Pricing for Surface Pro Announced

Iristheangel

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shodown

Interesting item. Right now I have a macbook pro 15 and 13 inch. I'm getting sick of having to run VMware to run all my windows only apps. I may give this a test run if I can get a USB to serial converter to work. I'm also curious how it can handle telepresnce and other items while doing other task

Iristheangel

Agreed, Shodown. When I buy mine on the 9th, I'll give it a good review doing practical networking-oriented tasks with it and post a full review. I'll probably test Jabber softphone, Putty, create a Visio, etc on it and record the whole thing so you can all see. I've been hearing mixed-reviews about the other Tablet-laptop hybrids out there so I've been holding off on buying any of them until I try the Surface. Ironically, I think MS will probably do it better than their hardware partners because they've been working on tweaking it a lot longer as opposed to a lot of the other products that feel somewhat "rushed" to production and the Wacom digitizer looks pretty nice.

RomBUS

"Too rich for my blood"

GAngel

RomBUS wrote: »

"Too rich for my blood"

Its meant for enterprises though the RT is for home users.
We'll be replacing a bunch of of dell and ipad fleet with them as those things are almost useless for productivity.

RobertKaucher

ptilsen wrote: »

I'm really disappointed. I think I will wait till next gen. My laptop has 12GB of RAM and my desktop 16GB. If I'm going to buy a laptop masquerading as a tablet, I want reasonable specs. I feel like 4GB of RAM is cutting corners, an I really need more in my everyday use.

With 4GB of RAM and keyboard not included, I want it to cost $600. For $1,000, it should come with 8-12GB, touch cover, the pen, and Office.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I can't imagine going back to a PC without at least 8GB of RAM. I open everything and leave it open. I multi-task. I need multiple cores, SSD, and lots of RAM -- even on an 11-12'' screen.

All this being said, I think Surface did what it needed to. It raised the bar. What I'm seeing is that most of the OEMs are coming out with comparably good products. I don't think MS will lose money here, but we don't have an iPad killer. At best, it will stem the tide of Android/iOS tablets replacing Windows laptops and tablets.

I've got a Surface RT and I love it. I use the Type Cover with it and it's, at least for me, the perfect tablet that can do light duty laptop type stuff. I have no illusions of developing with Visualstudio or do anything other than word processing/media consumption on it. It's a greate companion device and that is what the Surface Pro is supposed to be as well but with the added benefit of running regular Windows apps. Not to your point, who wants to pay $1000 for a companion device?

I was really excited about the Surface Pro initially but once I really started to think about it, I just could not justify spending nearly what I did on my laptop which has 12 GB RAM, an i7, and a 256 GB SSD.

And I completely agree with you on the iPad killer statement. But it really could be if they can just get some of the weak points corrected. And when I say that I don't mean the Surface specifically but any of these hybrid type systems. I really think we are going to look back in 5 years and think the iPad, Kindle Fire, and the strict tablet type devices were the transitional form and the hybrid devices are what we really wanted all along.

Everyone

I love my Surface RT. Still haven't decided if I want to spend the money on a Pro or not. My wife really wants one, my first idea was to give her the RT and get a Pro for myself. Might still do that.

DevilWAH

Iristheangel wrote: »

Ironically, I think MS will probably do it better than their hardware partners because they've been working on tweaking it a lot longer as opposed to a lot of the other products that feel somewhat "rushed" to production and the Wacom digitizer looks pretty nice.

But this has always been the whole Point of the Surface to show what is possible, and give the other manufactures something to aspire to. how the other hardware manufactures get behind Windows 8 tablets will determined the success of Microsoft tablet attempt rather than how well the surface its self does. I would like to have one, but you could get an IPAD and a Laptop for similar cash.

ptilsen

RobertKaucher wrote: »

But it really could be if they can just get some of the weak points corrected. And when I say that I don't mean the Surface specifically but any of these hybrid type systems. I really think we are going to look back in 5 years and think the iPad, Kindle Fire, and the strict tablet type devices were the transitional form and the hybrid devices are what we really wanted all along.

I agree. I think a generation or two from now, Surface will be even thinner, priced reasonably, and plug into a dock to replace mainstream desktops. The way things are now, I still feel I need four devices -- phone, tablet, laptop, desktop. They are supplementing each other, not replacing, and IMO Surface and other hybrids have the potential to replace 2-3 of those devices.

On the other hand, predictions of the demise of the desktop have been mostly wrong for a long time. Laptops now really have the power to replace the vast majority of desktops, but you still see laptop owners with them. Desktop sales are down, but hardly out, and for manufacturers it's probably much easier to maintain a reasonable margin on desktop computers since they require basically no engineering or support compared to anything more portable. I suspect that even a few years from now, we'll still have all of these devices. Desktops, laptops, hybrids, tablets, phablets, phones, and wearable computers may all coexist in a spectrum of power/portability for the next five or ten years.

Iristheangel

I agree with you, Ptilsen, on the desktop not dying but the need has diminished. I'll always have a desktop at my home with top-of-the-line specs for gaming, VMs, and primary recreational horsepower but I definitely don't need a desktop at work. I could also pay for a iPad OR an Ultrabook with similar specs for the price of the Surface, but I can't buy BOTH for the same price nor do I want to haul around both unless the combination of the two would still remain under 2 pounds. I'm tired of hauling around backpacks, carrying 10+ pounds worth of basic equipment, and reading books off my monitor. The way I see it, I'm paying $20 more for a "Mac Air" with a higher resolution screen that can turn into an "iPad" on demand when I just want to read books. If people don't think there is a market for that kind of thing, I'll refer them to the same people that thought the Mac Air and Ipad wouldn't succeed.

RobertKaucher

ptilsen wrote: »

On the other hand, predictions of the demise of the desktop have been mostly wrong for a long time. Laptops now really have the power to replace the vast majority of desktops, but you still see laptop owners with them. Desktop sales are down, but hardly out, and for manufacturers it's probably much easier to maintain a reasonable margin on desktop computers since they require basically no engineering or support compared to anything more portable. I suspect that even a few years from now, we'll still have all of these devices. Desktops, laptops, hybrids, tablets, phablets, phones, and wearable computers may all coexist in a spectrum of power/portability for the next five or ten years.

Well, I think that when it comes to these predictions it's because people use the terms with different shades of meaning. Some of the pundits use desktop and PC interchangeably, some don't. Some people, like me for example, mean no longer even the second choice in most markets when they say demise. For example, I already think that the desktop form factor is dead. The purchase of mobile devices has already eclipsed desktops. Right now it's holding on because there are consumers who are buying it simply because it's both cheaper and available. Not because it's more powerful. I'm not talking about the niche gamer PCs, there is likely always going to be some sort of market for systems like that and for people who enjoy building their own systems.

Plus these desktop systems that we see out there last for-friggin'-ever. At my local YMCA there is a 2.8 GHz Pentium 4 with HT from circa 2007 that is going to be in service for over a decade, barring some sort of motherboard failure. I think what we will see is in the consumer market these are going to be replaced by larger tablets and all-in-one type "desktops" when people buy them at all. So I don't think any reasonable person thinks the "desktop" is completely disappearing. The current desktops will be in service for a looong time but the traditional desktop tower type system for the consumer market and enterprise market is already dead. It's completely comoditized and their number of sales are in free fall. It's the newer stuff that's making the money. PC manufacturers are all saying they expect "tablet" sales to exceed desktop sales this year. Whatever that means. But however you define "tablet" one thing is clear - the typical desktop form factor is already considered antiquated.

Now lets talk about how those dang Netbooks ruined the PC market from 2009 to now and why the PC manufacturers waited so dang long to realize that touch enabled, mobile devices was really going to be where the market was going. I mean seriously, we could have had these types of devices 9 months ago and we'd already be on the second gen of the Surface RT like Windows systems and hybrid ultrabooks.

And where are the LTE devices? I really think the PC manufacturers were living in some sort of bubble or something. What I see as the true iPad killer is an ultrabook style convertible laptop with built in 4G LTE. With an i5, 8 GB RAM, a 128 (minimum) SSD, and the ability to run Office and my Windows apps it's game over iPad. But it has to be both a good tablet and a good laptop. That's the really hard part, I guess. But who's making that? And if it were priced around $1300? TAKE MY MONEY!

GAngel

If you add LTE to such a device in it's current form it becomes a laptop with the huge battery drain. Not a whole lot of benefit with 3G+ networks being plenty fast for a limited data plan. As for the rest of your specs dell already offers the XPS 12 with those specs or higher and if dell offers it the rest of the manufacturers do as well.

ptilsen

RobertKaucher wrote: »

Some people, like me for example, mean no longer even the second choice in most markets when they say demise. For example, I already think that the desktop form factor is dead. The purchase of mobile devices has already eclipsed desktops. Right now it's holding on because there are consumers who are buying it simply because it's both cheaper and available. Not because it's more powerful. I'm not talking about the niche gamer PCs, there is likely always going to be some sort of market for systems like that and for people who enjoy building their own systems.

See, this is where I'm not so sure. The desktop, even outside of the "niche" gaming community, is far from dead. The numbers I've seen, such as this, show desktop still has a big place in the ecosystem. It's in decline for market share since, as you said, they need replacement less frequently and tablets and such are still relatively new. That doesn't mean to me that it's "dead", even hyperbolically. Outside of the existing numbers which show desktops still have lots of sales (again, market share relative to device and total sales are very different -- 100 million/year is still a $10-100 billion market), I reject the idea that there isn't and won't be a serious need and market for desktops (even if we mean desktops which are replaced in 4-7 year cycles instead of 2-5).

First, there is still actual raw horsepower. RAM, processing power, storage, and general expansion needs still exist. Faster Internet, cloud services, and such don't compete with more local storage, either; they enable it. IT professionals and others still need local VMs which need horsepower. Multimedia people still need horsepower. Laptops are slowly chipping away at desktops on this front, but it's still cheaper to buy or build a ridiculous desktop and a cheap laptop than it is to get a DTR or souped-up Ultrabook/Macbook Pro.

There's the not-so-niche-and-not-dying PC gaming market. This is an extension of the horsepower issue, but my point is to not discount gaming. PC gaming is still a big deal, and from what I can tell is actually becoming more mainstream, not less, as consumers become more tech-savvy. WoW and Starcraft alone mean lots of people still need PCs. Again, laptops are still chipping away here, but if I'm an average gamer and just need a weak mobile device for email and content consumption, and only do "serious" gaming when I'm at home, and iPad and a desktop make a lot more sense than a convertible or an Ultrabook.

After that, there's the corporate desktop. Ten years from now it might not exist, and obviously we're trending away from it, but VDI hasn't replaced it. For starters, VDI isn't actually cheaper for most organizations, and for many there is really no driving force to switch. At my own company, tablets are replacing laptops and supplementing desktops, but never (and I really mean never) replacing desktops. An $800 convertible with a docking station might replace the desktop/iPad combo, but that's a big might and there's a big question of when it will be here. Even there, if 75% of our workforce just needs a workstation, our choice is still thin client or desktop. Right now, desktops still make more financial sense for us, and I really think we're five years from that changing. Before I worked here, when I was working at the SMB-market MSP, the environments were almost entirely desktops and laptops, occasionally supplemented with tablets. There was no financial sense in switching off of desktops for most clients, who wouldn't do it even if there were (there was huge financial incentive to switch off servers and go to Office 365, Vuze, or other cloud infrastructure, but it was a tough sell for most).

So, I still see desktops having a big chunk of the corporate and consumer market share for the next few years. I see tablets and convertibles as bigger markets in terms of revenue and profit, but I just don't see desktops being relegated to a niche market or eliminated until probably the 2020s. We'll see much lower desktop sales, of course, but I think they will still be fairly common.

(One thing to mention is that I do consider all-in-ones a la iMac to be desktops. Any non-portable PC, to me, is a desktop. User serviceability and expansion room are small parts of the equation.)

I agree that LTE is a big missed opportunity. My boss has said he'd consider dumping his home Internet and using his iPhone's hotspot. I wouldn't, but I think most people would. A home filled with LTE devices eliminates the need for wired Internet and eliminates the need for WiFi, a router, and so on.

ptilsen

GAngel wrote: »

If you add LTE to such a device in it's current form it becomes a laptop with the huge battery drain. Not a whole lot of benefit with 3G+ networks being plenty fast for a limited data plan. As for the rest of your specs dell already offers the XPS 12 with those specs or higher and if dell offers it the rest of the manufacturers do as well.

XPS 12 with 8GB of RAM and a modest 128GB SSD is close to $1,500 with shipping and taxes. iPad gen 3 or 4 or mini and an Ultrabook with better specs and maybe a GT 630M or 640M is less than that and less of a compromise on features and usability (the obvious compromise being having two devices).

Not that XPS 12 isn't the right direction, but it highlights the point we're making on Surface Pro, which is that it and convertibles are not quite there yet. XPS 12 doesn't replace an iPad or a larger Ultrabook in it's current form, just as Surface doesn't.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the whole spectrum is going to coexist for the foreseeable future. I think the only device which is truly dead is the netbook. Cheaper ultraportables and convertibles/hybrids/keyboard-accessorized tablets have replaced it. They may never truly replace the laptop and desktop, and will compete with laptops paired with mini tablets, phablets, and phones.

I'm not even sure I really want that perfectly-spec'ed Surface or convertible that badly. A light 14'' or 15'' laptop offers a good keyboard and better screen real estate. A desktop or docked laptop offer a way better keyboard and way better screen real estate. Touch will never replace keyboard and mouse for me, and it's questionable that the portability of two pounds and three or four inches of screen space is really worth the loss of versatility.

networker050184

A little off tpoic, but what are some thoughts on the Chromebooks? Probably not best suited for a lot of us here as the lower end specs and application restrictions would hinder many professional computing taks, studying etc, but after playing with one for a bit I could see tremendous value with the small price tag they have. Honestly I barely do anything that isn't web based anymore outside of work.

ptilsen

I think they're dead in the water. They could have been huge five years ago when they were putting Ubuntu on netbooks. Chromebook is basically a netbook or laptop that doesn't run Windows, and netbooks that do run Windows are dead because ultraportables, tablets, hybrids and such are about as good for the same task and not that much more expensive. Notebooks that do run Windows don't cost that much more than a Chromebook.

I'm not saying I don't see any use at all. I mean, $200 for a really, really portable laptop can fill some niches. But for $100 more you get a laptop that fills more than niches. Make the keyboard an accessory, add touch, and you fill more than niches.

RobertKaucher

ptilsen wrote: »

So, I still see desktops having a big chunk of the corporate and consumer market share for the next few years.

ptilsen wrote: »

(One thing to mention is that I do consider all-in-ones a la iMac to be desktops. Any non-portable PC, to me, is a desktop. User serviceability and expansion room are small parts of the equation.)

So this is really, again, just what we mean. For me declining from 18% means enough to be considered dead. But they are including the new generation of all-in-ones in that and I don't think those should rightly be counted as desktops. I just think they are different enough to be arguable classed as something else. And from your definition you consider those desktops - but I don't. I just see the way we interact with those to be very different.

ptilsen wrote: »

I agree that LTE is a big missed opportunity. My boss has said he'd consider dumping his home Internet and using his iPhone's hotspot. I wouldn't, but I think most people would. A home filled with LTE devices eliminates the need for wired Internet and eliminates the need for WiFi, a router, and so on.

I honestly have no idea what the manufacturers where thinking. I can only imagine that they were being conservative because of the Netbook/Tablet PC fiasco of years past and didn't see that the reason Macs were eating their market share was because people wanted premium PCs but when you hold something like an ultrabook up to a netbook and it costs 5 times the ultrabook, the average consumer is going to buy the netbook because they do not or cannot get past the fact that there is a very real, very huge difference between the two. So they buy a cheap system, it runs like crap, it gets a virus and they can't fix it. So they take it to the Geek Squad.

"$200 to fix it? It only cost $300! Forget this cr*p! I'm buying a Mac. PCs really do suck!"

It's true. Consumers don't know what they want. And if you offer them crap they will take it gladly from you but hate you for it later. And I think that is what happened and the PC manufacturers thought, "If they won't buy these netbooks or those terrible, over-priced, under-powered mono-touch tablet PCs why would they buy an expensive, highly performant, reasonably priced convertible?" MS had to drag them kicking and screaming into the present.

RobertKaucher

GAngel wrote: »

If you add LTE to such a device in it's current form it becomes a laptop with the huge battery drain. Not a whole lot of benefit with 3G+ networks being plenty fast for a limited data plan. As for the rest of your specs dell already offers the XPS 12 with those specs or higher and if dell offers it the rest of the manufacturers do as well.

NerdyDad, has one of those and is in love with it. But I still don't think that it's a good tablet yet - it's a reasonable tablet. I just don't think they have perfected it at this point. It's a little heavy and thick still. But your point is taken - it's a great first attempt. My next laptop will be one of those or similar. I guess what I was complaining about was time shifted a bit. When Windows 8 was launched, those devices were impossible to find in stores and NerdyDad had to wait nearly 3 months after ordering it. And the other manufacturers were worse with the exception of Lenovo.

DevilWAH

networker050184 wrote: »

A little off tpoic, but what are some thoughts on the Chromebooks? Probably not best suited for a lot of us here as the lower end specs and application restrictions would hinder many professional computing taks, studying etc, but after playing with one for a bit I could see tremendous value with the small price tag they have. Honestly I barely do anything that isn't web based anymore outside of work.

I see HP has added a Crome book now, that's a big name getting behind them so may be this year will see the rise of the Crome. £200 for a very portable notebook. Now Crome offers of line storage and apps, it's a contender for the none power user.

Iristheangel

Since we're on the topic of Chromebooks, anyone care for a hack? Have fun, you ethical hackers!
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higherho

Get the cisco Cius Enterprise Tablet instead

The Cisco Cius Enterprise Tablet Hitting Verizon Later This Summer | TechCrunch

Though honestly, I dislike Windows 8, its seriously overall a step down from Windows 7. The surface will never beat the Ipad in terms of the consumer market. The Enterprise market is still up for grabs but there is still a chance of apple to take that market too. Iphone is going to be the next gov phone (good by blackberry).

Do I want Surface to succeed? yes but without Windows 8.

Iristheangel

Cisco Cius died almost a year ago: Cisco Cius sees us no more ? The Register

I'm no longer interested in a tablet that won't run my legacy Windows applications. I have no problem with Windows 8 and have been running it on my desktop without any stability issues since it came out. It's one of those things that's better on a touch screen. To each their own but I'm not going to pretend like an app store with limited and dumbed-down apps will ever be as productive as something that runs all my desktop software.

higherho

How behind the times I am! lol

I agree if you want something in a tablet factor to run native x86 programs. Although I have no use for legacy applications. the app store has fulfilled all my work place needs (word, email, excel, project, VPN into my boxes ,etc). However, apple could do the same thing Microsoft is doing. Just come out with a new OS for us Super users / Admins and let us install it on our current IPads. The backend to iOS is OSX anyways.

tpatt100

I think the key word here is "productive". The average consumer "pre laptop price drop era" relied on the desktop for everything such as:

1. Email
2. Web browsing
3. Gaming
4. Online shopping

Laptops depending on if you live in a one story house or apartment moved the PC to a common area that might not need as much space.

Now with smartphones and tablets the PC sort of got pushed aside for everyday stuff like email and web browsing. If I have to look something up before I had to go upstairs and use my PC. Now? I pull my phone out of my pocket for quick stuff. If we are watching TV and my wife or I say "man where have we seen this actor before" one of us grabs one of the mobile devices laying around to check out IMDB.

The PC market exploded when that was the only way to get online and the internet became the new "craze" and the PC was the only way to get online or you had to go to the library.

Now? I think only my washing machine doesn't have an IP address....and that might change soon.

My desktop is primarily for gaming and I barely have time for that anymore so I sneak in 15 minutes of gaming on my iPad when I can.

RobertKaucher

higherho wrote: »

Get the cisco Cius Enterprise Tablet instead
The Cisco Cius Enterprise Tablet Hitting Verizon Later This Summer | TechCrunch

Though honestly, I dislike Windows 8, its seriously overall a step down from Windows 7. The surface will never beat the Ipad in terms of the consumer market. The Enterprise market is still up for grabs but there is still a chance of apple to take that market too. Iphone is going to be the next gov phone (good by blackberry).

Do I want Surface to succeed? yes but without Windows 8.

So you don't like the significant performance enhancements in file copy, in boot time, the file history feature, storage spaces? Or you just don't like metro?

I am not saying Win 8 is perfect, but it is certainly not a step down from Windows 7 as it builds on 7's kernel in every way except for having big buttons on the start screen instead of tiny little ones nested in a menu.

higherho

Metro is pretty much my only major beef about the OS. Everything else you mentioned they could have easily done in Windows 7. I think tiles works well for a phone OS but this metro stuff in a full blown OS is blah. But then again that could just be me hating to move into that realm.

broli720

I plan on buying it as well. I've been holding out on a tablet since the first ipad because I actually wanted a viable laptop replacement with the same form factor. I don't think the price is too bad but the battery life might be myonly issue with it. I mean the fact that I can actually mess around with my router sims, run starcraft, run AD, and bitlocker was enough for me.

Iristheangel

I have mixed feelings about the Metro UI. It's REALLY useful on a touch screen and I love the live tiles. My biggest gripe about it on my home desktop is that I can't keep the Metro interface up on one side of the screen and do my work on the other in "desktop" mode. The second I click on something on the Desktop, Metro closes and I have two 22 inch screens full of Desktop mode. Not really the worst thing, mind you but I'd like to be able to keep track of things through live tiles WHILE doing my work. For touchscreens, it pretty much the best thing ever. There have been Windows 7 tablets out and they didn't succeed for multiple reasons - Multi-touch, speed, etc are all things that could have been modified and fixed but the normal "start menu" and small taskbar at the bottom isn't very friendly for a touch interface where you're using a blunt instrument like your finger. That's one thing I didn't like when I was testing the Surface RT - that Office wasn't integrated into the Metro UI and I had to go to the Desktop and tap on the *TINY* little icon that was grouped together with a bunch of other tiny little icons. I think the Metro UI works REALLY well for people like me who enjoy the live tiles or use a touchscreen but I would love to see Microsoft release a service patch that allows other users to convert their Metro UI into the standard Start Menu if they want to change the settings. That way the desktop users who don't like change are happy and the rest of us get to keep doing what we're doing.

Roguetadhg

For the tablet/xbox space, metro makes sense. Otherwise, meh. I still prefer my desktop with taskbar.

I've never felt so dumb standing infront of a desktop before... Thanks W8

I'd like to see their multi monitor support though. So I was thinking about a trial version of W8 just to check it out. Yarr!

higherho

in Windows 8, does anyone else have this problem or think its weird. Lets say I want to open up two instances of a program. I've been using the keyboard a lot and I typically just use a run command to open up a program. But if I already have one instance open already it wont open a second one. The only way I found to open up a second instance was to right click on instance that I have open (in the task bar) and do it that way.

Iristheangel

I haven't had that issue, Higherho. It's probably the metro-apps. I have no problem opening two instances of non-Windows 8 specialized programs but I dont' use many of the apps that I got through the app store