Do not fluff your resume (redux)

I've previously expounded on this subject before, but I feel the need to do so again.

I just finished a phone interview with an applicant. Now since it's a phone interview, we play nice, we don't get very technical until you're here in person. We make the questions relevant to what you say you know.

One line in particular caught my attention:

Extensive experience in BGP,MPLS,TCP/IP,IP Routing

The line caught my attention because it was bolded. Now, the resume was what we were given from the staffing company, so I'm not sure if he bolded it or they did, but regardless, it served it's purpose.

I asked five questions:

1. How do you save the configuration on virtually any Cisco IOS device?

2. What protocol does MPLS use for it's label distribution

3. I want to peer two routers via eBGP, but I want to peer with their loopbacks. What command do I need to ensure is present in the neighbor configuration

Now, for the IGP's, since he didn't list a specific protocol, I asked which he was most comfortable with. He said OSPF.

4. What command do I use to display the ospf neighbors

5. Explain how the DR/BDR election works

He got the first question right.

And nothing else.

The resume was very impressive looking. Otherwise, he never would have gotten the phone interview. It took 10 minutes to expose the fraud, and the only reason it took that long was because I wasn't being a dick and cut him off while he was busy trying to apologize for not knowing the answers.

Do not fluff your resume, folks. I know times are tough and folks want a job, and that drives them to desperate measures, but in the network game at least, any interviewer worth their salt is going to ask you questions about what you say you know. If a company actually does manage to fall for the fluff, you're probably going to be looking for a job again shortly, as the company is comprised of idiots and isn't likely to survive.

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Comments

cmitchell_00

Yeah Mac_Addy & CodeBlox.... The resume is to get you through the door and rest is on you and if they like you; the end. I have in the interview in the past been very nervous and couldn't think but; that's life. Then, I know too that some of the newer switches use regular CAT 5 and GUI only which is an pain. I've been hearing the term router on an stick for years and in training but, I never used it outside of the Cisco training. Then, we had some hardware problems and I saw how it was setup in production about a 2 year's ago. I guess that's why I've been reading more about trunking and VLAN's for my QoS-VOIP stuff etc.; cool deal. You have three 3 exams for CCNP but, CCNA b4 anything else is needed. Dude... I can make cables but; I don't have to everyday since the cabling team performs those task so; If you don't perform those duties everyday you'll can lose them.

*The point I'm making out is that I see it all the time from CCIE's who can't config RAID or desktop guys who can't add users to AD. I find in this field it's about the survival of the fittest and how quick you resolve the issue so; who cares about a resume (just my thoughts).

onesaint

MAC_Addy wrote: »

I interviewed someone for a basic network technician position. They had CCNP listed on their resume, but not CCNA. I thought to myself, "OK, perhaps he listed CCNP since it's higher than CCNA he wouldn't list it", boy was I wrong. We had setup a phone interview, me and HR. I asked him basic questions on cabling and troubleshooting, he said that he had never made a cross-over cable and has never needed to, he also couldn't answer a question about what cable you needed to connect from a switch to a switch - though, to give him credit that a lot of newer switches will work with a regular straight-through cable I kinda let him off the hook... I then asked him (since he's a 'CCNP') if he knew how to configure router on a stick... he said that he'd never heard of it. I then proceeded to ask him when he got his CCNP, how long did he study and which route did he take? He said that he studied for about 4 weeks and took the exam at his local college. I asked him, which exam did you take first? He replied, the CCNP? I also asked if he had any other Cisco certifications, he said "no, I went straight for CCNP". I then didn't want to continue to any further and put his resume in the shredder.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't ROaS is a CCNA level topology? I think you were too nice to that candidate (and wasted your time). I see posts like this and am think whoa, this isn't fluff, it's out right lying.

Honestly, reading over this thread I think oh, man I haven't worked with Windows servers in a few years, but it's on my resume from the last company I worked at. Am I fluffing my resume because I can't hit every detail?

Fluff is when someone worked with Server 2003 and put down 2008r2. Maybe stretching things a tad. These examples are ludicrous. Maybe I'm just humble, but I wouldn't put something on my resume if I didn't at least have a fundamental understanding of the technology behind it. Granted my memory isn't always the best, but I compensate with tools like Evernote and writing a wiki to document procedures I need and use, even if rarely.

On the other hand, I think interviewing the lower to mid level positions for detailed knowledge is passe for the current work force, unless the position is for a specialist. Wide spanning skills are required more, and more often. Interviewing for aptitude, a desire to excel, and fundamental knowledge of concepts should be the norm. Anyone can be trained, ambition to learn and do more in the position is harder to find. Granted this is from a JOAT's perspective and not a hiring authority.

MAC_Addy

onesaint wrote: »

I think you were too nice to that candidate (and wasted your time).

That's me in a nutshell, unfortunately. I am too nice most of the time. Unless someone is completely lying to me, I am probably your worst enemy for life. Once someone has lied to me, you're done. I could definitely tell that this guy was lying out of his butt... But, since HR was with me I politely ended the interview. However, I did mention at the end of the interview that there was no chance that he could have the CCNP without having CCNA first, it seemed like it didn't even phase him. He was just like "Oh, alright... OK". I wanted to ask more questions, but it seemed as though he didn't even know anything about networking in the slightest and it would have backfired on me.

And yes, ROaS in definitely a CCNA topic. It's something very basic and isn't hard to learn at all. If he actually had CCNP he'd know all about it. But he didn't even have a clue. I asked "Do you know what Router on a stick is?", he just said... "router on a stick...? I've never even heard of that".

MAC_Addy

CodeBlox wrote: »

hahaha, man, I can answer all of that stuff! As you said with the newer switches, they can use either as I believe Auto MDIX kicks in. My 2950s do not support auto mdix so it's required that I use crossover cables that I have made Went to lowes and bought a few hundred feet of cable and a crimper tool just to practice making cables.

Ouch... I feel your pain! I'm doing exactly the same thing... I have 4 2950's, going through STP and VTP labs right now. I just made 12 yesterday - that's all my poor fingers could handle.

Cables01.jpg

erpadmin

MAC_Addy wrote: »

However, I did mention at the end of the interview that there was no chance that he could have the CCNP without having CCNA first, it seemed like it didn't even phase him.

I think its interesting that one needs a CCNA to be a CCNP, yet to be a CCIE, you are not required to have a CCNA/CCNP.

Also, the whole one-armed router (RoAS) jazz had to be explained to me during our F5 load balancer implementation. That is definitey something that would only be known in the networking/routing realm. Not every IT pro would know what that is unless he is configuring Cisco routers/switches for a living.

pcgizzmo

So, I'm curious as to what you think about this.

My title has been network admin for 12 years. In truth I've done everything. I'm a jack of all trades but a master of none. Some of the responses I have read here have given me second thought though on what I would put on my resume.

I've worked with Cisco switches, routers and ASA firewalls. I would put that on my resume but here is the kicker. I don't do it every day. In a business environment you don't have to install routers, firewalls and do VLAN's and QOS on a daily basis unless you work for a really large company. It's pretty much set and forget unless you have a need to tweak something.

Over the years I've made many changes to all of the above added VLANs, QOS, MPLS circuits to our warehouse and rules to our firewall but if you asked me point blank in an interview a question that I didn't do on a regular basis I might not be able to answer it 100%

Why or why should I not put this on my resume? I'm certainly capable of doing it and I know where to look if I don't know the answer. That's half the battle. We have a CCIE that we hire on occasion that has to look stuff up every once in a while. No one can possibly remember everything or the syntax for that matter.

Forsaken_GA

erpadmin wrote: »

I think its interesting that one needs a CCNA to be a CCNP, yet to be a CCIE, you are not required to have a CCNA/CCNP.

It's because the CCIE came first. If they'd have made CCNP (and therefore CCNA) a prereq for CCIE, that would have made recert a royal pain in the rear. For a number of years, passing the Written or Lab didn't renew Professional and Associate level certs either, but Cisco was nice enough to change that when they moved over to their new certification tracking system.

Forsaken_GA

pcgizzmo wrote: »

I've worked with Cisco switches, routers and ASA firewalls. I would put that on my resume but here is the kicker. I don't do it every day. In a business environment you don't have to install routers, firewalls and do VLAN's and QOS on a daily basis unless you work for a really large company. It's pretty much set and forget unless you have a need to tweak something.

I work for a service provider. Consequently, I interview for a service provider. And in this world, that kind of stuff *is* an every day thing. So if you're asking to do that for a living, it's not unreasonable to expect that you have some foundational skills and are capable of communicating them.

Over the years I've made many changes to all of the above added VLANs, QOS, MPLS circuits to our warehouse and rules to our firewall but if you asked me point blank in an interview a question that I didn't do on a regular basis I might not be able to answer it 100%

I don't tend to get deeply technical. I'm not going to ask questions about SoO in an interview for a guy who says he knows MPLS. If you say you've had extensive training in MPLS, however, I am going to expect you to be able to tell me one of the three protocols that MPLS uses to distribute labels. It's a core part of the technology, and I'm asking for it's name, not the nuances of configuration.

Likewise, I expect someone who says they're strong with OSPF to be able to name me at least 2 LSA types and reasonably communicate what they're for. If you don't know it, and you put it on your resume, but you're going into an interview where it is in use (and our job description spells out what we work with quite clearly), then you're either a fool for putting something you don't know on your resume, or you're a fool for not brushing up on the basics before you walk into the interview. In the one case, I'm going to think you're a liar, in the latter, I'm going to think you don't have good judgement. Neither leaves me with a positive view of employment potential.

Why or why should I not put this on my resume? I'm certainly capable of doing it and I know where to look if I don't know the answer. That's half the battle. We have a CCIE that we hire on occasion that has to look stuff up every once in a while. No one can possibly remember everything or the syntax for that matter.

If I had a CCIE interviewing and he couldn't answer the questions I posted at the beginning of this thread, I'd round file his resume as well. You are not expected to know everything, but you are expected to have a firm base. If you don't have one or can't demonstrate it, you're disqualifying yourself and wasting my time. If you do and can, then the more you can show me, the more likely I am to hire you (this assumes you don't have a personality that's going to cause issues within the team... that will always be a deal killer, no matter how brilliant you are)

cmitchell_00

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

It's because the CCIE came first. If they'd have made CCNP (and therefore CCNA) a prereq for CCIE, that would have made recert a royal pain in the rear. For a number of years, passing the Written or Lab didn't renew Professional and Associate level certs either, but Cisco was nice enough to change that when they moved over to their new certification tracking system.

I really think it's an pain to recertify every three years or up cert to another level. Then, they have added more certs since CCNA was the first track. However, we can start this matter in another thread-blog since this is about resume fluff.

blargoe

CodeBlox wrote: »

lol, just curios. What kind of responses did he give to your questions about routers and switches?

Something to the effect of "one passes packets and the other is a hub", after stammering for 10-15 seconds

ptilsen

N2IT wrote: »

I think it's still the most important thing, as for as getting a job.

I still have to disagree on this one, Patrick. I've got nothing against professional networking, but ultimately I feel that a well written resume that represents an individual with relevant skills, experience, and credentials is what gets someone interviews. Good interviewing skills and the ability to back up and elaborate what's on that resume gets someone a job. Networking can be another way to get the interview and go the front of the interview line, but to me that doesn't make it the "most important" thing or even necessary, in some cases.

I've had way too many interviews and way too many job offers from companies that I had no connection to for me to really think of networking as critical. I, for one, would rather search for job candidates that meet the needs of the position for which I'm hiring than hire out my friends or acquaintances. If I happen to know someone who fits the position well, I'll direct them to apply, but I don't necessarily expect my employer to hire or even interview based on that.

pogue

Sorry for raising this thread from the dead.. But I figured I had to address a little bit of the snobbery.

Did I take and pass my CCNP level exams? Yes.

Do I remember how every little thing about BGP and OSPF work? Nope.

Have I worked in a CCNP level capacity in a real network yet? Nope.

Have I outstripped 95% of the people I have worked with at my last 5 jobs within a month, whether they knew more than me when I began? Yup.

Do I heavily lab my weak points at home once I find out what I have to accomplish at work? Yup.

Could I do a telephone interview right now and give specific commands to implement 802.1x, private vlans, iBGP, eBGP? Nope.

Was I able to do so on the exam? Yup.

Would I be able to do any of the above with a 5 minute refresh skim through the relevant documentation? Yup.

Now, to be truthful, I don't talk myself up big time on my resume.. But I DO know that I have been passed up for jobs that I would have been perfectly capable of doing after a few days in the trenches, and that I would have surpassed 95% of the people in within a month. The reason why people talk themselves up is because with the current job market, they HAVE to in order to have ANY chance at getting the job.

I lost my job twice within the last 3 years because the contract either expired or the company went out of business. At the one which went out of business, I knew NOTHING about SNMP and Netflow (NMS) when I started. 3 months later, I had closed out 75% of the tickets as one man, part of a 6 man team. It is what it is... Some people just have a better feel for the technology and how it sticks together, though they may not be able to quote all the relevant commands during the interview.

Sorry if I sound a little bitchy. With the economy as it is, it is definitely an employer's market. Everyone is expected to have CCNP level knowledge in both Juniper and Cisco, know how to configure every IPS/IDS/Firewall on the market.. "Oh Yeah!!! If you have CCNP level knowledge, that's all well and good, but you don't have RHCSA-level knowledge in Linux, so you won't POSSIBLY be able to figure out the Linux appliance that we use to implement our NAC solution, so have a nice day and come back when you have every cert under the sun..."

Information just doesn't "stick" with me the same way it does with some other people. Put me in the fire, I will figure it out.

I had never heard of HSRP until a few years ago. My boss hired a local CCNP consultant to come in and figure out an issue that we had with getting the failover to work properly.

He couldn't figure it out. I did. Took a little bit to read up on the theory behind the protocol... Turns out the issue was with how we had labbed it up, and Spanning Tree was interfering with the failover because we were using another switch to connect to the router because the router only had a single uplink port. Spanning Tree held down the link for a certain time period, and once that issue was allowed for, the config could be tweaked to work as expected.

This was before I even renewed my CCNA from 1998.

I really do feel like I have to be an expert in all the technologies I stated just in order to be fairly assured of keeping a job in this market, let alone moving up in my career.

Russ

Iristheangel

@Pogue - I think this thread was less about people not remembering every detail and more about people advertising themselves as experts or having extensive experience in XYZ and falsely advertising themselves. You may not remember every detail about BGP but if you're putting on your resume that you have extensive BGP experience or skills, it's your fault when you get drilled in a technical interview. It's not snobbery to want to hire an candidate that is 90% honest on their resume.

Also, your point about passing the CCNP but not remembering a lot of the details. No one is expected to remember EVERY detail but that's the problem with taking the CCNP without touching the technology professionally or having experience: You're going to experience a greater degree of knowledge fade than someone who is in the field and working on the technologies. Of course, you can constantly lab and keep your knowledge fresh until you do actually get the position to be getting your hands dirty with the technology. Sadly, most people do not do this.

Mishra

I ask people who say they have Exchange experience what services does Exchange install in Windows.

Although it's kind of a memorization thing, it tells me if you really have experience administering the machines or at least studying it.

I ask a lot of questions in an interview but I don't expect a 100%. Maybe only 50%. If I can't piece together your experience, usually I don't want you. That means if you are researching fixes and implementing them, but never going back to actually understand what you just did, then I can tell.

pogue

Iristheangel wrote: »

@Pogue - I think this thread was less about people not remembering every detail and more about people advertising themselves as experts or having extensive experience in XYZ and falsely advertising themselves. You may not remember every detail about BGP but if you're putting on your resume that you have extensive BGP experience or skills, it's your fault when you get drilled in a technical interview. It's not snobbery to want to hire an candidate that is 90% honest on their resume.

Also, your point about passing the CCNP but not remembering a lot of the details. No one is expected to remember EVERY detail but that's the problem with taking the CCNP without touching the technology professionally or having experience: You're going to experience a greater degree of knowledge fade than someone who is in the field and working on the technologies. Of course, you can constantly lab and keep your knowledge fresh until you do actually get the position to be getting your hands dirty with the technology. Sadly, most people do not do this.

Iris,

Again, sorry if I am a little bitter. The start of my pretty bad last three years was being passed up for that NAC job in my home town.. It is a VERY rural town, and I doubt they were able to find many candidates within 30 miles... I didn't even get a chance to sit down for a technical interview.. They were looking for a CCNP level candidate with RHCSA level Linux skills. If I could have gotten that position, I would have been able to stay in my home in Florida and not have to move my family to first Seattle, then Colorado, while paying for storage for my household goods for the last 18 months...

I have absolutely no doubt that I would have been their best person at that level within months, but I never got the chance. I promised myself it won't happen again, and I guess I got a little sensitive to hear a hiring manager go on and on about how so and so didn't know whatever....

I know for a fact I've seen techs with lesser ability in positions that were questionable at best, and it's a little frustrating to be a tech that never met a problem he couldn't solve, and to be struggling in this job market.

I do get your point about people overselling themselves. The problem is, I never oversell myself, and it is hard even getting to the interview stage.

Russ