SANS MSISE a good bet if you could get it for free?

JoJoCal19 · December 2015

I've seen the few threads on TE regarding the SANS MSISE, but wanted to approach the topic from a different angle. I'm finishing up the WGU MSISA in the next few months, and I'm really not happy with my experience. I don't feel I've learned much and overall just not happy with it. I hadn't planned on pursuing another Master's until I go for my MBA at some point (was thinking about a BSCS actually), but today I had an interesting conversation with our Director of Security.

I've been with our company for just over a year and this morning he paid for my third SANS Work Study class. He's also covering all out of state travel (I'll be facilitating SEC504 at SANS Security East 2016 in New Orleans). After we were done with that, he asked if I were thinking of a Master's degree. I told him about my MSISA and that I wasn't happy with it. He essentially told me that I should go for the SANS MSISE, and that between them covering the classes via Work Study, and the tuition reimbursement for the non-cert courses, the degree shouldn't cost me anything.

That really got me to thinking. From what I understand STI students get first dibs on Work Study assignments. I hold the GSEC, am about to take the GCIA, and will be doing the GCIH early next year. STI will let you transfer in classes taken within the previous 2 years and then do the corresponding Gold Paper. That's 3 cert courses done, with 5 left to do. My work will pay for me to do them via Work Study. The non-cert courses are $1250/credit hour, so there's a few of them at .5, 1, and 2 credit hours. I can cover the costs up front and then get reimbursed on those up to $5500 a year. I figure if I start early next year, I could be done in two years or less, and zero cost to me. I'd have 8 regular GIAC certs (GSEC, GCIH, GCIA, GCCC, GCPM, GPEN, GXPN, GWAPT), and the GSE. That's pretty solid.

So what say you, if you could do it for free and you weren't planning on it originally, would you pursue the MSISE? If I went this route I would not be opting to do a BSCS later on. Do you think the SANS MSISE would look better to hiring managers than a BSCS? I don't need to decide anytime real soon, but I'm going back and forth on it, at this point like 60% in favor of the MSISE only due to the fact that the BSCS will require like 8 math and physics classes for me.

philz1982 · December 2015

With what you're interested in a Free GSE makes sense. I will flip the question on you. Why wouldn't you get your MSISE since it is free?

the_Grinch · December 2015

They are accredited and if it were free I would take it without question. No one would argue if the training is top notch as everyone the world over knows it is. My argument has always been if given the choice between Carnegie Mellon University and SANS (when they are the same price - if you are a government employee) you would not choose SANS. But if it is completely paid for where as Carnegie Mellon isn't then I'd do it.

Danielm7 · December 2015

Agree with the others, it's free, the question is more "why not" then "should I?"

As for the BSCS, you mean a BS in CompSci, right? If so, I'd say with a BS already, a ton of work experience, a pile of certs, an MS already, I don't really see the benefit of another BS in CS. I know CS isn't strictly "IT", but you're far past the level of needing BS credentials to make a hiring decision at this point.

JoJoCal19 · December 2015

philz1982 wrote: »

With what you're interested in a Free GSE makes sense. I will flip the question on you. Why wouldn't you get your MSISE since it is free?

The reasons I can think of against it basically comes down to 1) 3+ speaking engagements to present research/Gold Papers, 2) Gold Papers (after WGU I'm tired of writing, albeit the Gold Papers would actually be fun and on topics of my own choosing), 3) The opportunity cost of getting a comp sci degree (I'll explain my desire to do a comp sci degree below).

the_Grinch wrote: »

They are accredited and if it were free I would take it without question. No one would argue if the training is top notch as everyone the world over knows it is. My argument has always been if given the choice between Carnegie Mellon University and SANS (when they are the same price - if you are a government employee) you would not choose SANS. But if it is completely paid for where as Carnegie Mellon isn't then I'd do it.

Agree if it were between choosing degrees at the same cost, I'd go for the more prestigious.

Danielm7 wrote: »

Agree with the others, it's free, the question is more "why not" then "should I?"

As for the BSCS, you mean a BS in CompSci, right? If so, I'd say with a BS already, a ton of work experience, a pile of certs, an MS already, I don't really see the benefit of another BS in CS. I know CS isn't strictly "IT", but you're far past the level of needing BS credentials to make a hiring decision at this point.

As for the "why not" I put that under philz' post. My reason for wanting a comp sci degree is two-fold. First, I really want to learn how to solve problems and create solutions. This is where comp sci comes in. Being able to solve problems with math, algorithms, programming. I know comp sci is theory heavy, but programming and software engineering is still a part of the degrees I've looked at, and I really want to learn to program and create solutions (I understand I can learn the latter on my own). The second reason is that a lot of jobs that I peg as my goal/dream jobs ask first and foremost for CS degrees. Without one, I feel that I could be losing out on these jobs to other candidates that have one. I don't have any empirical evidence to back that up, it's just a feeling that I have.

LionelTeo · December 2015

JoJoCal19 wrote: »

The second reason is that a lot of jobs that I peg as my goal/dream jobs ask first and foremost for CS degrees.

It depends if your dream job involves programming. If it does, then a CS may help, don't expect a lot. Because real work experience is what that counts. If your dream job is other type of cybersecurity work, then your on the right track. I don't even have a degree and no one cares about that.

The reasons I can think of against it basically comes down to 1) 3+ speaking engagements to present research/Gold Papers, 2) Gold Papers (after WGU I'm tired of writing, albeit the Gold Papers would actually be fun and on topics of my own choosing), 3) The opportunity cost of getting a comp sci degree (I'll explain my desire to do a comp sci degree below).

Do expect gold papers to drain a lot more energy. The difficulty of completing gold papers and speaking engagements would largely depends on your work experience.

philz1982 · December 2015

DSU, where I go and am currently pursuing three Masters degrees, has an applied computer science degree that will cost you 12k over 2 years. I've taken two of the applied science classes and so far we have.

Done C++ MPI and CUDA programming, setup async and sync programs in C++/Java/C#. Installed, configured and used HBase, MogoDB, Riak, CouchDB, Redis, and NEO4j

It's pretty hands on if you're looking for comp sci. Then it transitions, if you want, to the DSC Cyber Security CS, which has you building exploits and doing core X86/64 and Web App penetration. DSU's focus is on software development for cyber security.

Rumblr33 · December 2015

Scrap the idea of getting a BSCS. With your experience and the certs you already have, the SANS MSISE sounds to be more aligned with your goals. At this point, I don't believe another Bachelor's degree will do you any justice. On the other hand, an MSISE along with your MSISA, is more than enough for now and even in senior management positions. If your employer is going to pay for it, DO IT.

636-555-3226 · December 2015

Honestly after glancing over all of the security master's degrees, the only one that I've seen that may actually be valuable would be SANS since it teaches you real-life skills. The curriculum for the other half dozen I've reviewed is just more basic blah blah blah book stuff. Not saying the others aren't worth it, but if I was going to pay for my guys to get a masters and they were on the fence between a few, I'd steer them towards SANS.

And yes, you're silly if you don't take as many free SANS classes as possible. They'll pay dividends over time.

tonyz90 · December 2015

JoJoCal19 wrote: »

I've seen the few threads on TE regarding the SANS MSISE, but wanted to approach the topic from a different angle. I'm finishing up the WGU MSISA in the next few months, and I'm really not happy with my experience. I don't feel I've learned much and overall just not happy with it. I hadn't planned on pursuing another Master's until I go for my MBA at some point (was thinking about a BSCS actually), but today I had an interesting conversation with our Director of Security.

I've been with our company for just over a year and this morning he paid for my third SANS Work Study class. He's also covering all out of state travel (I'll be facilitating SEC504 at SANS Security East 2016 in New Orleans). After we were done with that, he asked if I were thinking of a Master's degree. I told him about my MSISA and that I wasn't happy with it. He essentially told me that I should go for the SANS MSISE, and that between them covering the classes via Work Study, and the tuition reimbursement for the non-cert courses, the degree shouldn't cost me anything.

That really got me to thinking. From what I understand STI students get first dibs on Work Study assignments. I hold the GSEC, am about to take the GCIA, and will be doing the GCIH early next year. STI will let you transfer in classes taken within the previous 2 years and then do the corresponding Gold Paper. That's 3 cert courses done, with 5 left to do. My work will pay for me to do them via Work Study. The non-cert courses are $1250/credit hour, so there's a few of them at .5, 1, and 2 credit hours. I can cover the costs up front and then get reimbursed on those up to $5500 a year. I figure if I start early next year, I could be done in two years or less, and zero cost to me. I'd have 8 regular GIAC certs (GSEC, GCIH, GCIA, GCCC, GCPM, GPEN, GXPN, GWAPT), and the GSE. That's pretty solid.

So what say you, if you could do it for free and you weren't planning on it originally, would you pursue the MSISE? If I went this route I would not be opting to do a BSCS later on. Do you think the SANS MSISE would look better to hiring managers than a BSCS? I don't need to decide anytime real soon, but I'm going back and forth on it, at this point like 60% in favor of the MSISE only due to the fact that the BSCS will require like 8 math and physics classes for me.

I will also be at SANS Security East 2016 in New Orleans as a facilitator! I see you have a gator in your avatar, where abouts are you from? :P

And what company do you work for?

OctalDump · December 2015

I would. The only downside is the work involved, and the papers you need to do. It also has the very big upside that even if you don't complete it, you are getting GIACs all along the way.

I'm not sure if SANS will give you any credit for your WGU MSISA. They should, but they mightn't.

I had similar choice to make last year between a Bachelor and Master program, and chose neither. Instead, I'm just filling the gaps that I would have had filled. Probably go back and do another Master's in a couple of years (or sooner if I find an employer willing to pay for it).

Segovia · December 2015

Considering the fact that a student in the MSISE program will spend around $50k on this degree, yes I think it is worth it.

rudegeek · December 2015

If I'm reading this correctly: You can only waive two courses? I had heard it was 9 credits or so??? Might be worth looking into.
GIAC Certifications
The SANS Technology Institute will grant a waiver to a student from the requirements within course to complete both a relevant SANS Institute class and GIAC exam if the student has taken and passed the relevant GIAC exam within the past three years. Waivers for GIAC certifications achieved without having taken the relevant SANS Institute class ("GIAC Challenges") will be subject to, and contribute to, the existing limit of two GIAC Challenges allowed. Similar to above, a student receiving such a waiver must complete any required associated Gold Papers prior to proceeding with additional courses within the program. For example, an MSISE student who within the past three years has taken the GIAC GSEC exam will be granted a waiver from the requirements of ISE 5100 from having to retake the SANS Institute's SEC 401 class and GIAC GSEC exam but, nevertheless, in this instance, such a student would still be required to complete and pass the required GSEC Gold Paper requirement in order to receive credit for ISE 5100.

rudegeek · December 2015

Actually I found this: http://www.sans.edu/downloads/guide_to_waivers.pdf

Waivers may be granted for up to, but not more than, one-quarter(25%) of the total number of credit hours or credit-hour equivalents required by the program.

SANS MSISE a good bet if you could get it for free?

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