from, at the least, selling services around installing and administering illegal software. It's not just that they are not willing to pay for their own licenses or are using using improperly licensed software.

badboyeee

I had a temporary summer job as a Network Tech number of years ago. I was already done implementing the small office network but they asked me if I could get them copies of Windows XP & Office. I said no, but they let me go the next week when I was supposed to have one more month left.

rsutton

SteveLord wrote: »

And to say that because one overuses/steals software, also makes them likely to steal from you....is a little too much. You might as well say the hundreds of thousands of P2P/Torrent users also **** on their spouses and torture kittens. And those who take pens from work also take money out of charity pots.

I didn't get that from any of the posts in this thread, but I could have missed it. Ethics aside, I think one should question the logic of "we need to cut costs somewhere" & the response is pirated / cracked etc. software. Maybe it's the only bad business decision they will make, but it should raise a red flag.

erpadmin

RobertKaucher wrote: »

Yes, golly-gee. Bounce because it might adversly affect your salary. F the person who built the software. The concern here is not so much that a company is using improperly licensed software. In this case the company is profiting from, at the least, selling services around installing and administering illegal software. It's not just that they are not willing to pay for their own licenses or are using using improperly licensed software.

If a company is selling unlicensed software and are making bank, then yes, now you're getting into Federal terrority. I wouldn't want nor need to mess with that, regardless of my employment situation.

But as for your high and mighty attitude in regards to your first two sentences, I will only answer with this:

"Let he who is without...."

By the by, let's not pretend that Microsoft is some little developer, selling his application for $10-$100, and not some multi-billion dollar conglomerate. Save that "F the person..." speech for the little guy.

But again, having said that....I'm in a position in life (professionally and personally) where I don't have to steal from Billy Gates anymore. But don't expect me to throw stones at someone who does, either.

L0gicB0mb508

I'm going out on a limb and say that just about any company will do some unethical stuff to cut the bottom line. If they think they can get away with it of course. I don't condone ****, but to be honest I could care less. Your paper certs mean nothing if you can't do the job, so add all the extra letters to your resume you want. That doesn't mean you don't suck at your job. Software piracy is obviously illegal, but you would be surprised how many little shops do it. I've seen several "Microsoft Partners" throwing out pirated or cracked software. It may not be right, but that's just how the cookie crumbles. I've even seen some rather large entities use pirated software. If it bothers you that much, move on. You had better well have a new position lined up before you do any reporting though.

Plantwiz

L0gicB0mb508 wrote: »

I'm going out on a limb and say that just about any company will do some unethical stuff to cut the bottom line.

I can think of several who wouldn't risk their corporate ethics for the bottom line. They'll make other cuts, but not do something illegal to impress anyone.

software piracy is obviously illegal, but you would be surprised how many little shops do it.

Then as a professional, educate them on their options. Non-Profits have quite a few good options including tech soup to acquire legal licensing at a reduced rate. There are also the Linux options.

I've seen several "Microsoft Partners" throwing out pirated or cracked software.

So, they throw out illegal licensing to install valid licensing? Isn't this what they should do? Or am I reading this incorrectly?

It may not be right, but that's just how the cookie crumbles. I've even seen some rather large entities use pirated software. If it bothers you that much, move on. You had better well have a new position lined up before you do any reporting though.

Just because 'others' do something, that doesn't make it correct to continue or support the illegal activity.

I am finding the various opinions on this topic...interesting.

erpadmin

Plantwiz wrote: »

So, they throw out illegal licensing to install valid licensing? Isn't this what they should do? Or am I reading this incorrectly?

I am pretty sure he meant "throwing them out there" as opposed to getting rid of cracked and pirated software....otherwise, his points wouldn't make sense.

Turgon

Paul Boz wrote: »

It's simple. Morals and ethics don't pay my bills. If I can align morals and ethics with my job thats a plus. I'm not saying its a victim-less crime, I'm just not willing to implicate my well-being because of it.

One might argue that morals and ethics are important for security professionals.

Excellent1

erpadmin wrote: »

If a company is selling unlicensed software and are making bank, then yes, now you're getting into Federal terrority. I wouldn't want nor need to mess with that, regardless of my employment situation.

But as for your high and mighty attitude in regards to your first two sentences, I will only answer with this:

"Let he who is without...."

By the by, let's not pretend that Microsoft is some little developer, selling his application for $10-$100, and not some multi-billion dollar conglomerate. Save that "F the person..." speech for the little guy.

But again, having said that....I'm in a position in life (professionally and personally) where I don't have to steal from Billy Gates anymore. But don't expect me to throw stones at someone who does, either.

Did your account get hacked?

So far you've questioned the motives of the original poster because he was uncomfortable with theft (as if not wanting any part of theft is somehow suspect), downplayed theft as if it were no big deal (golly gee), and now you're saying that stealing is ok if your target makes a lot of money.

Character, principles, and integrity matter all the time, whether it's convenient or not. It doesn't matter who is watching or who you're stealing from. Trying to draw some kind of moral equivalency from the Bible to justify your support of stealing from the rich is also extremely ironic.

Yes, I know that in today's cut throat, get-ahead-at-the-expense-of-anyone-necessary world such statements are naive and quaint. I'll take my naivete over sacrificing my integrity on the altar of convenience. If that means I arrive a little bit later to my destination than those taking shortcuts, well, I'll enjoy arriving with my soul intact.

RobertKaucher

erpadmin wrote: »

But as for your high and mighty attitude in regards to your first two sentences, I will only answer with this:

"Let he who is without...."

By the by, let's not pretend that Microsoft is some little developer, selling his application for $10-$100, and not some multi-billion dollar conglomerate. Save that "F the person..." speech for the little guy.

But again, having said that....I'm in a position in life (professionally and personally) where I don't have to steal from Billy Gates anymore. But don't expect me to throw stones at someone who does, either.

I aint judging. Except to say the guy's a DB.

But don't make out like I'm some kind of goodie-two-shoes because I'm willing to stand up for what I know to be right. I'm not telling anyone to call the BSA, or saying someone is going to burn forever. I'm just saying I won't do business with people who make money like that. I believe that using pirated software for business purposes is theft. And I don't care how big the company is. I've done my fair share of similar things. I don't believe there is always a clear right and wrong in every situation. But I do think this situation clearly crosses into the wrong side of grey.

RobertKaucher

Plantwiz wrote: »

I am finding the various opinions on this topic...interesting.

I like the fact that we are all talking like grown ups and no one is getting upset. Way it should be. My opinions only matter to a select few people. Most of them are related to me. Come to think of it, not one is married to me... Oh, well. I guess being a husband is to be ignored.

blargoe

I've worked for a small partner that used some software they might not have been entitled to internally. That's one thing.

The thing I find so striking about your situation is they are taking this pirated/hacked software, and installing it on their customer's networks, the customers probably being none the wiser... Joe Blow the small business owner and casual PC user has no idea about software licensing and how any of that works. He pays x dollars and gets some software on his system, with the expectation that he is OK. This is out and out fraud. This isn't a ethical gray area.

I wouldn't be able to willfully participate in such activities once the truth became known to me.

There's also the other point... this company is being driven to steal software and sell copied software... either because they are financially very bad off and can't afford legit software; or, in their greed, they are trying to maximize their own personal profit. In either case, I would run for the hills!

Priston

erpadmin wrote: »

If a company is selling unlicensed software and are making bank, then yes, now you're getting into Federal terrority. I wouldn't want nor need to mess with that, regardless of my employment situation.

But as for your high and mighty attitude in regards to your first two sentences, I will only answer with this:

"Let he who is without...."

By the by, let's not pretend that Microsoft is some little developer, selling his application for $10-$100, and not some multi-billion dollar conglomerate. Save that "F the person..." speech for the little guy.

But again, having said that....I'm in a position in life (professionally and personally) where I don't have to steal from Billy Gates anymore. But don't expect me to throw stones at someone who does, either.

I can understand obtaining software questionably for personal/educational use. (try it before you buy it)

But if your a business, the way I look at it is that software is making you more productive and/or making your operations easier. Therefore that software is increasing your revenue and/or reducing expenses. If you buy the software it's going to pay for itself. If it doesn't pay for itself its not worth having.

Don't like paying for Microsoft Office? Get Open Office.
Don't like paying for Microsoft operating systems? Get Linux.

If you love using Microsoft so much, pay for it.

L0gicB0mb508

Plantwiz wrote: »

I can think of several who wouldn't risk their corporate ethics for the bottom line. They'll make other cuts, but not do something illegal to impress anyone.

Then as a professional, educate them on their options. Non-Profits have quite a few good options including tech soup to acquire legal licensing at a reduced rate. There are also the Linux options.

So, they throw out illegal licensing to install valid licensing? Isn't this what they should do? Or am I reading this incorrectly?

Just because 'others' do something, that doesn't make it correct to continue or support the illegal activity.

I am finding the various opinions on this topic...interesting.

The shops install cracked or pirated software. Matter of fact I've even seen a few gov agencies installing some not so legal software. Most shops don't need an education. They are doing it to increase profit. A lecture from a tech isn't going to change their opinion. I didn't say I condoned the activity, I just don't care that it goes on.

Plantwiz

L0gicB0mb508 wrote: »

The shops install cracked or pirated software. Matter of fact I've even seen a few gov agencies installing some not so legal software. Most shops don't need an education. They are doing it to increase profit. A lecture from a tech isn't going to change their opinion. I didn't say I condoned the activity, I just don't care that it goes on.

Sure, I understand what you saying.

My comment was that there ARE infact companies who will NOT install pirated/cracked software in the hopes they can save money. They pay for licensing and do so as a cost-of-business.

My comment was to your comment about companies doing stuff to shave a buck from the expense column...my experience proves that this isn't true for 'most' companies.

And personally, I do care that it goes on. I don't find it 'ok' that some do this, but at the same time, I see why some here have stated that they don't care it happens.

I'll work at making a difference in my little corner of the world as best I am able. Ingrity to me is too precious to sell out for a job. However, that's what works for me. Others may choose a different path.

erpadmin

Excellent1 wrote: »

Did your account get hacked? So far you've questioned the motives of the original poster because he was uncomfortable with theft (as if not wanting any part of theft is somehow suspect), downplayed theft as if it were no big deal (golly gee), and now you're saying that stealing is ok if your target makes a lot of money.

Do me a favor, and don't put words in my mouth. I never questioned the OP's original motives. In fact, that was the first thing I said in that first post, and if you perhaps thought I was being sarcastic, you were very much mistaken.

In fact I was questioning everyone who has these "character, principles and integrity" issues. Before we all label me as a l337 pirate, let me AGAIN reiterate that I don't condone piracy at all. In fact, I no longer have to. When I was a younger man, it DID serve its purpose, but now that I have access to MS software LEGALLY....I no longer have to put my networks/PCs at risk by some 11 year old script kiddie.

Excellent1 wrote: »

Character, principles, and integrity matter all the time, whether it's convenient or not. It doesn't matter who is watching or who you're stealing from. Trying to draw some kind of moral equivalency from the Bible to justify your support of stealing from the rich is also extremely ironic.

Yes, I know that in today's cut throat, get-ahead-at-the-expense-of-anyone-necessary world such statements are naive and quaint. I'll take my naivete over sacrificing my integrity on the altar of convenience. If that means I arrive a little bit later to my destination than those taking shortcuts, well, I'll enjoy arriving with my soul intact.

My friend, we're talking downloading software...not cheating on an exam, or lying on in an interview. I CAN buy and HAVE bought MS software in the past (Office, etc) before I realized that my job has that license for Home jazz. Bill Gates has received money from me. Let me clarify my position for you though....

1) Downloading pirated software AND selling it is WRONG and I do not condone that. You won't find that I ever agreed with that.

2) Downloading pirated software to try and use....it is always best that you pay for it, but if for whatever reason you can't.....then hey, that's between you, your priest (if Catholic) and God.

3) If your employer is too cheap/poor to be using properly licensed software, than it is in your best interest to move on....however, I will always wonder if there is an underlying motive (and no, Your Excellency, this is STILL not in the OP's case....this is blanketed to all.)

erpadmin

RobertKaucher wrote: »

I aint judging. Except to say the guy's a DB. But don't make out like I'm some kind of goodie-two-shoes because I'm willing to stand up for what I know to be right.

Fair enough; agreed and noted.

RobertKaucher wrote: »

I've done my fair share of similar things. I don't believe there is always a clear right and wrong in every situation. But I do think this situation clearly crosses into the wrong side of grey.

That's all I'm saying...I'm sure most of us have done our share of similar things. In the OP's case, this is definitely shady.

What kind of got me a bit heated though (and it wasn't you, personally, Robert) was that there was this high and mighty vibe about quitting jobs on this quasi-moral high ground. I'm not buying that given the choice, there would be people that would walk away from a job immediately because of pirated software. I do buy that they would look for a job immediately, but I do not believe there would be folks that would want to be unemployed because their boss wants them to download a torrent...and this has nothing to do with integrity either...you can still CYA, or look for another employer while still being employed. Advising that people quit without any prospects is borderline irresponsible.

za3bour

RobertKaucher wrote: »

I aint judging. Except to say the guy's a DB. But don't make out like I'm some kind of goodie-two-shoes because I'm willing to stand up for what I know to be right. I'm not telling anyone to call the BSA, or saying someone is going to burn forever. I'm just saying I won't do business with people who make money like that. I believe that using pirated software for business purposes is theft. And I don't care how big the company is. I've done my fair share of similar things. I don't believe there is always a clear right and wrong in every situation. But I do think this situation clearly crosses into the wrong side of grey.

Ok let me ask you this,

What if you are in a country say like Syria, Iran or even North Korea what can you do if you are NOT allowed to buy any Microsoft Products and you are NOT allowed to download/use any Google Aps and you can't use Linux everywhere at least not in School and small businesses.

Yes there are alternatives but they are not the right alternatives all the time, Linux is harder to use/teach than Windows so you don't really have the luxurious choice here.

I had to use Pirated Microsoft products in the past because I NEED to use them and I can't buy them in Syria and a lot of features are actually blocked because we're in the "axis of evil".
Now I don't have to deal with this, I did buy MS Office the next day I landed my feet in Saudi Arabia because I think this is the right thing to do I have to agree erpadmin with what he's saying I'm not gonna throw a stone at someone who does although I believe it's wrong.

SephStorm

Mention it. Then your next employer will know right off the bat that you wont stand for any BS, you dont want to end up in the same situation.

Bl8ckr0uter

If you were a contractor of the company I would say hell no, since you wouldn't be an agent of the company. Since you are an employee (and thusly an agent) I'd say as long as you have it in writing (and you also make sure you note that your empolyer takes full responsibility and liability) do it. In the end, you need to get paid and as bad as it sounds, it is just software. If they said "Hey go punch babies" then that's different. Just make sure you get them to assume liability. Go buy a law 2-3 year law student lunch and see what they think of the situation (assuming you don't have prepaid legal or a lawyer buddy).

Psoasman

FadeToBright wrote: »

Hey all,

Not really sure what to do in this situation (since well, I've never been in this situation).

I work for a MS Silver Partner (small consulting firm, 5 techs total) - they use illegal (cracked, not even just reusing legit licensing!) for internal and client software.

I feel very, very uncomfortable with this. It makes my stomach turn. Also, after a conversation (since I am the only one who holds over a MCP) he was promoting the use of brains ****, and cheating.

All of this just feels VERY uncomfortable. I have only been here a month, so I do not know what to tell future employer's (of course I'm looking for a new gig) about what happened? They say not to speak negatively about an employer.

Thoughts?

If it should come up in in an interview why you left after 1 month, just be honest. Tell them you were uncomfortable with them using illegal software and asking you to work with it. I doubt they would see that as negative. They would probably see that you have integrity. Since you are uncomfortable with it, I would definitely move on. If you stayed there a year and finally moved on because it made you uncomfortable, it might be looked upon differently.

I generally see things more black and white, using illegally obtained software is illegal. Licensing is there for a reason. Now do I think some of the licensing costs are exorbitant? Yes, I do.

I personally would not install some illegal software at work if I knew it was cracked. It could easily come back to bite me. That of course, is my opinion. Some people would have no problems with it and that's their choice.

Very interesting thread, a lot of well-thought out responses.

vCole

Plantwiz wrote: »

I was thinking this as well.

The above thread has a very similar situation.

Stay true to yourself.

Yes and no.

While hiring a person who 'currently' is employed tends to be a desirable candidate, hiring someone without current employement works especially when the candidate has a 'good reason'.

Integrity sits high with many employers. Some won't care, but there are businesses and managers who DO care how their employees carry themselves and the corporate image.

If you are also going to school (and you were last I read) than you might use that to your advantage as well and work on another course or two in the 'down' time.

You could do some consulting on your own and take a client at a time while working on school. Things may be tight for a while, but I suspect someone with your knowledge will not be without for long.

Stay true to yourself.

Unfortunately, I need a job since I do not live at home and have rent, utilities, bills, etc. So I need to stay until I find another place to work.

SephStorm

ultimatly it is your choice, but it sounds like you feel like you have no choice. Just remember that it will have repercussions in the future. Once you do it now, what will be the excuse next time? We are rarely in a position to quit jobs when we want to, or when its best for us.

Turgon

SephStorm wrote: »

ultimatly it is your choice, but it sounds like you feel like you have no choice. Just remember that it will have repercussions in the future. Once you do it now, what will be the excuse next time? We are rarely in a position to quit jobs when we want to, or when its best for us.

Which is one of the reasons some organisations and corporations get away with murder. Sometimes literally. On planet Earth ideally commonsense would prevail and there would be fewer problems and conflicts of interest. In the absence of that there is law. In the absence of observance of the law the individual has to decide for themselves what they will tolerate or look away from to make a wage.

RobertKaucher

erpadmin wrote: »

Fair enough; agreed and noted.

That's all I'm saying...I'm sure most of us have done our share of similar things. In the OP's case, this is definitely shady.

What kind of got me a bit heated though (and it wasn't you, personally, Robert) was that there was this high and mighty vibe about quitting jobs on this quasi-moral high ground. I'm not buying that given the choice, there would be people that would walk away from a job immediately because of pirated software. I do buy that they would look for a job immediately, but I do not believe there would be folks that would want to be unemployed because their boss wants them to download a torrent...and this has nothing to do with integrity either...you can still CYA, or look for another employer while still being employed. Advising that people quit without any prospects is borderline irresponsible.

No, I agree and would not think less of anyone who did not quit a job like that. But I think, as you pointed out, there are more practical reasons to leave. In the situation I was in back in late 2008/early 2009 I was actually able to convince them to go legit - but I still quit because I could not handle seeing my coworkers being barated in front of everyone in the office or being called an idiot in from of a vendor when my boss had no idea what the actual problem I was trying to resolve was (she sure thought she did, but was wrong). If the only problem had been the pirated software (and I know it was because the key was in a text file saying where it was downloaded from and I had a license report done from MS) I might have stayed regardless. But that sort of thing is a symptom of something much worse and I do not want to be involved in it.