women in IT

MQuinn6

Informal poll:

Do you think it helps or hurts to be a female in IT? Or does it not make any difference?

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sprkymrk

In my experience it's got to help. I have 2 woman in my office, and if they were male they would have, without a shadow of doubt, been fired by now. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Fired.

Ricka182

I think it really depends on who you'd be working with/for. If the person wants a male doing the job, they'll find an excuse to **** the female. There's also affirmative action in the states, so that helps to be female with that in perspective. I think AA is bogus myself, the best person qualified for the job, regardless of gender, race, etc, should get the job....

Webmaster

I agree with Ricka. Though I do encourage more women to go in IT, it shouldn't not lead to an unfair advantage (unless it weights up to the unfair advantages males have...). I think it evens out in most cases. It usually comes down to personality (whether it 'matches' with the manager and coworkers), skills, 'contacts', anything both male and female can have or acquire.

sprkymrk

I agree that's the way it should be. I have seen the exact opposite in my 20 years of workin' for a livin'.

jasonboche

sprkymrk wrote:

I have 2 woman in my office, and if they were male they would have, without a shadow of doubt, been fired by now. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Fired.

Because they would have been hanging out in the female restroom which is where no male should be?

jasonboche

MQuinn6 wrote:

Informal poll:

Do you think it helps or hurts to be a female in IT? Or does it not make any difference?

It neither helps or hurts. Anyone who is qualified should be able to hold their own in IT. I don't think it matters if you are male or female. The majority of IT is comprised of men, but I've seen enough females in the job to know that they fit.

I think there might be more unqualified men in IT than qualified women.

Jas

sprkymrk

jasonboche wrote:

MQuinn6 wrote:

Informal poll:

Do you think it helps or hurts to be a female in IT? Or does it not make any difference?

It neither helps or hurts. Anyone who is qualified should be able to hold their own in IT. I don't think it matters if you are male or female. The majority of IT is comprised of men, but I've seen enough females in the job to know that they fit.

I think there might be more unqualified men in IT than qualified women.

Jas

How about percentages, rather than number of unqualified female vs. male? In my years of IT work, I have known first hand the skill level of about 18 females by name, and I would say that 7 were very good and the other 11 were a waste of very good money. Of these, I only saw 2 get let go. However, when I see a male who is a waste of money, they seem to get canned within a year or so. The women seem to get more sympathy, or the boss is afraid they'll cry "discrimination", or the worst is when they have several key customers flirting with them who influence your company to keep them. Sad...

So I have to stick by my original, unscientific opinion- it helps.

sprkymrk

jasonboche wrote:

sprkymrk wrote:

I have 2 woman in my office, and if they were male they would have, without a shadow of doubt, been fired by now. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Fired.

Because they would have been hanging out in the female restroom which is where no male should be?

You mean we're not allowed in there? Maybe that's what all the screaming was about...

Trailerisf

I have encountered very few women in the field... All have been desk support and useless...

Although I have encountered one HOT (and I mean HOT) copier tech... but there was already a crowd of guys around her, no space for me to drool. Couldn't tell you her qualifications but I'm sure no client ever complained.

If they can do the job, more power to them. If they are useless, buh-bye.

Danman32

I have worked with quite a few sharp female techs. We provide (soon to be past tense) phone support to those that provide support. One who recently left the company I especially liked to work with. She learned quickly. I thought of her as the librarian because she was very good at researching problems on the internet and often remembered where she last saw the answer to an obscure problem. She was suprised when I told her that I learned alot from her, since she felt she learned alot from me. Guess it was synergy and mutual respect at work here.

Often her husband would call her for help informally and I believe he was an IT guy himself.

I was suprised that she hadn't passed 292 and didn't try again. I am sure she could pass with a little more study.

strauchr

sprkymrk wrote:

In my experience it's got to help. I have 2 woman in my office, and if they were male they would have, without a shadow of doubt, been fired by now. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Fired.

I tend to agree with you there. I have worked with many females in my time in IT and only 1 of them passes the test for technical ability and teamwork. And she was the Help Desk manager who hired me who great technically and had great soft skills.

The rest - well most have been utterly useless technically. A few have potential but are just plain lazy and get by by batting their eye lashes at the nearest tech. As I am writing this the only female co-worked at my 'pod' is on a private call. She spends most of her time on the phone and then whinges about how she has no time.

The very very few who are actually ok technically have no soft skills, no communications skills, can't work within a team and get very bitchy. And not the kind of "If I was a man I'd be called ambitious" bitchy but just plain nasty, saying things about people behind their backs, sleeping with the managers and getting better positions (pardon the pun).

So my impression of women in IT is quite poor (guys in the Engineering field also say the same things). So if its a disadvantage its because of the actions of women currently in IT giving them a bad name rather than anything else.

Most women tend to congregate in the Help Desk, software development and Lotus Notes depts.

And in the end, not one of these useless women went. Yet I have seen many a good tech (male) go for so many less reasons. In one company I worked for they couldn't get rid of these useless IT women because they had been there to long, unfair dismissla laws, big redundancy payouts etc. etc. so they just kept them there, doing sweet FA all day. Everyone wanted them to go, including females who had to speak to them on the Help Desk.

keenon

i think its both...i have seen both

i think any person in IT is great but its the drive that sets them apart.. men & women alike.

i have worked with and seen both sloppy lazy guys that manage to "skate" by with piss poor work being "buddy buddy" with their boss. likewise women that are just as bad as the men using the same stuff..

in my time i have seen very sharp women that ran circles around the guys. then the guys feeling as if they need to cut her down due to their lack of

also AA is still very necessary as the policial culture is trying to become more "conservative" shifting its way back to bias and "good ole boy" ways of doing things. until the "good ole boy"s are made accountable and serverly punished
for this type of bias in any place

rcoop

Hmmm... I don't think I've ever seen it hurt (except maybe within middle IT management salaries)... software engineering and upper management I can't see it making a difference.

I would have to agree, the only time I have ever seen it make a difference was when the individual was bad, and for some reason wasn't let go of as quickly as an equivalent male counterpart, was or would have been.

Luckily I work in a company that differetiates between performers and slackers, are candid on work performance in both managerial and peer reviews, and dead weight is trimmed quickly and fairly. You pretty much know where you stand, what you need to do to continue to improve, and if you slack it hurts you financially, and when management see it starts to affect the other employees, removes it from being a problem. Although there are fewer females doing the same job I do, they are outstanding performers with excellent skills and valuable knowledge... same as if they were H1-B Visa holders or otherwise... performace is the measure of value, and being candid about it allows everyone to know where they stand (and that everyone screws up every now and then, but trying not to hurt someone's feelings, ego, or image, is addressed after every project, during reviews, and during bonus time!)

Take Care,
Rcoop

jasonboche

rcoop wrote:

Luckily I work in a company that differetiates between performers and slackers, are candid on work performance in both managerial and peer reviews, and dead weight is trimmed quickly and fairly. You pretty much know where you stand, what you need to do to continue to improve, and if you slack it hurts you financially, and when management see it starts to affect the other employees, removes it from being a problem.

Wow, what a concept. We could use a little more of that where I work.

Anyway, I've read some of the other posts here and I guess I'm a little surprised at what's going on out there. Bitchy? Talking on the phone a lot? Guess what, guys do that too. People waste time at work in various ways. Talking on the phone is just one of them. Sleeping with co-workers? Do you know this to be fact or is this a biased and unqualified opinion of a jealous co-worker? Sounds like a soap opera. As far as unfair termination, that's a crock of crap. Employment is voluntary on both sides. I can be let go tomorrow if the company decides that they just don't need me anymore. And even if you want to role play a court case of unfair termination, I'd say that a case of termination for poor performance is pretty cut and dry. Managers should be documenting said employees performance. If the manager is too afraid to discuss performance issues or terminate an employee, the manager needs to go too because that's just not good for the company. Firing employees happens every day all the time. Some companies just aren't very good at it. Dead weight in the office can be like a cancer and it can be contaigous affecting other employees like the guy who is jealous of his co-worker talking on her cell phone at length. That's not healthy. Me? I get ticked off about people coming into the office every day after I've been there nearly an hour, and they leave earlier than I do, on a regular basis. On Fridays its usually much worse. And it's not that I'm working OT every day. I'm talking about a normal 8 hour day. If you're going to knock off at 2 or 3 in the afternoon, you should be getting into the office at 5 or 6am. Not 8 or 8:30.

Anyway, if I ever start my own company and have employees, trust me, I'll know all the time wasting activities to watch out for.

sprkymrk

jasonboche wrote:

Anyway, I've read some of the other posts here and I guess I'm a little surprised at what's going on out there. Bitchy? Talking on the phone a lot? Guess what, guys do that too. People waste time at work in various ways. Talking on the phone is just one of them. Sleeping with co-workers? Do you know this to be fact or is this a biased and unqualified opinion of a jealous co-worker? Sounds like a soap opera. As far as unfair termination, that's a crock of crap. Employment is voluntary on both sides. I can be let go tomorrow if the company decides that they just don't need me anymore. And even if you want to role play a court case of unfair termination, I'd say that a case of termination for poor performance is pretty cut and dry. Managers should be documenting said employees performance. If the manager is too afraid to discuss performance issues or terminate an employee, the manager needs to go too because that's just not good for the company. Firing employees happens every day all the time. Some companies just aren't very good at it. Dead weight in the office can be like a cancer and it can be contaigous affecting other employees like the guy who is jealous of his co-worker talking on her cell phone at length. That's not healthy.

No one is arguing that woman are better/worse than men in general. We all know guys and gals that are slackers. The point was that woman (in the experience of several posters here) are able to get by with it more than men. Whatever the reason may be. Guys who slack off or are incompetant tend to (again - based on the personal experience of many here) get canned quicker than an equally incompetant female.

So my answer to the original question "Does it help to be female?" is a resounding YES.

strauchr

jasonboche wrote:

Wow, what a concept. We could use a little more of that where I work.

Anyway, I've read some of the other posts here and I guess I'm a little surprised at what's going on out there. Bitchy? Talking on the phone a lot? Guess what, guys do that too. People waste time at work in various ways. Talking on the phone is just one of them. Sleeping with co-workers? Do you know this to be fact or is this a biased and unqualified opinion of a jealous co-worker? Sounds like a soap opera. As far as unfair termination, that's a crock of crap. Employment is voluntary on both sides. I can be let go tomorrow if the company decides that they just don't need me anymore. And even if you want to role play a court case of unfair termination, I'd say that a case of termination for poor performance is pretty cut and dry. Managers should be documenting said employees performance. If the manager is too afraid to discuss performance issues or terminate an employee, the manager needs to go too because that's just not good for the company. Firing employees happens every day all the time. Some companies just aren't very good at it. Dead weight in the office can be like a cancer and it can be contaigous affecting other employees like the guy who is jealous of his co-worker talking on her cell phone at length. That's not healthy. Me? I get ticked off about people coming into the office every day after I've been there nearly an hour, and they leave earlier than I do, on a regular basis. On Fridays its usually much worse. And it's not that I'm working OT every day. I'm talking about a normal 8 hour day. If you're going to knock off at 2 or 3 in the afternoon, you should be getting into the office at 5 or 6am. Not 8 or 8:30.

Anyway, if I ever start my own company and have employees, trust me, I'll know all the time wasting activities to watch out for.

Lets just say when the womans husband comes to the office and you them fighting about it, she admits it and they break up you could pretty much bet on it.

Or when the CIO and the (whatever she was) both come in late through the door at the same time and she suddenly gets a cushy management position 'made' for her when its not required you could suspect that. And even when they work back late together almost every night.

Yes time wasting comes in various forms. There is subtlety and there is just plain obvious. The things that bugs people the most is when she complains she has no time to do anything - but it is compounded when she asks how to do the same simple task over and over again.

As far as unfair dismissal (laws may be different in Australia than the US) no company wants to be dragged through the courts to defend their dismissal. It can be very costly and if it goes to media it could be a problem. In the media if a man is fired its just part of business. If a woman get fired she can claim discrimination, blah blah blah and all of a sudden the media blows it out of proportion and the company is doing damage control. Thats an advantage a woman CAN have over a male counterpart. Its easier and cheaper to keep a useless woman as the stakes are higher to get rid of them.

As for time keeping. Well I often trun up late, sometimes have long lunch breaks due to whatever, and sometimes leave early. However I get all my work done. When OT is required I'll do it. I just worked a project that averaged 60-70 hours a week for 3 months straight. No extra pay. Now I can take a bit more time for myself because I am getting the job done and to me thats the most important part. This is different, obviously, if you work a support job as you may be required for the entire day.

Thats my little rant over

strauchr

Oh yeah, to answer the absooute original question it is a YES. No ifs and buts its just a plain and simple YES!

SRTMCSE

strauchr wrote:

In the media if a man is fired its just part of business. If a woman get fired she can claim discrimination, blah blah blah and all of a sudden the media blows it out of proportion and the company is doing damage control. Thats an advantage a woman CAN have over a male counterpart.

Unfortunately that is one advantage that women have over men in almost all aspects of life. Reminds me of several law and order episodes where they discussed that a man making an accusation against a woman requires a pile of evidence but an accusation by a woman against a man (or in this case a company) can ruin everything they have.

I know women got the crappy end of the stick throughout the ages and maybe everything still isn't 100% but if women want to be treated equally as far as pay and credit goes, women need to be prepared to be treated equally in ALL aspects of life. That includes accountability for there action (or inactions) and pulling an equal workload. I know a lot of women do, but in my experience the majority don't. All they want is equal pay, NOT equal treatment. As Carlos Mencia (the comedian) said, "Women say they want to be treated as equals. No you don't. You want to be PAID as equals and treated like a lady."

strauchr

Well thats the trade off isn't it. You get paid like a man you work and get treated like a man.

You want to be treated like a lady then be prepared to give something else up, like money. You can't have it all.

Funny how there is no uproar of inequality of jobs for women in a profession like bricklaying isn't there. They all whinge about inequality in IT, politics, corporare jobs etc. but none of them whinge about roof tiling, brick laying or any other tough jobs.

Equality for EVERYTHING or be prepared to understand the fact that some things will always be unequal - for both sexes.

mikey_b

We have tons of females in my workplace, but there are only a few who are in technical roles. And they are qualified for they're jobs and do quite well for themselves, on equal footing with the men in the place. Except the women who seem to be stuck on the helpdesk, they don't want to be there and aren't as technical as they think they are. The other women are account managers and project managers and coordinators and other client facing roles and they do great, too. We just have a really great team environment with exception of a few bad apples.

porengo

Hmmm...it's interesting that none of the women on this forum has given their view point on this topic. Honestly, I wish they would.

TURTLEGIRL

Personally I would encourage women into the IT field. Women should be able to be given the same chances as the men. Also I tend to believe that it's always better to gain some technological insight from both parties. That is not to say that either party is better than the other, but to give the women the chance to prove themselves in the IT field. Thus this will prove more productive than just to select men alone.

Just my two cents worth

back to my psp (I'm teamed up with TIm Henman in the doubles) of pro tennis.!!!!