SANS Prices up again

Based on previous disucssions the new pricing is for courses after 1/1/18. If you taken then by 12/31/17 it would still be 5,910.

SANS pricing is the epitome of Adam Smith's Invisible Hand Theory at work.

NetworkNewb

SANS price up again. Just another Monday.

beads

These people need to retire sometime!

-b/eads

JoJoCal19

It's a shame honestly. When they were like $5k I was willing to self pay for a few that were really specialized (FOR610 for example). But not anymore. I'm also still pissed they jacked up the challenge price from like $1200 to $1700

I'm really interested in seeing just how willing employers are to keep paying the ever increasing prices. I'm also waiting for someone to come in and disrupt the market.

On the bright side, it makes you existing certifications that much more valuable, since fewer employers and students can afford to pay for them. On the down side, if SANS prices themselves out of the market, I could foresee DoDD 8570 replacing the GIAC certs with something else, the SCYBER is an new addition to the list. I think SANS is marketing mainly to the government, which has very deep pockets, from what I've seen, a good portion of the SANS students work for the government.

TechGuru80

TechGromit wrote: »

On the bright side, it makes you existing certifications that much more valuable, since fewer employers and students can afford to pay for them. On the down side, if SANS prices themselves out of the market, I could foresee DoDD 8570 replacing the GIAC certs with something else, the SCYBER is an new addition to the list. I think SANS is marketing mainly to the government, which has very deep pockets, from what I've seen, a good portion of the SANS students work for the government.

First, the market sets the price...most boot camps are somewhere between $3,000-6,000.

The government is unlikely to take GIAC out of 8570/8140 because the research and training that goes into SANS/GIAC is on such a superior level to other training. Look at GCIA...there isn’t any intrusion analysis course even out there...GPEN/GWAPT give you great material, compared to OSCP who gives you a foundation but leaves a lot of learning up to the individual (hence a cost difference).

There is no question SANS wants companies that can send people to their courses, but honestly a lot of people making over $100k hopefully can afford a course every few years....$2,000-7,000 per year investment into yourself isn’t that unreasonable...I think where people get lost is the courses aren’t priced for an early career person to self study, most people you see at the conferences are 4-5+ years experience.

TechGuru80 wrote: »

There is no question SANS wants companies that can send people to their courses, but honestly a lot of people making over $100k hopefully can afford a course every few years....$2,000-7,000 per year investment into yourself isn’t that unreasonable...

I would agree with that, but my company beginning to limit the number of SANS courses the department attends each year, and I work a Utility, they have fairly deep pockets when compared to a lot of other companies. So long as my employer is willing to pick up the tab, why should I pay? I can't say I'm making 100k+ yet, but I can see myself investing in a SANS course every few years out of my own pocket to keep the certs I have valid.

Don't forget about work study. I spent $1000 on the trainign and the rest in booze. WIN!

GirlyGirl

cyberguypr wrote: »

Based on previous disucssions the new pricing is for courses after 1/1/18. If you taken then by 12/31/17 it would still be 5,910.

SANS pricing is the epitome of Adam Smith's Invisible Hand Theory at work.

I just went through the purchase of a course and it shows $6,210 plain as a deer in an open field. We can't go off of discussions as creditable information. It is like believing everything someone says on this site. I just tested the theory. The next page is the payment page/Review Order. That price is effective immediately.

Interesting. Are you buying a physical course or OnDemand? I looked up SEC401 November 27 in San Francisco and it's 5,910. Same class in Austin December 4th is also 5,910. First class of 2018 is Reston January 15th and is the first one to show up at 6,210. i also noticed that OnDemand and vLive are already at 6,210.

TechGuru80

TechGromit wrote: »

I would agree with that, but my company beginning to limit the number of SANS courses the department attends each year, and I work a Utility, they have fairly deep pockets when compared to a lot of other companies. So long as my employer is willing to pick up the tab, why should I pay? I can't say I'm making 100k+ yet, but I can see myself investing in a SANS course every few years out of my own pocket to keep the certs I have valid.

Absolutely have your company pay whenever they are willing to...the $100k is more to point out mid level and higher should be capable to afford a course every so often to keep current and that the amount of material you get on a subject from SANS should be enough to keep one busy for the better part of a year to specialize instead of running around getting every cert possible....as you get higher it’s more about the quality than quantity.

Danielm7

Rants about it being overpriced aside, I really feel like the OnDemand courses should cost less than a live class. There is no way their costs to run the OnDemand are anywhere remotely close as they are for the live events but the people who can't travel to them have to pay the same rates.

As for the Work Study, in most areas the competition can be really high. I have a related degree, other certs, work in the security field and have taken a SANS course before. I've applied to a few and if I get picked it's always for my last ranked pick like the CISSP prep course or something I don't need and that no one else wants to do. Everyone always throws out the work study option but good luck just walking in and getting any of the more desired courses anywhere near any reasonable sized city.

The alternative here is enrolling in one of their graduate certificate programs. The tuition for each course is still $5k, and that covers exam attempts. Also; I think you can do a one-off grad course (SANS course) without being enrolled.

https://www.sans.edu/admissions/tuition

Edit: further clarification on the one-offs: "[FONT=&quot]An individual may take up to two courses as a non-degree seeking student prior to enrolling in a formal course of studies. Tuition for a single course is $5,250, regardless of the credit hours earned for that course. Tuition includes the cost of the course, text books, and certification tests that serve as mid-term or final exams for graduate courses."[/FONT]

I have a feeling that one of two things will happen: they will raise prices for that single course option or introduce some sort of exclusion/limitation. Knowing how they roll if that doesn't happen it means someone fell asleep at the wheel over there.

cyberguypr wrote: »

I have a feeling that one of two things will happen: they will raise prices for that single course option or introduce some sort of exclusion/limitation. Knowing how they roll if that doesn't happen it means someone fell asleep at the wheel over there.

Can't argue with that. I do get the feeling that they want to make the school side of SANS more popular. So that may be a dilemma for them.

Randy_Randerson

mactex wrote: »

Can't argue with that. I do get the feeling that they want to make the school side of SANS more popular. So that may be a dilemma for them.

That is largely due to the increasing amount of veterans who are getting off military status and have the GI Bill and employers who are willing to do tuition reimbursement as opposed to training. Folks are screaming to high heaven about prices, but fail to remember many of the industry leaders are instructors there or assist in other ways as well. They know full well that training budgets are the first to get cut when quarterly earnings are at stake for private sector. For public sector, the federal government has been in a continuing resolution for a number of years: which means departments are not getting more money to spend...instead they have to cut somewhere which is typically training. Most of the states local government are broke as well. The one area that never fails to get money are degrees.

Randy_Randerson wrote: »

That is largely due to the increasing amount of veterans who are getting off military status and have the GI Bill and employers who are willing to do tuition reimbursement as opposed to training. Folks are screaming to high heaven about prices, but fail to remember many of the industry leaders are instructors there or assist in other ways as well. They know full well that training budgets are the first to get cut when quarterly earnings are at stake for private sector. For public sector, the federal government has been in a continuing resolution for a number of years: which means departments are not getting more money to spend...instead they have to cut somewhere which is typically training. Most of the states local government are broke as well. The one area that never fails to get money are degrees.

Concur with all. In fact; I am burning some of my GI bill doing it right now. GI Bill is paying for the courses and the company is paying the travel.

Randy_Randerson

mactex wrote: »

Concur with all. In fact; I am burning some of my GI bill doing it right now. GI Bill is paying for the courses and the company is paying the travel.

Exactly. Tie in most major companies and public sector have tuition reimbursement programs -- this is a win/win for your management and you as a person. They get cheaper than dirt training from a top tier entity since they'll only cover travel expenses and you get to travel and get some pretty awesome training and networking capabilities. Being completely candid, who do you think your leadership is going to allow travel for training? The one who is utilizing other aspects of money (whether TA Assistance, GI Bill, etc.) or the person that'll eat your entire departments training budget?

GirlyGirl

cyberguypr wrote: »

Interesting. Are you buying a physical course or OnDemand? I looked up SEC401 November 27 in San Francisco and it's 5,910. Same class in Austin December 4th is also 5,910. First class of 2018 is Reston January 15th and is the first one to show up at 6,210. i also noticed that OnDemand and vLive are already at 6,210.

OnDemand. That is why. I was going to email SANS but I decided against it. They are very welcoming and opening to working with you. I know from experience. Either way, two more certifications and I am done with SANS. I am just doing renewals from that point forward until life ends and I go be with the higher power.

Thank you Mr. Cyber

Have a wonderfulday.

GirlyGirl

Danielm7 wrote: »

Rants about it being overpriced aside, I really feel like the OnDemand courses should cost less than a live class. There is no way their costs to run the OnDemand are anywhere remotely close as they are for the live events but the people who can't travel to them have to pay the same rates.

As for the Work Study, in most areas the competition can be really high. I have a related degree, other certs, work in the security field and have taken a SANS course before. I've applied to a few and if I get picked it's always for my last ranked pick like the CISSP prep course or something I don't need and that no one else wants to do. Everyone always throws out the work study option but good luck just walking in and getting any of the more desired courses anywhere near any reasonable sized city.

It's a lot of political and who you know involved in WorkStudy. If you know the right people you'll get in.

Long story short, I facilitated at an event and the instructor had a female that works for his company facilitating. What a heck of a coincidence hugh? Granted, everyone goes to the event and kisses a little but to save thousands of dollars. They know that. They are not stupid. They know your purpose. I understand a little. But, If you are really in the in crowd and really connected, you will get any SANS training you want. That's a fact. No matter what course you apply for, 20 other people around the globe probably applied for it.

My first app I was accepted for like my second pick. Four or five apps later no response. That is why I am glad I have a great company. Work study adds up. I am sure I addressed this before but I'll jump on it again.

If you are not in driving distance of an event you might as well pay for the course. You have to get there a day early my event was small so we packed up the same day. Use the 6 day event. You are there 7 days. Leave more than likely on the 8th day. It might be a late night on the 7th. Eight days, times the most expensive hotel in town SANS stays in, we will use $200 a night. Forget the "discount" you get, only if you get accepted super early and not 2 weeks before....200 x 8 is 1600. Just for hotel fees. If you are cheap and want to stay in a hole-in-the-wall part of town help yourself. Not I.

1. So $1600 hotel.

2. If you have to fly, a roundtrip. XXX-XXXX

3. Rental car/taxi- unless you have no life and want to stay in your hotel and drink beers downstairs in the hotel lobby. So much fun I can't contain myself.

4. WorkStudy cost- XXXX

5. The money you are losing being away from work for 8 days. People ALWAYS forget the last part.

I could go on and on. The point I am getting at is sometimes WorkStudy is the chepaer option. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes it can come out to just about the same to purchasing OnDemand..sometimes purchasing OnDemand twice.

Danielm7

GirlyGirl wrote: »

1. So $1600 hotel.

2. If you have to fly, a roundtrip. XXX-XXXX

3. Rental car/taxi- unless you have no life and want to stay in your hotel and drink beers downstairs in the hotel lobby. So much fun I can't contain myself.

4. WorkStudy cost- XXXX

5. The money you are losing being away from work for 8 days. People ALWAYS forget the last part.

I could go on and on. The point I am getting at is sometimes WorkStudy is the chepaer option. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes it can come out to just about the same to purchasing OnDemand..sometimes purchasing OnDemand twice.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees this. I'll point it out often enough and everyone is like "Oh, you want to get into infosec, do the GCIA or GPEN at a SANS event for 1100, done!" They offer amazing training but the cost is getting crazy even for most company's training budgets. Between travel/hotel/food and the course it's hard to get management to buy into up to 10K per person every time they want to go to a week of training.

McxRisley

As we all know, SANS isn't the only infosec certification business in town. Just go all out CompTIA and all of your 8140 needs will be satisfied all the way up to IAM2. I get that people pay for the SANS material/training becuase it is good stuff but SANS isn't the only way to learn the skills/tools/techniques they cover.

Disclaimer - I'm not saying CompTIA is better in anyway, just saying there are cheaper options out there and also google/youtube.

GirlyGirl wrote: »

5. The money you are losing being away from work for 8 days. People ALWAYS forget the last part.

Assuming you work in Infosec already, I would expect your company to pay you while you do a training event. They pay you when they pay for and send you away for training, I would expect them to pay me for a training event I paid for out of my own pocket. I would omit the fact I'm working for someone else while training, I'd just tell them it's a 8 day training event.

GirlyGirl wrote: »

It's a lot of political and who you know involved in WorkStudy. If you know the right people you'll get in.

I made it a point to get to know some of the instructors at my last couple SANS events, I'm fairly certain one of the instructors I know would give me a recommendation to facilitate for the courses they teach, but they only teach a few courses, don't know if this will translate into being able to take courses they don't teach.

GirlyGirl wrote: »

... unless you have no life and want to stay in your hotel and drink beers downstairs in the hotel lobby. So much fun I can't contain myself.

Don't underestimate value the networking opportunities staying close to the hotel. Having just ordered dinner in the hotel lobby, I struck up a conversation with one of the instructors (wasn't even aware he was an instructor at the time) and ended sitting with him, eating dinner and had a good conversation. At another event I drank in the hotel lobby with several instructors, they remembered my name at the next SANS event. Just remember your there to learn and network, save the sight seeing crap for your vacations.

McxRisley

TechGromit wrote: »

Assuming you work in Infosec already, I would expect your company to pay you while you do a training event. They pay you when they pay for and send you away for training, I would expect them to pay me for a training event I paid for out of my own pocket. I would omit the fact I'm working for someone else while training, I'd just tell them it's a 8 day training event.

Some people are lucky rnough to have these benefits but the reality is that there are a ton of companies that dont do this or even offer enough training money per year to pay for a SANS course.

True, nothing that SANS does is proprietary or super secret. Now, find me another decent training with elite instructors, excellent labs, with corresponding certs, etc. I am seriously asking, because I've searched for alternatives and have come up empty handed. I've done all sorts of training and simply nothing compares to a SANS.

To TechGromit's points, I absolutely expect any decent employer that understands the value of security, the value of training, and the value of their employees to pay for time you spend on training that directly bnefits the company. It's not like people are going to macramé or crochet training. To me this is one of the signs that you may need a better employer.

+1 also on the networking. I knew absolutely no one when I got my First Work Study. I did get to know most of the coordinators and severla instructors so keeping those connections alive has helped land a total of 5 work study.

I also want to make a point that to ME one of the biggest value elements of SANS training is the conversations that happen in the classroom, at lunch, bar, etc. To me losing this to OnDemand is absolutely not worth it.

jamesleecoleman

I guess this would be a good reason for people to go ahead and do the just the test. I've been thinking about saving up for sans training but it's still expensive. I've even looked at workstudy and the on demand.

As far as taking the time off from work, there should be a something that has to do with personal development. I went to an infosec conference in my city and it was for PD. Still got paid for it.

If it comes down to it, you might have to get to know some people online and be willing to visit them or hang out with them when you're in town. Maybe they'll let you crash at this place. This is what I kinda did in Russia and it kinda worked out. Not saying to use people but its always great to network online and meet nice people who would be willing to help you out.

If you work in Infosec and your company is making you take PTO to attend a SANS conference; I would start looking elsewhere. Not joking.

cshkuru

mactex wrote: »

If you work in Infosec and your company is making you take PTO to attend a SANS conference; I would start looking elsewhere. Not joking.

In general I agree, but in the PacNW the market is dominated by contract employment and contractors aren't usually eligible for training by the company and the contracting company is almost never going to pay for it unless it's required - so until you can get on as a permanent employee you are kind of stuck. If that's the case go for the full boat at a sans conference so you can get the networking opportunities. I did that last year in Orlando and it is one of the reasons I was able to convert to an FTE slot I think.

As for the on-demand courses - The content is good but without the instructor SANS has some real balls charging as much as they do for classroom instruction. I told them that after I got my GICSP, they didn't seem too impressed by my suggestion.

I'm thinking maybe someone should start a slack channel for SANS on-demand course for the networking and to arrange local meetups and such. Someone who knows more about slack weigh in. I am not trying to pass the buck I just don't use it much.

cshkuru wrote: »

In general I agree, but in the PacNW the market is dominated by contract employment and contractors aren't usually eligible for training by the company and the contracting company is almost never going to pay for it unless it's required - so until you can get on as a permanent employee you are kind of stuck. If that's the case go for the full boat at a sans conference so you can get the networking opportunities. I did that last year in Orlando and it is one of the reasons I was able to convert to an FTE slot I think.

As for the on-demand courses - The content is good but without the instructor SANS has some real balls charging as much as they do for classroom instruction. I told them that after I got my GICSP, they didn't seem too impressed by my suggestion.

I'm thinking maybe someone should start a slack channel for SANS on-demand course for the networking and to arrange local meetups and such. Someone who knows more about slack weigh in. I am not trying to pass the buck I just don't use it much.

That's a good point. I had forgotten what it was like as a contractor. It's been a while. I was definitely referring to FTE.

I have done a couple of SANS On-Demand; and wholeheartedly agree that the quality is not on par with a live event. They should not be charging the same amount. Although some are better than others. I even hit them hard in my course feedback about this for one of the courses.