Why are students never paid their due?

Why do companies think its OK to pay students chump change, or better yet, nothing at all, just because we're in college? We're not slaves, and we don't need your mediocre jobs.

PS: I have 5 yrs work experience, yet because I am a student, they will only pay me $20/hr max. wtf?

/rant

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BGraves

sparten wrote: »

I don't get some of the comments in this thread. I live in NYC area, and it's nearly impossible to live comfortably on $20/hr. I don't get how you guys do it, but to each his own.

Hey sparten, have you taken a look at this?
Cost of Living Calculator: Compare the Cost of Living in Two Cities - CNNMoney

It might help you understand how some of us could live on that amount of money while someone like yourself in NYC would need a much higher wage.
For example, it says I should be making between 40-60k more a year if I lived in NYC to have a comparable salary to what I make now where I live.

When I reversed it and put in your hourly wage, you would be making around 16k a year here, which obviously no one could really live on.

I would have to then agree with others who have highlighted that you applied for an accepted a position at that wage. Perhaps you should continue to look for a position that pays more, or negotiate a higher wage based on outstanding job performance?

At any rate, best of luck!

SteveFT

Students are usually willing to settle for less.

I think that pretty much sums it up. $20/hr is better than $0/hr. Most students don't have their choice of which job to pick. If they do, then they can play the game and work up from $20/hr. In this scenario, I don't believe that being enrolled in an academic program should affect your pay. If it is, if you have the skills and desire, perhaps you should look elsewhere?

neo9006

I agree depends on where you live, if you were in texas, you be doing okay at 20 an hour. It depends on that mostly. Really when your student you take what you can get and work your way up.

Qord

@sparten

Knowing that now, yeah you should get more money. However, as others have stated: You took the job at those wages. Are you at least getting good experience/exposure because of it? Is it an internship or a regular job?

RouteMyPacket

sparten wrote: »

Why do companies think its OK to pay students chump change, or better yet, nothing at all, just because we're in college? We're not slaves, and we don't need your mediocre jobs.

PS: I have 5 yrs work experience, yet because I am a student, they will only pay me $20/hr max. wtf?

/rant

"we don't need your mediocre jobs"..attitudes like that are typical of college kids and fresh graduates somehow leaving college with the expectation that they are worth six figure salaries.

Welcome to the real world. Post your 5yrs of experience for us, let's see it and then tell us what you think you "deserve" to make because if you think $40k salary is crap for a noob then you really need to reevaluate your expectations and or lifestyle.

Jon_Cisco

sparten wrote: »

..., or better yet, nothing at all,...

/rant

Since being paid nothing at all was an option I assumed this was an internship. As an internship I would expect that you are gaining knowledge in exchange for your services.

While it may not work for you many students need the real world experience that internships provide.

beads

As a student in college back in the 80s I was making minimum wage most of the time - $3.35/hour. Got some summertime work for $6.00/hour with overtime. Frankly, no one made much more than that during those times, let alone say $10.00/hour. Which would have felt ludicrously considering how bad the economy was back then.

Please add narcissistic old wives tales about walking to school in the snow, up hill, both ways, how bad we had it.

Welcome to scholastic life. At least your in IT and not in say journalism where you often pay for your internships.

- B Eads

ptilsen

beads wrote: »

Welcome to scholastic life. At least your in IT and not in say journalism where you often pay for your internships.

*sigh*
Does anyone read OP or any subsequent posts? OP is not a 21-year-old college student. This is not "scholastic life." It's "working-professional-going-back-to-school" life.

OP's complaint from the onset is clearly that his employer is underpaying him because he's a student. OP is not complaining that he has insufficient earning power.

netsysllc

Not to sound rude but unless you have some special skills $20/hr sounds like a good wage with only 5 years of experience.

ptilsen

@netsysllc
If you followed the thread and understood cost of living comparisons, you'd know OP lives in NYC and that $20 to you in AZ carries a solid 80% higher purchasing power than it does for OP. No one would work in IT in NYC if five years only got you $20/hr.

Plantwiz

It's already been said...no one's fault but the OP for accepting the rate.

$20 is a reasonable starting point and while many are chiming in about how it's chump change...what other facts do you know about this situation other than one person complaining about their pay rate? What additional benefits do they receive? Phone? Health? Time off? Comp-time? Bonus? There are a number of factors that go into pay, and the first is when one is invited for an interview it is their personal responsibility to have researched the company out and know what they are worth.

There is also no mention (unless I missed reading it) about when the first review period is and what the pay range for said job is. This alone may be a trial or training wage and it is reasonable regardless of experience to 'train' a new hire for 90 days to see how they fit into the organization/mesh with co-workers/ and just assess their overall work habits and knowledge.

$20 p/h is likely the beginning, not the end.

ptilsen

Unless the benefits are something absurdly out of the norm, we know enough. We know OP has five years of experience and lives in NYC. The salary he's being offered is the NYC equivalent to what someone might make at Geek Squad or a really bad internship here, not what someone with certifications and IT experience would be offered. He should probably be getting $24/hour with benefits, minimum. Over $30/hr is more what I'd expect, depending on the many, many factors.

traceyke

glenn_33 wrote: »

hey, $20/hr is more than I make...and I'm not a student

Same Here

Plantwiz

ptilsen wrote: »

Unless the benefits are something absurdly out of the norm, we know enough. We know OP has five years of experience and lives in NYC. ....

And there are plenty of threads I have read where entry level in NYC is $12p/h...so, still comes back to why accept it if it is so 'bad'?

We can only read his/her side of the events (not the employer's) and therefore we do not have all the information. I personally do not think $20 p/h is bad for a start. We don't know the company (nor should we - it would be inappropriate to post it), we don't know the exact nature of the experience...merely that it is 5 years. We do not know the other candidate qualifications...and the market may be flooded for that particular job-level and this is a reasonable price for what others are offering in that area (or industry...since we know the job is "IT-like" but it may not be a company where there is heavy IT need).

And ptilsen, you are typically a very reasonable guy, so I'm not certain why your posts come across as so heated regarding the OP's position. He/she is the one who accepted it? (perhaps I am misreading them, but you seem to be continuing to come to the OP's defense - and strongly) I'll have to stick with "live and learn" on this one myself.

:shrug:

neo9006

So much love on this thread lol. True you live and learn and you do your best. I say down the road he moves to another state and maybe then it will be what he expected.

ptilsen

I don't have any strong feelings about this situation in and of itself. I just think a lot of the replies have been unreasonable and have indicated posters aren't reading the thread. I'm more perturbed by laziness and illogic than the situation itself, which I'll admit is not that far out of the norm (employers often make lowball offers for no reason, so it's not such an unusual circumstance). I'll even give you that $20 is not the end of the world and in some remote circumstances might even be fair. What I won't give anyone is that OP being a student is remotely relevant, and the posts about students being "lucky" to make $XYZ are unreasonable.

I'm just really surprised to see that on this site, where we talk about how much we don't need degrees to succeed in this field (but they usually help, as we always concur), somehow someone with five years of professional experience being a student is getting the connotation of a 20-year-old working at McDonald's part-time while attending Far Away University and living in the dorms.

I should point out that OP didn't claim that he accepted the position. I hope he didn't, but I would never deny it's his own fault for doing so.

ipchain

ptilsen wrote: »

Sure, but we also shouldn't accept significantly less than we're worth on the market. That OP is a student should not decrease his or her value. I'm a student, but wasn't two years ago, and $20/hr would have been a massive pay cut. Totally unacceptable when I know I'm worth more. I can't speak to what OP could be making, but if $20/hr feels low, that's probably the case.
.

For what it's worth, no one said you should accept significantly less than what you are worth on the market, nor did we initially know that the OP lived in NYC. I agree with you in that if the OP is a student, it should not decrease his/her value. Ultimately, if you feel you are being low-balled for whatever reason, you can always say no and move on. The decision is ours to make, but once it's been made we should live with the consequences or do something about it. We control our own future, not anyone else.

SteveLord

If you don't like the pay/COL in your area, get out and go elsewhere.

DissonantData

The good thing about being a student is that you learn what you do AND don't want do do in life.

pert

My personal observations:
1. Lower end employees in all aspects of IT are underpaid, and the highest end are overpaid. However, this is only in reference to how much effort it takes to get there, not in the amount of revenue it generates for the company or their worth in the marketplace.
2. People pay absurd premiums for small differences in knowledge and capability. I feel like each additional hour I study has a higher rate of return than the previous hour. The greatest difference in pay comes when you transition to someone who can work with no supervision and requires no help from more experiences peers to perform complicated tasks.
3. Whatever degree, cert, or skills you acquired typically will not earn you any additional compensation until about 12-18 months later.
4.From all my observations the entire system seems to actively discourage people from entering the field and continue pursuing it during the early stages.
5. Since people pay such extreme premiums for small increases in skill, its absurd to me when people get complacent once they get to the intermediate level. It really doesn't take much more additional time or effort to go from intermediate to expert. Although going from expert to master does take a lot of work.

Jon_Cisco

ptilsen wrote: »

... I just think a lot of the replies have been unreasonable and have indicated posters aren't reading the thread....

I read the original post very differently then you have. I take note to the reference to not paying them at all to indicate this is someone obtaining a job because he is in school. Something along the lines of an internship but it is not defined in the post.

This is a very different situation then someone who is applying for a job and is also in school. One situation pays your bills and the other forwards your education. New York is expensive and $20 will not go far. However we simply are not given enough information to even assume the 5yrs experience apply to the job in question.

My interest in this post is only to say that sometimes internships are hard to come by and a good one might be worth a lot more then the pay.

beads

ptilsen wrote: »

*sigh*
Does anyone read OP or any subsequent posts? OP is not a 21-year-old college student. This is not "scholastic life." It's "working-professional-going-back-to-school" life.

OP's complaint from the onset is clearly that his employer is underpaying him because he's a student. OP is not complaining that he has insufficient earning power.

I must have confused this for something its not. Lets see, going back to college after a break and suddenly the rules changed just because your somehow a seasoned professional without a degree? Oh yes, its crystal clear to me now. Evil corporation should be offering at least $45.00/hour because of the significance of being older and wiser. Got it.

The comparison above is just that. In IT you'd be happy to be paid at all let alone for minimum wage to get into the door. After college I managed to score a nice $6.00/hour position running a mainframe on third shift. Essentially, I came out of school and starved just like today. Nothing has really changed except the perception of value. I understand New York City is vastly more expensive than most other places in the United States. Likewise, I have seen so called senior level positions with a CISSP and a host of other certifications attached to $60-75,000 in downtown Chicago. A notoriously expensive city to work and live. My reaction? I moved out of Chicago, myself for more money, less hassle.

- B Eads

- B Eads

redz

This all boils down to the situation being OP's fault...

If you could make more elsewhere, it's your fault for not leaving.
If you can't make more elsewhere, you're not worth more.
If you didn't negotiate, well, it's your fault for accepting the rate.

Look for a new job and get more - if you're marketable as more than endpoint support, which I assume at five years experience you should be. If you're not marketable as more than that... It's (once again) your fault...

I honestly can't bring myself to feel bad for you. Being a working adult going to school sucks, but you've avoided responding to every inquiry regarding your background and experience level - we only know you have two entry-level certifications; heck, I don't even know what level of school you're in or what you're studying. Your five years of experience could be part time help desk script-reading tier one phone support while spending five years to obtain an Art History degree.

ptilsen

beads wrote: »

I must have confused this for something its not. Lets see, going back to college after a break and suddenly the rules changed just because your somehow a seasoned professional without a degree? Oh yes, its crystal clear to me now. Evil corporation should be offering at least $45/hour because of the significance of being older and wiser. Got it.

What does going back to college have to do with anything? What rules are you talking about? If I'm making $45/hr doing a certain level of work, going back to school doesn't magically make me no longer worth $45/hr. And I don't think the company is required to pay him any particular amount of money for any reason, let me be clear. But it is irrational to offer less than he's worth because of his being a student, since he should, in theory, be able to get more elsewhere. This is why I hope, for his sake, he did not accept, based on what information we have. And again, if he did, that's his choice.

beads wrote: »

In IT you'd be happy to be paid at all let alone for minimum wage to get into the door.

Maybe you would be happy to accept minimum wage to enter a field that has low unemployment and relatively high pay, but I wouldn't. It is only rational to accept minimum wage or any low wage if there is lots of competition for jobs and you will be forced to remain unemployed if not doing so. In any event, OP has IT experience, so I don't see the relevance. He's not getting his foot in the door. Why are we assuming he is? When he opens with mentioning he has five years of experience, I, for one, assume it's relevant experience, not five years of food service.

I'll give you that NYC and Chicago are probably not where I'd choose to live. From what I've seen, salaries in most fields, including IT, are not commensurate with cost of living. I'd still expect OP to make more than $20/hr based on the information we have, but again, even that's really specific. My biggest point is that his status as a student shouldn't and generally won't negatively impact his perceived market value. His lacking a completed college degree could reduce it, but working on one wouldn't reduce it further. That just makes no sense.

If you could make more elsewhere, it's your fault for not leaving.
If you can't make more elsewhere, you're not worth more.
If you didn't negotiate, well, it's your fault for accepting the rate.

This I agree with 100%. I'll also agree it's unfortunate OP hasn't cleared any of this up.

neo9006

You may never get that answer. I agree he could make more money elsewhere. I would agree if he has 5 years IT experience then that is a bonus. If I was him, I probably move somewhere else where $20/hr is going to help you live somewhat decent. For someone like myself with no experience, I take that and run with it for now. I would agree with what pert said. You study and you can get to that salary you want. No one is going to hand it to you, we all know you have to work to get there.

beads

Point being is that once upon a time working in IT at all was a privilege unto itself. It just feels evermore annoying to hear today that someone wants to go back to college and yet demand a high pay rate. This scenario has unfortunately been played out on board after board over the past few days and my feathers are ruffled a bit today. IT is a highly competitive field and always will be. Part of the reason there is big money involved is that you also first need to compete against one's self. Lots of reading and studying, etc.

Going back to school is a first job for the most part unless your doing night school. So, I am assuming (how dare I) a limited availability and schedule. Twenty bucks an hour even with what is likely paltry experience is still better than cleaning toilets like most students for minimum wage. Really it sounds more like sour grapes at this point in time. Hence my quip about $45 an hour. How bout we just say: "But think of the children!" That will get you even less sympathy. In reality it isn't that hard to get into IT today as it has been in the past. Everyone seems to think this slow patch in the economy is the first time any of this has happened so must be unique. It isn't. It will happen again only in shorter time frames. Get used to it and adjust to it now.

- B Eads

ptilsen

beads wrote: »

Going back to school is a first job for the most part unless your doing night school.

This would have been a good assumption.

beads wrote: »

So, I am assuming (how dare I) a limited availability and schedule.

This would be a bad one. OP would extraordinarily lucky to make $20/hr working nights as a full-time traditional student. When someone in their mid-twenties with professional experience is going back to school, why would you assume it's a traditional student? Especially on this site, with this site's focus. Almost everyone here going to school or contemplating school is a non-traditional student doing night or online classes, with lots of WGU. I'm pretty sure each WGU grad and student on TechExams would take issue with the idea that they're worth less while attending WGU because of WGU.

Think of it as any one of us studying for certifications in our spare time after work. You might mention in an interview, "I'm studying for my CISSP specialization in my spare time" or something like that. Some would even list it on a resume (though I oppose this, in my cases). It wouldn't cause the employer to say "well, we have to pay you less since your attention is divided." Now, with school I can see how it could potentially conflict with on-call or something like that, but outside of that there's nothing fundamentally different. A working professional furthering his or her knowledge outside of business hours is worth more, if anything, not less, in the job market.

And look, I get the problem with OP's whiny attitude. But can we not admit that the idea that an employee who is able to fulfill his or her job duties is worth less for going to school is a silly one?

redz

ptilsen wrote: »

But can we not admit that the idea that an employee who is able to fulfill his or her job duties is worth less for going to school is a silly one?

I highly doubt anyone here will dispute that claim as a standalone statement.

The issue I, and I assume several others, take with this is that it is OP's decision to work here, to make $X/hr, and then complain about his decision. Phrases like "I don't need your mediocre jobs" don't exactly help OP's case. He may be underpaid. I can honestly tell you that my perception, that based on the attitude and problem solving capability displayed in this thread, is that he's probably overpaid.

neo9006

Like I got told a few years back when the economy was really crappy, be lucky you have a job. People out there know what I am talking about. I still have that same job as of now. It pays the bills. I mean he is getting exp and setting up himself for down the road. People like this I really can't sorry for. I feel the OP is not looking at the bigger picture. Of course I am of the older generation and my thinking is somewhat different then his. I learned hard work would get you somewhere, it did for me at another job, I was management there. I am not management at my current job and honestly see problems that could be better handled based on my experience. But some young people want the big bucks and they need to understand you aren't going to get there without paying your dues. I guess for me that is what chaps my arse about some of the younger generation. Personally I don't care if you have the degree, the certs and so forth if your attitude blows then you get what you deserve. Reading the different threads in here I know some of my younger friends in here have done what it takes to get there. For that I look to strive to get there like you did and for that my respects for you. I am glad you are getting to where you want to get to. He has his options unless he does something about it he needs to quit complaining about it and do something and best of luck to him. Sorry if I got on my rant myself.

Plantwiz

It looks to me that our OP may simply be a pot-stirrer. My guess is there is no job in NY let alone a job for $20 ph that the OP is contemplating.

Please refrain from creating more entertainment for this person and let us all return to assisting those serious about their certifications the main focus of the site.

Take care in 'helping' on a thread when the OP careful ducks out of the conversation.
PW

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