Do Certifications really mean you know your stuff?

Example if a network engineer or system admin have all the appropriate certification does that really mean they know how to do their job?

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gespenstern

Certs usually reflect basic things, rarely something in-depth, while actual work usually in-depth in specific areas required by organization your work for. Therefore there's always a learning curve when you start a new job somewhere.

Certs are actually not for you, their purpose is to convince other people who don't know you and see for the first time in their lives that you know something and capable of learning stuff. It's a quick and dirty way to assure alien's proficiency, pretty much the same how your education degree works. It doesn't prove much, but humanity so far didn't come up with anything better than this.

SpetsRepair

I am going to go with yes because the people that study for higher certification are in it for the long haul. I've worked and contracted with people who went down the bachelors route and they usually aren't up to date on everything. Certifications also allow for specialization and this is where you separate yourself from other people.

E Double U

Depends on each person. I knew a CCNP that could explain theory, but he never did well on the issues that were assigned to him. I only had a CCNA at the time and was kicking serious butt.

IIIMaster

To a degree yes... That cert should validate the tech knows best practice. In the real word you will find a lot issues that aren't cover in certs. It's the hands on experience and knowledge base you build that will make you elite. At the same time you should know best practice. So lets say a tech goes out and configure VM's and have no clue of best practices ...so he kinds wonder why everything is running sub optimal.

Codyy

Nothing more than a piece of paper with a name on it. You can study a **** file the night before and go ace almost every exam out there.

beads

Certs were designed with the thought to prove your mastery of a particular subject matter and have their history tied to the CPA (Certified Public Accountant) and Board Certification of medical doctors not academic doctors - don't get me started. Sounds cool right who doesn't want to be associated with some long standing respected body or organization like these professional organizations. Here is the legal requirements to a certified profession:

Major milestones which may mark an occupation being identified as a profession include:

an occupation becomes a full-time occupation
the establishment of a training school
the establishment of a university school
the establishment of a local association
the establishment of a national association
the introduction of codes of professional ethics
the establishment of state licensing laws

What we now see is the over use of certifications as an indicator of basic knowledge more succinctly entry level knowledge to a particular field no longer resembling the original intent except for being nothing but a weak imitation of the original purpose of the certification exam. Well, perhaps it does serve to render a good amount of money to other peoples pockets or small papers for one large certificate sized piece of paper. However you'd like to look at it.

So in truth no the gross value of certification is actually beginning to hurt the job seeker. The overuse and ease of which to obtain most of these pieces of paper drives down the sense or belief that the certificate holder knows enough to back the assertion of the certificate itself. In simpler words: I have become rather skeptical people know much of anything for which they speak and nothing about what they do. Add the thousands of possible certifications out there as a whole but by a certifying body or organization, not a PA or Professional Association. There's an important distinction between the two as well. Almost like buying an impressive trophy in a shop and putting it on one's mantle. Pay for play, anyone?

Why do I bring all this up? Well the most noticeable implication outside of my world wide infamy as the TechExams curmudgeon (*Applause*) is the increasing number of contract to hire positions instead of direct hire. Want to take swag as to why? Of course you already know I am about to blame certifications as being the main culprit and they are - too bad. I have spoken to many people who really know what they are talking about - seriously. Cool. Great. Problem is they have no idea what they are DOING. They talk the talk but can't walk the walk, so to say. Had lunch with a gentlemen earlier today that fit the bill perfectly and wanted an eye-popping salary for the price of lunch to boot.

Hey, now... there's a gig. Buy me lunch and I'll tell you how wonderful I really am! As an added bonus I'll throw in this handy, "I have no clue how to do anything useful detector". Absolutely F-R-E-E!! Can't beat fun for a good time, now can ya? But he is highly certified in his field!

Only certification outside of the PAs above I have much faith in anymore is that someone made money off the exam taker.

-b/eads

beads

SpetsRepair wrote: »

I am going to go with yes because the people that study for higher certification are in it for the long haul. I've worked and contracted with people who went down the bachelors route and they usually aren't up to date on everything. Certifications also allow for specialization and this is where you separate yourself from other people.

For about 10 percent of people in your field, probably. The rest not so much.

- b/eads

olaHalo

If the person actually studied for the exam and worked at it then yes.
If not then he either is lying about having the cert or cheated.

docrice

My blunt opinion - no. Certifications provide some structured learning and/or validation, but merely passing (assuming it was done legitimately) doesn't mean one knows his/her stuff, which in this context I refer to as being capable of getting the job done. Some certifications are tougher than others and therefore may provide better "proof" the someone knows the material, but the real world does not operate like a textbook. It's far more complicated, mixed with business processes, politics, budgets, collective staff skill sets and coordinative ability, and so on.

There's theory and best practices ... and then there are actual working environments which tend to be rather fragile because they typically end up being budgeted, designed, and built under less-than-ideal constraints. That's just how it is. There are too many variables to consider that training classes and certifications don't cover. Deploying, maintaining, upgrading, and troubleshooting under time pressure while being able to visualize the entire IT ecosystem and understanding the consequences of a config change requires a degree of foresight which normally only experience through trials and tribulations can provide.

Sometimes certified professionals are very good and know their stuff. And then there are certified professionals who are paper-chasers and lack actual persistence/tenacity to dig far enough to get the job done. I've interviewed too many xyzCPs to consider certifications as a serious attribute in evaluating a candidate's potential. Being certified isn't necessarily a bad thing as it shows interest and initiative (if at least to help market oneself), but highlighting that aspect of your professionalism too much and it makes me much more suspicious. I hold more GIAC certifications than most other GIAC-certified professionals, but it doesn't mean I hold myself in high regard. It just means I understood the material well enough at some point in time to manage a passing score.

Simply put, if someone were to think that their certifications makes them qualified for a position, I almost always find something which proves otherwise. A person's ability to be effective on the job has much more to do with having skills in logical reasoning, communication, research, adaptability, personal maturity, and planning. Technical chops are important, but in the grand scheme of things it's just one aspect of a person's value-add.

IT is a highly-dynamic field. That makes it exciting, but also a moving target with a lot of diversity. The certification route can certainly provide a guided path, but don't expect it to make you competent.

epcg

No they don't but there is some certs like Red Hat and well they do just depends on the cert. Experience is king then degree then certs.

dave330i

epcg wrote: »

No they don't but there is some certs like Red Hat and well they do just depends on the cert. Experience is king then degree then certs.

Always amusing when someone claims this. If experience is king, why are there so many bad <insert any profession or skill you like here>?

IIIMaster

Experience usually comes from labing, going through documentation, or collaborating with a higher tier tech.

TeKniques

I think the experience argument isn't a strong one either; I've seen some garbage from the people with "years" of experience. Although, I'm not advocating that certifications mean "you know your stuff" either ... it just depends on the person. Achievements can be a good measurement at times, but there is no silver bullet.

tahjzhuan

No silver bullet, but it should help separate the wheat.

JustFred

E Double U wrote: »

Depends on each person. I knew a CCNP that could explain theory, but he never did well on the issues that were assigned to him. I only had a CCNA at the time and was kicking serious butt.

I guess there's a reason why some people go to university while other go to technical college, one theorizes and the other implements. That's how it often works in the world. The guy you mentioned could be useful in a different role. I have met many such people. There's no shame there, everyone has their qualities.

Kai123

I'd say no.

NOC role where I work requires a CCNA, but maybe uses 10% of the knowledge. Everyone here is now certed up, extremely knowledgeable on the WAN side of things but any practical knowledge to LAN stuff would be cross-over knowledge from general experience.

Saying that, as soon as someone gets their CCNA they get a lot of job offers via Linkedin, even with no real experience of internal LAN experience.

I don't think its expected to know your stuff anyway. Brain-**** have muddied the water to much, but they at least get you the opportunity to prove you know the knowledge for the role your applying for.

Danielm7

beads wrote: »

What we now see is the over use of certifications as an indicator of basic knowledge more succinctly entry level knowledge to a particular field no longer resembling the original intent except for being nothing but a weak imitation of the original purpose of the certification exam.-b/eads

I was thinking about this just the other day. We all see it on different forums almost daily. Oh you have zero IT experience, get an MCSA/E and you'll find a job! But for most people in larger enterprises, can you even imagine someone with zero hands on experience who just passed a few tests to be given domain admin permissions and allowing them to go to town? Certs were originally designed to validate knowledge that you already had, like proving you were well versed / an expert in that topic. Now, not so much.

I know that goes against the advice a lot give here to people trying to break into the field, but a lot of the time I think people shoot too high in their cert recommendations when people don't yet have the background to support it.

thenjduke

This is how I feel about certifications. I feel the further you move up the certification train in one particular area and the higher certifications you get the more in depth theory you obtain. The situation is though you need to apply that theory in real world. The more years you work with a product the more you become a expert and start to specialize in that area. To give you a understand I am a Citrix / VMware / HyperV specialist. I work with all three products and hold the top certifications for these items except VMware which I am working towards. I feel pretty confident any of these three products I work with I can diagnose and build and design around.

636-555-3226

Certifications help to show two things for me
1) that if we have 2 people applying for the job and they're equal in every regard except one person has some certs then that tips the balance in their favor, because
2) it (hopefully) shows that the person enjoys learning new things and challenging themselves. I personally love doing certs because I always end up learning new things, new process, or new approaches to things. Then again, I'm a lifetime student and like to meet and work with like-minded people.

joelsfood

Certifications serve only to get you past first culling by HR/searchbot/etc. Then you need to prove your knowledge/skills, whether during interview, hands on test, or actually proving yourself on the job. They serve a purpose, they prove nothing. Even something like CCIE/VCDX, to some extent, only prove that you are able to provide solutions and proofs that answer it way proctor/board are willing to accept and are looking for. They do not prove that you will be able to handle a particular situation or problem without help.

mackenzae

In my mind Certs show one thing. You are willing to invest time to learn about something, it doesn't mean you are an expert by any means but you dove into a topic and tested on the knowledge. Prior to the internet / brain **** it might have meant something a bit more to others but not anymore in my eyes. Even while I am studying for the CCIE Written I even question the validity of these expert level certs after reading about the shenanigans that are going on with people failing them on purpose to get the questions to host bootcamps for others so they can practice labbing with the actual exam. I'm not putting down the hard work others have done, but a select few are still working to muddy these sacred waters as well.

koz24

It shouldn't matter that others are dumping to get their certs. All it means is that any legit employer will conduct extremely difficult technical interviews to screen dumpers. Dumpers won't pass these interviews, but legitimate people will. So the companies that get screwed by dumpers and then complain about it have only themselves to blame for either not having a competent hiring process or being clueless/dumpers themselves. Dumpers being led by dumpers deserve each other. Recruiters do get screwed by dumpers because their time gets wasted, but the filtering should be done by the company.

To me all a cert is a structured path to get a certain level of knowledge. It automatically doesn't prove anything. But I could pass even the hardest of CCNA interviews because I study the hell out of the blueprint. Sure it takes me longer, but I think it's worth it in the end.

olaHalo

koz24 wrote: »

It shouldn't matter that others are dumping to get their certs. All it means is that any legit employer will conduct extremely difficult technical interviews to screen dumpers. Dumpers won't pass these interviews, but legitimate people will. So the companies that get screwed by dumpers and then complain about it have only themselves to blame for either not having a competent hiring process or being clueless/dumpers themselves. Dumpers being led by dumpers deserve each other. Recruiters do get screwed by dumpers because their time gets wasted, but the filtering should be done by the company.

To me all a cert is a structured path to get a certain level of knowledge. It automatically doesn't prove anything. But I could pass even the hardest of CCNA interviews because I study the hell out of the blueprint. Sure it takes me longer, but I think it's worth it in the end.

I know this goes against the common beliefs of this forum but many people who use brain **** actually do know their stuff.
Its not uncommon for some to study the textbooks, lab, watch videos, and learn the exam/test material and then look over **** to learn what the exam might ask. And then take the test.

Im aware of this because everytime I have been studying for a cert Ill have coworkers tell me to do it that way. And the guys telling me to do it usually know the topic way more than I do.

I dont agree with this at all.
My point was that "dumpers" are usually not people who just study a **** and take the test.

networker050184

dave330i wrote: »

Always amusing when someone claims this. If experience is king, why are there so many bad <insert any profession or skill you like here>?

I don't see how some people being bad at their jobs changes the fact companies want experienced people. Of course there are exceptions to everything in life.

E Double U

olaHalo wrote: »

I know this goes against the common beliefs of this forum but many people who use brain **** actually do know their stuff.
Its not uncommon for some to study the textbooks, lab, watch videos, and learn the exam/test material and then look over **** to learn what the exam might ask. And then take the test.

Im aware of this because everytime I have been studying for a cert Ill have coworkers tell me to do it that way. And the guys telling me to do it usually know the topic way more than I do.

I dont agree with this at all.
My point was that "dumpers" are usually not people who just study a **** and take the test.

Good point!

When I was in the SOC the manager told one of the senior engineers that he had to get his CCSA. His response was tell him the deadline and he'll **** the exam the day before. He did not respect multiple choice exams and at that level in his career did not see a need to study for them. I guess you can be that way when you're one of the best guys on a team that was spread across four countries.

networker050184

We aren't going to discuss **** here. It's cheating. It's wrong. End of discussion.

kohr-ah

Yes and No.

I want to say it gives you the knowledge on knowing things to look for and how to configure but doesn't mean you know how to do it in a production environment. I have met CCIEs that couldn't explain basic things to me and have met CCNA/CCNP people who can run circles around some of the most certified people I have ever met.

Besides if they dumped (agreed cheating) I do say it does show they have taken time out of their lives to study for something to further themselves which means something to me.

kurosaki00

Of course! I took 3 accounting classes in college years ago and passed the classes.
I'm basically a CPA right?

echo_time_cat

Yeah, there are people working with/for me that have higher certs than me, but struggle to identify what I would call basic issues. They just lack the experience, and will get there in time.

I've seen some with certs, but not hands on experience, try to use their theoretical knowledge when troubleshooting, and dig themselves into a pretty big hole. It's like the theoretical knowledge, when lacking experience, over-rules common sense.

I'd say it only means something if the cert matches the experience. If there is no experience on a resume, but nice looking certs, they'd better have an awesome home lab...

bpenn

I WISH that I could cert up to prove that I was an experienced professional. But I am not very experienced. Instead, my only hope for a job is to obtain a cert. I want to be a network engineer but that will NEVER happen where I live unless I have a CCNA and 3-5 years experience. In relation to what beads said, nowadays you have certs to bypass filters and grab entry level jobs instead of to prove that you are an experienced professional. The purpose of obtaining certs for me is proving to employers that I have the THEORY down but not necessarily the full application of said knowledge. Also, it is highly competitive in my area and I need every edge I can get against the competition.