Finally Something Done About For-Profit Schools

5% of For Profit Schools May Be Closed

About time they had some rules attached to all that federal money and mounting loan debt.

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WafflesAndRootbeer

Now if only the government would go after ECPI and set an example....

demonfurbie

about time

i know schools need to make a profit but some are borderline price gouging

powerfool

I know the schools are questionable, but the students are adults that should be held responsible, bottom line. If everyone wants the Feds to keep acting like their parents, perhaps we should have a sign up form... I am not interested. If you take out a student loan, you pay it back. Do the research yourself about what school you go to. I provided council to my younger cousin about this already and got him out of DeVry, I have done my part.

joneno

powerfool wrote: »

I know the schools are questionable, but the students are adults that should be held responsible, bottom line. If everyone wants the Feds to keep acting like their parents, perhaps we should have a sign up form... I am not interested. If you take out a student loan, you pay it back. Do the research yourself about what school you go to. I provided council to my younger cousin about this already and got him out of DeVry, I have done my part.

+1 to my fellow UMUC Student...lol

NetworkingStudent

eansdad wrote: »

5% of For Profit Schools May Be Closed

About time they had some rules attached to all that federal money and mounting loan debt.

I don’t think this is enough!! My biggest beef with for profit colleges is that they don’t explain the difference between regional and non-regional accreditation. I’m a graduate of a for profit college and only after being in school for a year or year and a half did I found out the hard way that most of my credits wouldn’t transfer to a regional accredited college. I went tried to apply at Hennepin Technical College and they said since my school has different accreditation and we only go to school for 12 weeks vs. their 16 weeks they can’t accept my credits. Moreover, I think they also gave the argument of quarters vs. semesters. They said they would look at my credits if I wrote appeals for each class and I had to write out what I learned in each one. Also, I went to Metro State and the Admissions Rep even said I didn’t ask the right questions when I applied to my school. At the time I didn’t know what the right questions were. He gave me a rundown of what colleges in MN might accept my credits and he said Metro state would only take 15 of the credits I completed at my college.

My point: If you go to a non regional accredited for profit school and you want to get a bachelors degree you have 2 options:

A. Pay even more to get your bachelors at the for profit school you graduated from with you’re A.A.S

B. Find a similar non regional accredited colleges that accepts your degree/credits

C. Start your degree over from scratch and go to a regional accredited school

There needs to be a law that the for profit school must explain the difference between regional accreditation and non regional accreditation. Also, the school should explain how these degrees might not transfer to other accredited schools.

Note: Anyone ever notice that 90% or more of for profit schools don’t have transfer agreements?

Almost, all the regional accredited colleges that I know of in MN have some sort of transfer agreement with one or many of the big 4 year colleges in MN.

Buyer be ware

You live and learn.

Zartanasaurus

powerfool wrote: »

I know the schools are questionable, but the students are adults that should be held responsible, bottom line. If everyone wants the Feds to keep acting like their parents, perhaps we should have a sign up form... I am not interested. If you take out a student loan, you pay it back. Do the research yourself about what school you go to. I provided council to my younger cousin about this already and got him out of DeVry, I have done my part.

I have no problem with this, but the schools need to be held responsible for how they are spending tax dollars.

unclerico

Your education, your responsibility. It is not the governments job to hold your hand at every stage of your life. Since the government is on yet another witch hunt, maybe all organizations that receive tax dollars should be audited? That'll be the day... the cost of an education at a public university is skyrocketing at a pace many times that of inflation but nobody complains about that. Look at ivy league schools. In some cases they have billions in endowments, but how much of that money goes to making the education cheaper? Very little. Hell, the U of M has over a billion and yet it still costs on average more than 10k per year to go there. The moral of the story is that public or private, they got you by the nads.

hiddenknight821

NetworkingStudent wrote: »

Buyer be ware

You live and learn.

To be honest with you guys, I definitely learn a lot from this. I'm a first-generation college student, and I didn't get a lot of advices on picking good schools when I was in high school. I got lucky. Only because the majority of my friends went to same school that I attended, which is very reputable by the way. There are only three big schools in U.S. that can accommodate us individuals. Now, I know better how to pick out good schools for my future kids/niece/nephews.

Just wondering, did you even finish school yet? If not, then how far did you go and where are you now? I had to ask because your screenname said you're a student

lunchbox67

Hey, I will be happy when they government starts shutting down the joke of schools they run.

If an adult digs a hole and jumps in, too bad for them. Grow up and take some responsibility for your actions.

colemic

lunchbox67 wrote: »

Hey, I will be happy when they government starts shutting down the joke of schools they run.

If an adult digs a hole and jumps in, too bad for them. Grow up and take some responsibility for your actions.

While I agree - somewhat - I think it is flawed logic. I am all for adults taking responsibility, but I think the bigger issue (or at least perception), is that the for-profit schools have been misleading, if not flat out lying, to those adults. It could be considered a basic form of fraud. I don't like government intervention either, but I am ok with the changes they are wanting. It's like blaming the people of Enron for not knowing the company was being looted, and saying it was their fault. Or Bernie Madoff's clients. The reason for the government stepping in, is because people are getting presented false information and being swindled into agreements that they have been intentionally misinformed about.

Just my .02 on why I am ok with the government doing something in this situation.

afcyung

Because schools ripping students off and saddling them with debt only happens at for profit schools.

is-the-college-debt-bubble-ready-to-explode: Personal Finance News from Yahoo! Finance

Sorry but if the administration is going to target for profit schools they need to target all schools. I also dont think its fair to hold schools accountable for the success of the students after they have graduated when unemployment is still on the rise. Maybe the administration should worry about the economy and theses students would have jobs.

veritas_libertas

afcyung wrote: »

Because schools ripping students off and saddling them with debt only happens at for profit schools.

Exactly. The only reason public colleges aren't higher is because of the tax dollars being poured into them. I'm not convinced that we can say for profit = bad.

I've been reading through a textbook for WGU, and one interesting thing I read about was how Harvard and Princeton's overall graduation GPA has been increasing each year. I'm sorry but something funny is definitely going on when 90% of your graduates graduate with honors...

Essay - How to End Grade Inflation - NYTimes.com

Has anyone paid for a college book lately? $150 is a little ridiculous for a college math book

What I'm trying to say is that education has and is being exploited for profit. This is not likely to change any time soon. I also find it hilarious that government institutions will not be required to hold to this standard. If you are going to attend a university than use a little common sense.

Turgon

Education, like war, is a racket unfortunately. One of the problems is this assumed trajectory from college to a highly paid career, with people enticed to put their money down on this basis and then unhappy when the big bucks dont flow but the debts mount up. Education is not about the 'bottom line'. It is much more important than that. It should be about your life and your ability to not only generate personal wealth (should you be lucky enough to operate in avenues of employment that offer that potential, many fantastic people choose to work an avenue that doesn't and you should be glad that is the case because they provide tremendous service to society) but a vehicle to become a more developed person that you probably wouldn't be without it. That is of benefit not only to yourself, but to your family and society at large. Being around academics, bright people and different people is good for you. As is being exposed to different subjects. IT isn't the be all and end all of an education. I *did* IT at University years ago, switched to History and then did a Masters in IT later to get *equipped* for the workforce but I still look back on my humanities education as the most influential from a development point of view.

As for the grade debate, I will defer. The important thing is that people get an *education*. If they turn out Gold, Silver or Bronze due to ability times work ethic (or lack of either in varying degrees) that's fine but the education in and of itself is the key for any individual no matter what colour gong they spin out of college with. All I will say is that while the stats show that more people are graduating with higher grades I do not believe people are getting smarter. Employers are really struggling with the numeracy, literacy and interaction of young people these days including many, many graduates, and a few years ago Oxford University had to put another year onto the Physics degree because too many students were being accepted with top marks at A level only to really struggle with the level of mathematics required for the undergraduate degree.

A society,as far as I know, never became less enriched because it's population was well educated. Enrichment matters, for everybody, even if they end up sweeping the streets for a living. It's something schools need to think about and prospective students need to keep in mind before they sign up for expensive courses. All I can say is being *educated* served me very well in my life. Even if I can't remember the details of the History lectures I sat through nearly twenty years ago, looking back Im really glad I was there. I also studied IT but at least it was marginally affordable then.

Education has become too skewed. It is now the pursuit of grades and dollars when it should be the pursuit of education. Any developed country should aspire to offer a World Class education for every single citizen tailored to each individual's ability and it should be paid for by the state.

tpatt100

I read the government wanted stricter regulations but the for profit colleges had an army of lobbyists descend on Washington and got rules relaxed. The for profits count on government grants for students which make up most of their income so they were scared of tighter regulations. The loans are less preferred than the grants because loans no matter what the government is going to take back their money, grants on the other hand they don't they just cut you off when you flunk out.

powerfool

Actually, if you want to find the root of the issue with education, you have no further than to look at Washington. Schools, non-profit and for-profit alike, are increasing their tuitions because of Washington... it is simple supply and demand. Everyone needs college, right? So, Washington creates programs to make it "affordable" for people to go to school. What this has done is create a new floor for education... instead of it being $0, it is $8k in grants and another $16k in subsidized student loans... per year... not to mention other government backed student loans and private loans. So, it creates an opportunity for the schools... if they can snag the government money then these students must have some money on top of that... so they can raise tuition even more.

Now, Obama and the last Congress passed the student loan "forgiveness" where you only pay your minimum interest for 20 years and it is forgiven, and it is only 10 years if you work in certain jobs, like healthcare and federal government. That is surely going to make students want to be more prudent with their education dollars, isn't it?

Washington is the problem, isn't the solution.

tpatt100

powerfool wrote: »

Actually, if you want to find the root of the issue with education, you have no further than to look at Washington. Schools, non-profit and for-profit alike, are increasing their tuitions because of Washington... it is simple supply and demand. Everyone needs college, right? So, Washington creates programs to make it "affordable" for people to go to school. What this has done is create a new floor for education... instead of it being $0, it is $8k in grants and another $16k in subsidized student loans... per year... not to mention other government backed student loans and private loans. So, it creates an opportunity for the schools... if they can snag the government money then these students must have some money on top of that... so they can raise tuition even more.

Now, Obama and the last Congress passed the student loan "forgiveness" where you only pay your minimum interest for 20 years and it is forgiven, and it is only 10 years if you work in certain jobs, like healthcare and federal government. That is surely going to make students want to be more prudent with their education dollars, isn't it?

Washington is the problem, isn't the solution.

The College Cost Reduction and Access Act was passed in 2007. So it was a George Bush and Democratic Congress signed act. The expanded section did not take effect until 2009, but it is not "minimum interest" it was a percentage of your income now 15 percent of your income. It's discretionary income though.

The 10 year public service sector was the original plan and then was expanded to include the 20 years max. The thing is the cost savings for a forgiveness on anything after 20 years is supposed to be marginal because if you go on the 10 percent of your income for 20 years anything left after that if you do stay below your max loan amount for a four year degree should not be a lot of money anyways. So I guess it would be considered a back end tax credit. I tried reading the actual bill it was only 40 pages but could not find out if the maximum loan amounts would be reduced.

edit: did some more googling and the 20 year forgiveness was not passed, it was only a proposal from last year.

powerfool

tpatt100 wrote: »

The College Cost Reduction and Access Act was passed in 2007. So it was a George Bush and Democratic Congress signed act. The expanded section did not take effect until 2009, but it is not "minimum interest" it was a percentage of your income now 15 percent of your income. It's discretionary income though.

The 10 year public service sector was the original plan and then was expanded to include the 20 years max. The thing is the cost savings for a forgiveness on anything after 20 years is supposed to be marginal because if you go on the 10 percent of your income for 20 years anything left after that if you do stay below your max loan amount for a four year degree should not be a lot of money anyways. So I guess it would be considered a back end tax credit. I tried reading the actual bill it was only 40 pages but could not find out if the maximum loan amounts would be reduced.

edit: did some more googling and the 20 year forgiveness was not passed, it was only a proposal from last year.

It was snuck into the healthcare legislation last year and takes effect in 2014. It caps your minimum payments at 10% of your income.

Nonetheless, the point is that this removes responsibility from students, and presumably adults.

Even if it is marginal, it is still another step down a long road that has created problems, rather than solve them.

Many employers offer tuition reimbursement, as does mine. It is not as if the government is the only one stepping up to the plate. These programs don't need expansion. As I still have student loan debt from my undergrad work, I am trying to stick within my employer's tuition reimbursement thresholds, or pay for it myself. My employers (over the course of my undergrad I had three) paid for about half of my tuition. The other half was student loans, and I pay those.

Consider this: with the new legislation, I could start another graduate program in 2014 and takeout student loans and use them to pay off my student loans from 2003-2007. This actually is not what the program was intended for... this sort of thing happens all of the time.... unintended consequences.

tpatt100

powerfool wrote: »

It was snuck into the healthcare legislation last year and takes effect in 2014. It caps your minimum payments at 10% of your income.

Nonetheless, the point is that this removes responsibility from students, and presumably adults.

Even if it is marginal, it is still another step down a long road that has created problems, rather than solve them.

Many employers offer tuition reimbursement, as does mine. It is not as if the government is the only one stepping up to the plate. These programs don't need expansion. As I still have student loan debt from my undergrad work, I am trying to stick within my employer's tuition reimbursement thresholds, or pay for it myself. My employers (over the course of my undergrad I had three) paid for about half of my tuition. The other half was student loans, and I pay those.

Consider this: with the new legislation, I could start another graduate program in 2014 and takeout student loans and use them to pay off my student loans from 2003-2007. This actually is not what the program was intended for... this sort of thing happens all of the time.... unintended consequences.

The Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010 covers that but you have to make payments for 20 years at 10 percent of your income. The forgiveness happens at the end of 20 years which like I said if you follow the maximum amounts allowed for an undergrad degree or even if you get crazy stupid for an undergrad the "forgiveness amount is small. If you take 50K in loans for an undergrad degree and pay 10 percent of your income for 20 years your loan is paid off in 20 years if you are making at least 38K a year based on the current 6.8 percent interest rates.

I don't think looking at the numbers this is as great as it sounds unless you go into the public sector.

SteveLord

How paper just did an article for local schools here. Basically, cost rising...pockets being lined, more students failing and left with debt.

here is article

bilde?Site=D2&Date=20110605&Category=NEWS02&ArtNo=106050336&Ref=V8&MaxW=300&Border=0

bilde?Site=D2&Date=20110605&Category=NEWS02&ArtNo=106050336&Ref=V8&MaxW=300&Border=0

djfunz

This topic definitely strikes a nerve with me. I was 18 years old out of High School and had no idea what I wanted to do in life. So what happens? My dad had a connection to the owner of New England Tech (name at the time now closed and called Lincoln College of Technology.) It was the year 2000 and none of us had any idea what these "for profit schools" were and he was just trying to find a way to get his son an "education". So instead of paying $24,000 for an "Occupational Associates degree", I was offered to only pay $8,000. Sounds like a real bargain right? Turns out this degree's accreditation is totally worthless and I couldn't even use these credits in a local community college. Plus who needs a degree in Architectural Drafting anyway? Well, lesson learned albeit a little late. I think that when one goes into a school and all the smiling faces are telling you good things as an 18 year old clueless kid, you are easily influenced. That is what these school's prey on in my opinion. They are looking for families who have little or no money and still want a degree. I only wish I had a way to give back this worthless degree and get my money and time back. So every time I see a story like this, or hear of schools like ITT Tech or DeVry, I cringe. Stay away people....far away!

Turgon

SteveLord wrote: »

How paper just did an article for local schools here. Basically, cost rising...pockets being lined, more students failing and left with debt.

here is article

Shocking drop out rate. Are you able to drop out of the debts if you bail on the studies? Looks like a racket to me hammering little people who really can't afford to take on anymore long term debts..

powerfool

While I think that people foolishly get themselves involved with these schools, they do serve their place. It takes responsibility. For instance, I went to one of these schools before I did my undergrad work for one year and it helped me get my MCSE on 2000. That is all I wanted and that is exactly what I received... the definition of commerce. Don't obligate yourself without knowledge, it is a bad idea. If you want a valid college degree and credit, don't go to one of these schools. However, if one of these schools offers you the ability to achieve what you wish and gives you an advantage over alternatives, then by all means, use them.

This forum has a lot of people that are trying to break into IT. Let me say, that you want to be in IT and be successful and earn a good living, you need to provide value to your employer and/or customers. That is how it works with any job. Degrees and certifications only play a role in offering credentials for your skills.

tpatt100

powerfool wrote: »

While I think that people foolishly get themselves involved with these schools, they do serve their place. It takes responsibility. For instance, I went to one of these schools before I did my undergrad work for one year and it helped me get my MCSE on 2000. That is all I wanted and that is exactly what I received... the definition of commerce. Don't obligate yourself without knowledge, it is a bad idea. If you want a valid college degree and credit, don't go to one of these schools. However, if one of these schools offers you the ability to achieve what you wish and gives you an advantage over alternatives, then by all means, use them.

This forum has a lot of people that are trying to break into IT. Let me say, that you want to be in IT and be successful and earn a good living, you need to provide value to your employer and/or customers. That is how it works with any job. Degrees and certifications only play a role in offering credentials for your skills.

I am pretty negative on anybody I know who decides to go to any school because they want to career change. These schools steer their advertising to those who are most naive about careers. Many of them advertise during the daytime when they are hoping to catch stay at home parents and or the unemployed. Those are the ones who are more than likely going to get government grants to attend the schools.

When I started into IT it was a hobby and I decided to start on certs it was a test fee and a book from Barnes and Nobels and a copy of Windows NT. Not a thousands of dollars training class.

Turgon

powerfool wrote: »

While I think that people foolishly get themselves involved with these schools, they do serve their place. It takes responsibility. For instance, I went to one of these schools before I did my undergrad work for one year and it helped me get my MCSE on 2000. That is all I wanted and that is exactly what I received... the definition of commerce. Don't obligate yourself without knowledge, it is a bad idea. If you want a valid college degree and credit, don't go to one of these schools. However, if one of these schools offers you the ability to achieve what you wish and gives you an advantage over alternatives, then by all means, use them.

This forum has a lot of people that are trying to break into IT. Let me say, that you want to be in IT and be successful and earn a good living, you need to provide value to your employer and/or customers. That is how it works with any job. Degrees and certifications only play a role in offering credentials for your skills.

Unfortunately the old adage that there is a sucker born every minute rings true here. It makes other people money at the expense of the suckers. People will say that individuals need to take more account of their personal responsibility to make wise choices in life. I accept that upto a point although there is a whole science called marketing who's mission it is to assess who can be convinced or coerced into making a purchase they dont need and then every possible resource will be used to ensure the decision is a 'no brainer' for the unwary. We call this the free market.

QHalo

djfunz wrote: »

This topic definitely strikes a nerve with me. I was 18 years old out of High School and had no idea what I wanted to do in life. So what happens? My dad had a connection to the owner of New England Tech (name at the time now closed and called Lincoln College of Technology.) It was the year 2000 and none of us had any idea what these "for profit schools" were and he was just trying to find a way to get his son an "education". So instead of paying $24,000 for an "Occupational Associates degree", I was offered to only pay $8,000. Sounds like a real bargain right? Turns out this degree's accreditation is totally worthless and I couldn't even use these credits in a local community college. Plus who needs a degree in Architectural Drafting anyway? Well, lesson learned albeit a little late. I think that when one goes into a school and all the smiling faces are telling you good things as an 18 year old clueless kid, you are easily influenced. That is what these school's prey on in my opinion. They are looking for families who have little or no money and still want a degree. I only wish I had a way to give back this worthless degree and get my money and time back. So every time I see a story like this, or hear of schools like ITT Tech or DeVry, I cringe. Stay away people....far away!

I have a hard time lumping DeVry in with ITT Tech though and not because I'm about to finish my degree at DeVry. ITT Tech is more of a trade school and not a university. I honestly don't find anything wrong with DeVry. The education has been worthwhile and I made the most out of it and its a check box for HR that has long been needed to be checked by me. If anyone thinks their BS/BA from a non-profit school or any school for that matter is going to magically open the doors for them, then they have another thing coming.

Turgon

QHalo wrote: »

If anyone thinks their BS/BA from a non-profit school or any school for that matter is going to magically open the doors for them, then they have another thing coming.

It might. It depends on who you are applying with for jobs. We dont have any Harvard grads on here working helpdesk, they are too busy interviewing for fabulous jobs, and when they get them, way too busy making money in white collar IT far, far away from the support grunt. In some quarters non profits are held in higher regard than for profits.

QHalo

It might is a big might. I'm sure there are some numbers out there of recent graduates with no jobs to go to and I agree that some schools, the top 25 names most likely are the ones where that might happen. However, lets not compare the pricing of going to one of those schools over a for-profit school. The link in this thread talked about a girl having 200k in debt after attending Northwestern. Great school and I'm sure her education was awesome but really 200k? She's a sociology major and more than likely relegated to working in the public sector making 40k a year if she's lucky.

Turgon

QHalo wrote: »

It might is a big might. I'm sure there are some numbers out there of recent graduates with no jobs to go to and I agree that some schools, the top 25 names most likely are the ones where that might happen. However, lets not compare the pricing of going to one of those schools over a for-profit school. The link in this thread talked about a girl having 200k in debt after attending Northwestern. Great school and I'm sure her education was awesome but really 200k? She's a sociology major and more than likely relegated to working in the public sector making 40k a year if she's lucky.

Top 25 graduates shouldn't have too many problems finding work with aegis of their Universities behind them. The rising burden of educational costs needs to be addressed in my opinion.

instant000

NetworkingStudent wrote: »

I don’t think this is enough!! My biggest beef with for profit colleges is that they don’t explain the difference between regional and non-regional accreditation.
...

Buyer be ware

You live and learn.

Exactly!

This is a humongous factor in whether or not you can transfer your schooling later!

djfunz

If one really reads into these Tech schools, the major problem is that they offer a bogus, worthless degree for ridiculous amounts of money. Then the recruiters sell this "degree" as the best thing since sliced bread backed by government dollars. One can skip classes 1/3 of the time, **** on exams and coast through the curriculum to get the said "degree". Community college, at least in the beginning of ones education, is a far superior value for the money.

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