is the market that bad???

noobsrevenge · May 2012

MrBishop wrote: »

Nice trick, if you're ever in a pinch!

Ummmm wut? I thought the penny trick was a good way to start a fire and he was joking. Need an additional person to chime in. =\

MrBishop · May 2012

LOL, you're probably right noobsrevenge

jmritenour · May 2012

Once upon a time, there was a young man who really wanted to join the circus. The problem is, he didn't have any special skills. He wasn't an acrobat, he was scared of lions and tigers, and he was scary as hell with clown makeup on. But being part of the circus was his dream, and for years, he kept following the circus around, hoping that one day, they'd finally take him in.

A few years later, he sent his father a letter saying that his persistence had finally paid off, and he was now a part of the circus. He invited his family to come see him when the circus returned to his hometown next month.

The day finally came when the circus arrived, and beaming with pride, the young man's mother and father went to the first circus performance, eagerly looking for their son. All the acts came and went, but they never saw him. A bit disappointed, they started to leave, and as they were walking out, they heard an excited voice yell "Mom! Dad! Over here!"

They looked down the midway and saw their son looking somewhat filthy and holding a shovel. As they started walking toward him, the smell was atrocious, but he was smiling ear to ear. A bit puzzled, his father asked "Son, what exactly are you doing?"

"Well, dad, I take care of the elephants. I feed them, I scrub them down, I keep their pen clean. It's not easy, but I'm good at it!"

Shaking his head in disappointment, his father said "Son, you've busted your ass for all this time, and you're making a living shoveling elephant crap?!"

The young man smiled even wider, and replied "But dad, don't you see - I've finally joined the circus."

Plantwiz · May 2012

noobsrevenge wrote: »

Ummmm wut? I thought the penny trick was a good way to start a fire and he was joking. Need an additional person to chime in. =\

It was done with fuse boxes. They way folks are today, I would NOT advise anyone to try it just because it was done once.

Back to the topic though, ok!

Taking a job for $8....

Iristheangel · May 2012

I'm dating a med student so I'm going to use a doctor as a somewhat comparable situation.

Becoming a doctor takes a 4 year undergrad degree and 4-5 more years in med school. After med school, the average doctor has about 270K in debt and they start residency which lasts for 3-4 years. During residency, they get paid anywhere from 30-50K a year. Sometimes, med students can postpone their loan payments until after residency but depending on their loan terms, many have to start paying right away. After taxes and loan payments, $8/hr would seem awesome.

Good thing we're not doctors

networker050184 and others brought up that they would never start in IT at $8/hr since it's a professional field that requires education. I definitely see your side and if anyone here can start for more than $8/hr, then go for it. $8/hr for anyone with experience is ridiculous. Depending on the location and how competitive it is, some newbies might not be given a better option. Moving might or might not be an option. For those people that don't have a choice, there are jobs like these. Think of this as your "residency."

Plantwiz · May 2012

@Iristheangel,

Great analogy. I was thinking of this as well as I have a few friends who become docs and basically worked insane hours and were in school for close to a decade to essentially, start at the bottom of the food chain in the medical world.

I'm still puzzled by the commentary and what sounds so hostile toward someone who may or may not want that job. I get that many here don't want it. No biggie. But to criticize others for looking for an opening or simply a way in is pretty silly. What if this job were at Microsoft? Obviously, it isn't, but what if it were? So you slum it for a couple years and transfer up, right?

If the rate is too low and NO ONE applies, then no one applies and the company is able to re-evaluate what they are offering. It is entirely possible, that the job is posted as a mere requirement. They have a candidate in mind (say it's a current employee's child or such) and their teen or college student wants a summer job. However, HR requires that all jobs be posted publicly before an offer can be made...so this may simply be a way to meet that requirement.

If the job isn't to your liking, simply pass on it and keep looking. And just a simply note, this will be the last thread that will go on about bashing wages for entry-level positions. The thread is becomming unproductive and it is stirring away from the IT certification focus of this website forum. The thread could have been removed right after it posted, but was left possibly bring out some good conversations. Wages depend on several factors and none of us here can say if it is a fair wage or not. Comparing it to McDonalds is not real productive either. Frankly, if I were to eat there (and I haven't in decades) I would want the folks handling my food to know what they are doing and not contaminate it, although I don't think they cook anything anylonger...it is all nuked. Resetting passwords or plugging in inputs or monitors is hardly skilled labor.

NetworkingStudent · May 2012

Plantwiz wrote: »

@Iristheangel,

Great analogy. I was thinking of this as well as I have a few friends who become docs and basically worked insane hours and were in school for close to a decade to essentially, start at the bottom of the food chain in the medical world.

I'm still puzzled by the commentary and what sounds so hostile toward someone who may or may not want that job. I get that many here don't want it. No biggie. But to criticize others for looking for an opening or simply a way in is pretty silly. What if this job were at Microsoft? Obviously, it isn't, but what if it were? So you slum it for a couple years and transfer up, right?

If the rate is too low and NO ONE applies, then no one applies and the company is able to re-evaluate what they are offering. It is entirely possible, that the job is posted as a mere requirement. They have a candidate in mind (say it's a current employee's child or such) and their teen or college student wants a summer job. However, HR requires that all jobs be posted publicly before an offer can be made...so this may simply be a way to meet that requirement.

If the job isn't to your liking, simply pass on it and keep looking. And just a simply note, this will be the last thread that will go on about bashing wages for entry-level positions. The thread is becomming unproductive and it is stirring away from the IT certification focus of this website forum. The thread could have been removed right after it posted, but was left possibly bring out some good conversations. Wages depend on several factors and none of us here can say if it is a fair wage or not. Comparing it to McDonalds is not real productive either. Frankly, if I were to eat there (and I haven't in decades) I would want the folks handling my food to know what they are doing and not contaminate it, although I don't think they cook anything anylonger...it is all nuked. Resetting passwords or plugging in inputs or monitors is hardly skilled labor.

+1 I agree
I was offered a job from recruiting company that wanted to pay 8.50 an hour, but they couldn’t guarantee any type of hours. Additionally, they couldn’t even give me a contract length. Moreover, the recruiting company wouldn’t even give me a job description. Although, they wanted me to sign up pretty quickly. I never took the job, because it was below what I need to make to even survive, and I had a non-IT job that paid more than what they were offering.

I have seen posting for jobs that don’t offer spectacular benefits or pay. Some pay minimum wage, others are 3 month contracts, and others don’t even offer benefits at all. I passed on these and applied to other jobs. To be honest, I haven’t encountered any other jobs that offered minimum wage after passing on the job I mentioned above. You need to be honest with yourself and know what you can and can’t take when it comes to these jobs.

There is so much more than pay that you need to evaluate before taking a job. You need to look at culture, advancement, health care, benefits, drive time, location, and other things I’m sure I haven’t mentioned.

I think $8.00 is pretty low for IT work, however; the pay is a direct reflection of the skillset and value the individual is adding to the company . Do we need these jobs? Yes, because everyone needs to start somewhere, and we all have different roads we need to travel to make it in IT.

powerfool · May 2012

$8/hr... #%$^#!!!!

Seriously, though... if someone wanted to pay me that much... it is called 100% remote work and when I can get to it. If they want me to come in, it is $50/hr for a minimum of two hours... and that is a hugely discounted rate based on the regular work they would be providing.

Heck, I made that much as a shift manager at Burger King when I was 17!

drkat · May 2012

@Planetwiz

I'm gonna have to disagree. Lets *not* make a few assumptions with regard to the job posting.

1. I live in Rochester NY. I am able to determine a living wage for the area - $8/hr is what a walmart employee makes in this area, possibly they make more. Last I checked they made $10.75 in the Lube/Filter department.

2. I congratulate you on not eating at McDonalds in decades, However we could use McDonalds, Walmart, or what have you in comparsion from IT to "unskilled labor"

Fact of the matter is this, a company looking for a possible candidate, whether entry level or experienced - should not attempt to lowball the applicant. The applicant I'm pretty sure is not looking for IT work to make a Walmart wage, they chose to go into the field for whatever reasons and I'm sure money was one of them. Just because the guy has no professional experience doesnt mean he doesnt know about computers or technology; Most folks applying for IT positions do it as a hobby - so maybe he has a cluster running in his bedroom or what have you?? We cant make the assumption he is some guy walking off the street (in a dont be a menace stylee) and asking if they have jobs? - That would be up to the potential hiring manager to decide.

The post wasnt really a ***** session - it's more of a political stance. I'm a blue collar IT worker, whether I work in an office or not. I think that IT is a skillset that deserves a better wage than "just enough" and that this country (USA) and big business is taking that away at all costs just to save money. It's sickening to think that HP is laying off 27,000 people... thats 27,000 families that may be evicted, that may be without food... all because of cutting cost. The market is strong in some areas, but unfortunately where I live -- you have a better shot at hustling the streets or ...

Seems everyone is lookin at it from a aerial view, when the real situation is, this could be you? or your brother or sister or mother or father who is an established professional and loses everything, and when they go looking for work they get offered $8/hr... Sure we dont know if the employer is just looking for part-time, or a high school kid looking for extra scratch, but this is the normal in my area. We're seeing ad's requesting expert level experience in MS Server and Networks and XYZ technologies with 10 yrs experience for $30K a year... it's sad that our profession is easily relatable to some jack monkey flipping burgers while studying to be a lawyer.. see but when he's done.. he'll be a lawyer; when we're done.. we're still in the same boat.

Guess maybe our humanatarian views differ; but we can kill this thread it has indeed been unproductive.

jdubb45 · May 2012

It's Rochester, NY. You can find a place @ $350/month. No you don't have to live near Clifton ave, or Genese st to find that price! It may not be Brighton, Greece, or Henrietta but hey. A Single person @ $8 = $260 after taxes | 5 week month = $1300 | 4 week month = 1040. | Very livable. I have friends that do it now. It's better than nothing, plus you're in IT and not at Walmart.

***On a funnier note you could collect scrap metal or cans to supplement. I miss the $.05 cans Charlotte throws everything away. I used to pay the gas for my car with it.****

jdubb45 · May 2012

One thing I notice about this techexam forum is that a lot of people are not distinguishing between engineers and management and the pay gap that exist. Hypothetically if $8/hr is going on now for the entry level and some intermediate IT positions, what is in store for the future? Why would somebody want to continue the grind (certifications, exp..etc) for lower wages? Why not make money first and then play with your "hobby" on your own time.

My Take:

Person A: Goes to school $20k+, BS CS cert track - IT -MCITP/CCNP/A+,Net+,Security+ then InfoSec-CISSP after 15 yrs of bull, and yes people in these forums preach this! etc/countless hours of bs; job - no exp $15,000/yr start - Sr.Admin maybe in 10yrs

Person B: Goes to school $20k+, MBA - IT management or IS cert track - ITIL/PMP/CISSP based on being over an IS department job - no exp $36,000+/yr start Sr Management approx. 5 yrs --> most banks, and fortune 500 consider all HR, PM's etc Sr. management.

Person C: Goes to school $20K+ BS CS cert track - java/C++/PHP job - no exp $50,000/yr start 80k+ after 3yrs - Upper level doesn't care makes enough money

Salary Entry level Proof:

https://atsprod.geico.com/psc/atsprod/EMPLOYEE/HRMS/c/HRS_HRAM.HRS_CE.GBL?JobOpeningId=2313&SiteId=1&Page=HRS_CE_JOB_DTL&

http://engineering.thingamajob.com/jobs/Virginia/Entry-Level-Java-Developer/2561632

http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/Jobs/JobDetails.aspx?Job_DID=JHT64Z6DXS2X2XB0KQS&siteid=cbindeed&ipath=EXIND

and the list goes on! It's definitely a developers market these days!

Person

Screw college - takes out $20K puts in gold/ETF/Oil etc 4 yrs gets to play net engineer/sysadmin for fun instead of for a living.

My $.02

Legacy User · May 2012

Id take the $8 dollars if i was 19 and did some training course with linux. I'll learn, cert up and get out.

prtech · May 2012

I would've taken that job last year when I was looking for one. I have a Cybersecurity degree and a CCNA, and I applied at Staples. That's how desperate I was just to get my foot in the door. I had zero IT and customer service experience.

Legacy User · May 2012

Few months ago was considering taking an unpaid internship working 4 ten hr days at my full time and 3 days dedicated to the internship. he liked me but needed someone 5days a week. You'd be surprised what people are willing to do to get in the business esp after striking out so many times..

CompuTron99 · May 2012

$8.00 / hr is low for even Rochester. Maybe the company if trying to pick up new college grads.

jdubb45 · May 2012

http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/77983-how-overcome-years-experience-requirements-when-applying-positions.html

hamlin69 · May 2012

8$ an hour? I just turned down a computer tech job. They offered me 16$ an hour. I am not working in the IT field right now but at my current accounting job I am making over 40k a year(roughly 23$ an hour). 16$ was a low ball offer IMO cause I am new. Most computer tech jobs here in Thunder Bay,ontario are minimum 20$ an hour. I told the guy since I only have A+I would accept it but if I got more certs I want 20$ an hour. He declined. I didn't really care. I expect to go down in pay starting a career but I will never go that low.

networkjutsu · May 2012

Wow, $20/hour for A+! Wish I made money like that when I was only A+ with no experience. Made $20/hr+ after three years of experience. Though, one year of that experience would not probably be considered by others as experience.

healthyboy · May 2012

I am stuck in a dead end job with no salary increase or career developement, yeah the market is bad i better hop.

drkat · May 2012

jdubb45 wrote: »

It's Rochester, NY. You can find a place @ $350/month. No you don't have to live near Clifton ave, or Genese st to find that price! It may not be Brighton, Greece, or Henrietta but hey. A Single person @ $8 = $260 after taxes | 5 week month = $1300 | 4 week month = 1040. | Very livable. I have friends that do it now. It's better than nothing, plus you're in IT and not at Walmart.

***On a funnier note you could collect scrap metal or cans to supplement. I miss the $.05 cans Charlotte throws everything away. I used to pay the gas for my car with it.****

$350 for a studio off university maybe...? not in the past 10 years?? - even renting on Lyell is gonna run you approx $500/month for 2 bedroom. If you look in Henrietta at a complex (Wedgewood for instance) is still $575 with income requirements.. so sure if You can qualify for low-income then go for it. I remember living on North Goodman and still paying $495 a month for a small two bedroom on top of a restaurant

Clifton Ave?? Clinton or Clifford maybe?? no Clifton Avenue, maybe Clifton street in bulls head

I have no idea where you're getting figures from?

Me: I have $2100 in bills a month so you're falling a bit short on the pay there... Now if I drove a 94 buick and had cheap insurance, no cable etc and no kids then sure... I could live on it... and operative word is live... but who really wants to?

MrRedHat · May 2012

I have to admit $8/hr is low pay, but if you’re someone starting out with no experience like I did, I think it can be an opportunity.

When I started working in IT, I started at $10/hr more than a decade ago. It wasn’t even a full-time job. The most I could work was 15 hours per week. If I went over 15 hours per week they would cut my hours in half, but double my pay. This was to get around the union that required full benefits for anyone working more than 15 hours per week. The pay sucked, but I figured it would give me some work experience.

While working there I would send out resume and after resume. No one would ever call me. Eventually an IT consulting company called me back and we had an interview. They seemed happy with me, but they wanted me to come in and work for free for two week to see if I knew what I said I knew. They told me this was because they got burned so much in the past from IT techs. Everyone told me that I was an idiot to work for free for two weeks, but I did it anyway (I had nothing to lose).

During the two weeks, the president of the company drove me from client site to client site watching everything I did. After the two weeks he said he liked what he saw and hired me full time.

After working full time for a year they sold it to another IT consulting company. I didn't get along well with the new owners so I quite to work to get a desk job as an IT director. Three years passed at my new job and that company was sold to a huge corporation and I was given my walking papers. Finding myself out a job, I decided to start my own IT consulting company. My non-compete expired three years earlier, so I had no ethical issues contacting all of my old clients. All of them remembered me and I was able to talk half of them into coming over to my company. A year later I was able to snag the other half because the other IT Consulting company went out of business.

If I would have never taken that $8/hr job, I would have never gotten the experience to get the job I have now. I doubt that original IT consulting company would have hired me (which is basically my company now) if I didn't have at least some work experience.

If you’re someone really green with no experience and live at home with your parents, it could be a good stepping stone.

whatthehell · June 2012

I totally agree with the concept of "proving oneself", but I also feel that some companies feel that the market is very soft and they are able to get some decent people for cheap. In my experience, whatever someone starts out at is extremely important, especially in the corporate arena, as getting any kind of decent raise is proving to be harder and harder. At least from my experience, and many other friends in the SoCal area, corporate entities that are doing well provide raises, though minimal, on an annual basis, claiming that the economy is slow and that is all we can offer (basically saying take it or leave).

Luckily the market seems to be getting a bit better, as I see many more tech positions opening at more realistic starting salaries.
Be wary and careful, my fellow brothers and sisters in nerdom, as there are many companies wishing to take advantage of us!

Plantwiz · June 2012

@whatthehell,

How exactly does a company take advantage of 'us'?

If you don't want the job, or don't find it fitting of your ability why would you apply in the first place?

OPEN:
This whole thread seems to be very split. However, the simple answer is simply don't apply if this gig doesn't measure up to what you want. The point several folks were trying to make is don't completely ridicule the posting...it may be perfect for someone. AND if no one applies, the ball is back in the companies court to evaluate if they wish to re-post with different criteria or pull the offer or let it sit and wait for the right person.

Back to whatthehell though,
Why does this take advantage of 'us'? I don't see this ad taking advantage of me or anyone else, so I would like to explain that comment.

is the market that bad???

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