is it just me or did SANS jack up its prices

iamus

I took a SANS course last year, specifically FOR 408 and I remember the price was somewhere in the range of $4500. And this was sometime around last May. I check the prices now and they've reached $5620!! even the GIAC exam attempts increased. Am I missing something or did they just increase the prices ??

cyberguypr

Totally normal. Prices go up all the time. My first work study was $800. They are at $900 right now. It's no secret that SANS loves $$$.

TechGromit

I was thinking the same thing, if you look at an Internet Achieve website you can see what SANS was charging for training in the past.

In the June of 2000, a GSEC course would cost you $1,595 with the exam included, with inflation, that number should be $2,200 today, but the course was only a three days, 8 hours a day, for a cost of $66 an hour. With inflation, that's $91 today.

In 2004, the GSEC was $2995 without the exam and the course was a six, 8 hour days, to a total training of 48 hours for $62 a hour or $78.80 today.

The current sans GSEC course of 60 hours long, at $5,620 that works out to $93.66 an hour, but the Exam attempt will run you another $675.

While SANS training was never cheap, I think the updated course content they are adding as well as extending the length of training more than makes up for the cost increases. The CompTIA material is updated every three years, SANS courses on the other hand are updated several times a year.

I thought once the GSEC and GHIC certifications were accepted by the DOD Defense Directive 8570.1 2004 there would be a considerable cost increases for SANS courses, but I found no evidence of that.

josh.armentrout1

The other thing to consider about attending a SANS event is the SANS at Night talks. Also you have the ability to ask the other instructors questions during break time or after class. They have great material which I have referred back to plenty of times. But yes, I feel your pain at the bottom line.

Danielm7

I took FOR408 last year, I swore it was 4999 without the exam. Either way, it's very expensive. I'm not knocking on the quality of the class at all, but over 1K a day for training is a lot to swallow.

TechGromit

Danielm7 wrote: »

I took FOR408 last year, I swore it was 4999 without the exam. Either way, it's very expensive. I'm not knocking on the quality of the class at all, but over 1K a day for training is a lot to swallow.

In of May 2015, the FOR408 was $5,150 for early registration, currently the course is $5,650. I can find no difference in the course material included or length of the course between the two dates.

I guess it cost more because they can. It however raises an interesting question, how high can the prices go before students (and companies) refuse to pay. After all a CISSP course costs less than $4,000 with a CISSP Certification Exam Voucher included and more recognized security certification. In the future this may change, but CISSP pretty much remains the gold standard at the moment. If I type in some of the SANS certs into Dice.com for my local area, I get 14 hits, with CISSP, it's 36 hits.

Danielm7

Yep, and to be fair the CISSP is easier to self study for than a lot of the SANS courses from what I've seen. My CISSP exam was 599, maybe 100 total in prep study materials and when I keep up my CUs I won't have to retake the exam every few years. I look at the SANS courses as really good training but I'm less excited about the actual certs on my resume, the CISSP is the opposite.

636-555-3226

They'll keep upping the charges every year simply because they can. Can you identify anybody else in their business? It's essentially a monopoly. Yeah, I know, there's training classes for CISSP, Security+, eLearnSecurity, etc, but nobody really does it like SANS does. Until someone does, they'll charge whatever they want and people will pay it. Not saying that's a good thing, it's just how capitalism works. Only bad part is they're pricing out small- and medium-businesses, but from what I've seen at training conferences they aren't hurting for business yet.

cyberguypr

^ This. I see people on Reddit fiercely complain about SANS pricing all the time, even calling it a scam. Some people say you can get the same level of training from Udemy for $10 (yeah right). I fail to understand their logic. True, you could technically gain similar knowledge on your own, but how long is it going to take? Will you have someone to assist you? Will you have a structured full functioning lab? All of this is the space of 5-6 days? Most likely not.

In a nutshell, they have ZERO serious competition, top quality instructors, and fresh material. And before I forget, they cater a lot to corporations, .gov, and .mil where cost is not really an issue. Al of the above allow them to price their courses at whichever rate the market will bear. The fact that the security industry is growing like crazy is just icing on the cake.

SaSkiller

get the same level of training from Udemy for $10 (yeah right)

It isn't that far fetched. The material isnt particularly special, its simply compressed and put in one place. And presented well. I've seen other providers teach similar material in a digestible way, the issue is that they aren't well known, they certainly don't have the program behind them that SANS does.

UnixGuy

Damit not again. It's freakin expensive, and with the Australian dollars going down, they're even more expensive...10K AUD per course..NO

Danielm7

As a few other people mentioned, it's priced for large corps and military budgets. Even then it's a hard sell at the fortune 500 I work at. I've gotten them to cover classes, but it's not easy. Last year they did budgeting to try to get a SANS course for each security person for the year, now with the costs going up it's harder to plan for.

Ac3

As far as i know, it is more expensive this time.
Still good the Workstudy program is still the same.

cwelber

Being a SANS instructor must pay well. If you have 30 students paying an average of $5000 each for a week that's $150,000. Even if you minus out say $100,000 for expenses, and $25,000 for the school. $25,000 (heck even $10,000 to $15,000 for a weeks work is more then most of us make in a good month).

On the other hand I think a lot is expected of the instructor for that kind of money. SANS is a great organization with wonderfully talented and cool people involved with it, and a example of a successful organization. I will never take a SANS class most likely as my employer doesn't cover any education out of pocket, I paid for my own CISSP. I would need to win the lottery to justify paying out of pocket. You can learn a lot of what's taught in class on your own, but you have to be very self-motivated. I love the security webinars where we get tidbits, I wish they had a junior (i.e. one day version of some of the classes for $600 to $800 which I could afford); but from a business point of view why would they do that when the classes almost always sell out.

cyberguypr

cwelber, have you seen the work study program that Ac3 mentioned? It's $900 for the physical class, On Demand version, MP3s, and one attempt at the corresponding exam.

renacido

Danielm7 wrote: »

As a few other people mentioned, it's priced for large corps and military budgets. Even then it's a hard sell at the fortune 500 I work at. I've gotten them to cover classes, but it's not easy. Last year they did budgeting to try to get a SANS course for each security person for the year, now with the costs going up it's harder to plan for.

^ This.

When I see a member of this forum with several GIAC certs, I know with 95% certainty they work in the mil/gov sector. SANS has priced themselves out of reach for nearly everyone else. Most companies won't pay that for training unless they're in the immediate aftermath of a security breach and suddenly have a windfall from their BoD throwing money at the problem, but executives have very short term memory when it comes to security risk and soon after they're back to expecting their security pro's to bring all the expertise they'll ever need with them when they're hired.

I am glad to see military guys get the best training available, just wish it were so when I was on Active Duty. Unfortunately for me I had bosses who believed (quite wrongly) that providing training like SANS would make you too marketable in the private sector to retain in the military. I see this in the private sector too, if you ask for training they assume it's to pad your resume for getting a better job elsewhere. I try to tell them that prviding for professional development needs is a strong incentive to stay with the company, but sometimes that falls on deaf ears.

TechGromit

renacido wrote: »

When I see a member of this forum with several GIAC certs, I know with 95% certainty they work in the mil/gov sector.

I work for a major utility and they have been paying for SANS training, I know co-workers that been to two or three courses, however very few of them bothered attempt the certification. I have SANS 504 lined up in 2 weeks, but unless I can land a facilitator gig, I doubt I'll be back next year for another SANS course. Cheap gas and oil prices are applying a lot of financial challenges to my industry.

JasminLandry

UnixGuy wrote: »

Damit not again. It's freakin expensive, and with the Australian dollars going down, they're even more expensive...10K AUD per course..NO

Same thing for the Canadian dollar. I'm looking at doing the RHCSA exam but I'm waiting for the dollar to go up a bit. The exam is 400$ US but it's 550$ CAD! It's an extra 150$ which is still a lot.

chrisone

It cost money to join an exclusive club.

Check your local country club.....

chanakyajupudi

As someone already mentioned. Work Study is a very good option for those who have to pay out of pocket. It is significantly cheaper but there are other costs such as time off and travel.

I have done 4 Work Studies till date. And one Self Study. I have paid for all of them myself. And I have traveled far for the courses as none happen in New Zealand!

impelse

Man, how do you get work study approval, I applied to several of those and I always got rejection

chanakyajupudi

It has been getting harder. I have not gotten any in the last year. Or even this year till date. I have been on the waitlist a few times though.

Looks like there is a lot of competition.

Ac3

yes. as far as i know, there are a lot of competition. My first attempt went to Waiting LIst. My second request passed and took my first work study.

This time i tried to apply again and with luck, I was able to join.

There are a lot of dependencies as far as i know. The more courses they will offer on that region, the higher chance. Just try and try. They also give priority to those who joined the work study before.

alias454

SaSkiller wrote: »

It isn't that far fetched. The material isnt particularly special, its simply compressed and put in one place. And presented well. I've seen other providers teach similar material in a digestible way, the issue is that they aren't well known, they certainly don't have the program behind them that SANS does.

I know this is not a popular point of view but I have to agree that the cost is hard to justify. I didn't have the famous Dr Cole (that might have been totally worth it after listening to the audio files of one of his training classes). I had a guy teaching that was a great. he was knowledgeable and friendly but overall, I found the content to be of lesser quality than what I expected. I'm not saying it was bad but some of it was definitely out of date and much more out of date than a few months or even a year. Of course I didn't expect to unlock secret magic that only SANS training event participants somehow now hold but I did expect to feel dumb the whole time, which was not the case.

What SANS does do right is packaging it all up in a nice bundle that you start on day one with and walk through til day six (although for 5k the books could have been printed in color -- I know that's a nitpick). I did not go to one of the big conferences, which might affect my perception a little on the overall experience. However, my criticism of the content still stands. I participated in a GSEC course. It could be that I was already at a level where the GSEC was more review than a great learning experience. To be clear, I did learn a few things so it wasn't a waste.

alias454

renacido wrote: »

^ This.
if you ask for training they assume it's to pad your resume for getting a better job elsewhere. I try to tell them that prviding for professional development needs is a strong incentive to stay with the company, but sometimes that falls on deaf ears.

This is true I think. Last December, my company paid for me to take a SANS course and it definitely makes me feel more appreciated. There are some people that take advantage of those things but they are far and few in between.

alias454

chrisone wrote: »

It cost money to join an exclusive club.

Check your local country club.....

Difference is everyone in town knows the country club is exclusive.

UnixGuy

chanakyajupudi wrote: »

... And I have traveled far for the courses as none happen in New Zealand!

Where did you have to travel?

TechGromit

impelse wrote: »

Man, how do you get work study approval, I applied to several of those and I always got rejection

I wonder if it has to do with the fact that chanakyajupudi has some SANS certifications and you have none. Is it more likely that SANS would select someone that has attended SANS courses in the past, than someone that never has attended one.

chanakyajupudi

Australia / US / India

I had really followed up with the Regional Sales Manager the first time I tried. And then it started working out. But I have been trying to get one in Australia since the last year. Need to re-certify. Thought I'd get some new courses done via the Work study to satisfy the requirement.

Have been put on the wait list three times but no confirmation.

Its getting harder for sure!

BillHoo

Ac3 wrote: »

As far as i know, it is more expensive this time.
Still good the Workstudy program is still the same.

... not only that, they don't have muffins and bagels waiting for you before the class anymore! Only at the mid-morning and afternoon breaks! At least coffee is still available at all times.

BillHoo

Don't know about instructor pay, but I think I read somewhere that the mentorship program for all the effort only gets you $1500 for 10 weeks of evening sessions and you have to get your own students to pay the fees.

I heard from a SANS instructor that SANS has had to pumped a lot of $$ into the mentorship program because not everyone who is qualified, is a good teacher, and there are many things that can go wrong (illness, life issues, etc.) so they have had to fly SANS instructors to save an occasional failing mentor program.

cwelber wrote: »

Being a SANS instructor must pay well. If you have 30 students paying an average of $5000 each for a week that's $150,000. Even if you minus out say $100,000 for expenses, and $25,000 for the school. $25,000 (heck even $10,000 to $15,000 for a weeks work is more then most of us make in a good month).

On the other hand I think a lot is expected of the instructor for that kind of money. SANS is a great organization with wonderfully talented and cool people involved with it, and a example of a successful organization. I will never take a SANS class most likely as my employer doesn't cover any education out of pocket, I paid for my own CISSP. I would need to win the lottery to justify paying out of pocket. You can learn a lot of what's taught in class on your own, but you have to be very self-motivated. I love the security webinars where we get tidbits, I wish they had a junior (i.e. one day version of some of the classes for $600 to $800 which I could afford); but from a business point of view why would they do that when the classes almost always sell out.