SANS Work Study Waitlist

NetworkNewbNetworkNewb They are watching youPosts: 3,262Member ■■■■■■■■■□
So those who have applied to do a work-study at a SANS and were told you were on a "waitlist", have any of you ever been notified that you were able to do it?

I was just notified I was a on a wait list, and I'm assuming I won't get to do it, but curious if anyone has gotten chosen after being told that.
GCIH | CCNA:Sec | Net+/Sec+/A+ | CCSK
Goals in progress: MSc in Computer Science (specializing in Cyber Ops) , CISSP

Comments

  • cyberguyprcyberguypr Senior Member Posts: 6,783Mod Mod
    Last year I was on a waitlist and got the call saying "you're it" the next day. Hopefully their #1 guy has issues and you get called icon_smile.gif
  • chrisonechrisone Senior Member Posts: 1,847Member ■■■■■■■■□□
    How did you guys go about applying for the work study program? Did you guys just email saying you would like to be part of the work study program for "these list of events" and for "these list of SANS courses" ?

    thanks
    2019 Goals:
    Courses: Real World Red Team Attacks- AppSec Cali 2019 (complete), Active Directory Attacks for Red and Blue Teams Advanced Edition - BlackHat (completed),
    Certs: Certified Red Team Professional - Pentester Academy (passed!), Azure Fundamentals AZ-900 (in progress), Azure Security Engineer Associate AZ-500
  • PC509PC509 CISSP, CEH, CCNA: Security/CyberOps, Sec+, CHFI, A+, Proj+, Server+, MCITP Win7, Vista, MCP Server 2 Oregon, USPosts: 770Member ■■■■■□□□□□
    https://www.sans.org/work-study

    Application link is towards the bottom after it tells you how it works. You get to select from events that you want to work for. (also, it was the first link on Google for "SANS work study").
  • chrisonechrisone Senior Member Posts: 1,847Member ■■■■■■■■□□
    PC509 wrote: »
    https://www.sans.org/work-study

    Application link is towards the bottom after it tells you how it works. You get to select from events that you want to work for. (also, it was the first link on Google for "SANS work study").

    Thanks for the link, I feel stupid now with your google emphasis.
    2019 Goals:
    Courses: Real World Red Team Attacks- AppSec Cali 2019 (complete), Active Directory Attacks for Red and Blue Teams Advanced Edition - BlackHat (completed),
    Certs: Certified Red Team Professional - Pentester Academy (passed!), Azure Fundamentals AZ-900 (in progress), Azure Security Engineer Associate AZ-500
  • NetworkNewbNetworkNewb They are watching you Posts: 3,262Member ■■■■■■■■■□
    cyberguypr wrote: »
    Last year I was on a waitlist and got the call saying "you're it" the next day. Hopefully their #1 guy has issues and you get called icon_smile.gif

    Nice! Got a sliver of hope now
    GCIH | CCNA:Sec | Net+/Sec+/A+ | CCSK
    Goals in progress: MSc in Computer Science (specializing in Cyber Ops) , CISSP
  • al88al88 GCIH, GCFA, GNFA, GCTI, GASF, GISP, Sec+ Dallas, TXPosts: 62Member ■■■□□□□□□□
    So those who have applied to do a work-study at a SANS and were told you were on a "waitlist", have any of you ever been notified that you were able to do it?

    I was just notified I was a on a wait list, and I'm assuming I won't get to do it, but curious if anyone has gotten chosen after being told that.

    I was placed on the waiting-list twice, both were 40 to 60 days before the event.

    One of them i was contacted by phone couple of weeks before asking if i can still make it and i confirmed and got in.

    And the other one I had to contact them myself since only one week left because I needed to make travel arrangements if i to be chosen.
    They told me almost all facilitators confirmed attending already. But I can still wait in-case of a last minute emergency/cancellation.. but I had to apologise and cancel my application.
  • Danielm7Danielm7 Posts: 2,246Member ■■■■■■■□□□
    I was on a waitlist for one recently and they contacted me less than a week before asking if I could do it, had to pass.
  • sb97sb97 Posts: 109Member
    I was put on a wait list. I was notified 9 days before the start of the event that I was being wait listed. Honestly, it kind of pissed me off that they waited so long to let me know.
  • TechGuru80TechGuru80 Posts: 1,539Member ■■■■■□□□□□
    sb97 wrote: »
    I was put on a wait list. I was notified 9 days before the start of the event that I was being wait listed. Honestly, it kind of pissed me off that they waited so long to let me know.
    I don’t think it really makes sense to get mad at them. They pick people for the classes and give a time window of when each person has to accept or decline, and then the move down the list if needed. They can’t really anticipate somebody declining so they can’t start moving down the list ahead of time. The process definitely favors people who are flexible, which means if you really want it you should be willing to apply to several events that might require travel. Of course, the more GIAC certifications you get and the more you do work study events, the better your chances are at being the first choice for courses.
  • johndoeejohndoee Posts: 134Member ■■■□□□□□□□
    TechGuru80 wrote: »
    I don’t think it really makes sense to get mad at them. They pick people for the classes and give a time window of when each person has to accept or decline, and then the move down the list if needed. They can’t really anticipate somebody declining so they can’t start moving down the list ahead of time. The process definitely favors people who are flexible, which means if you really want it you should be willing to apply to several events that might require travel. Of course, the more GIAC certifications you get and the more you do work study events, the better your chances are at being the first choice for courses.


    I am confused, disagree, and shocked at that reply.

    Some people on this board I assume have a (full time/salaried) job. People need more than a week or so to plan attending a SANS event. What if the individual is working on a big project. What if the individual has children, a single mother or father. Are we supposed to tell our boss we MIGHT need to take vacation. Are we supposed to tell our babysitter we might need a babysitter for a week. What if we apply for more than one. We are supposed to say hey, I might be taking leave (making up dates now) July 1-8 or July 10-17 or August 1-8 or August 12-19 or September 15-24 or November 12-19. We are supposed to tell our boss that? You just said apply to more than one.

    The WorkStudy qualifications for selection is not based solely on the number of GIAC certifications you hold and the number of WorkStudy events. Does it play a part yes, but not only based on those two qualifications. Here you go:

    All applications to the SANS Work Study Program are reviewed. A facilitator is selected based on the specific need at the training event. Selection is based on the following:
    1. Course(s) indicated on choice list
    2. Course enrollment
    3. Date of Application
    4. GIAC Certification - number of certificates held or membership on the Advisory Board
    5. SANS Mentor
    6. Previous performance rating
    7. Recommendation from SANS staff or instructor
    8. New applicants to the Work Study Program or to shadow a experienced facilitator
    https://www.sans.org/work-study/#qualification
    In my unbiased opinion, if a SANS instructor recommends you for a course it's just about guaranteed in my unbiased WorkStudy experience. I think that is number one.Either way..

    An individual can only be so flexible especially with a demanding full time job and/or a family. One week is simply just not enough time, as we can read above. People aren't able to negotiate time off the week prior. People can't take leave from a job for a "discounted" SANS rate and come back and be unemployed.

    When you are accepted to facilitate an event they give you a date in which to accept, purchase the "discounted" training rate, and purchase the hotel under the "discounted rate", if the rate had not already expired. I personally think that they should notify people a few weeks in advance at least. That gives the other people on the wait list a few weeks to make arrangements to attend. If you tell me a month in advance and give me a week to accept or decline and make a payment, the other name on the list still has three weeks to do the same. That just makes sense.
  • Danielm7Danielm7 Posts: 2,246Member ■■■■■■■□□□
    johndoee wrote: »
    . What if we apply for more than one. We are supposed to say hey, I might be taking leave (making up dates now) July 1-8 or July 10-17 or August 1-8 or August 12-19 or September 15-24 or November 12-19. We are supposed to tell our boss that? You just said apply to more than one.
    For what it's worth, I have lots of the constraints you mentioned. I told my boss I'm applying for the following X number of work studies. Here are the dates. I had already checked them against big project dates or large things I can't move around otherwise. I told them it could be none of those dates, or if I get selected, it could be one. And, maybe if I really luck out and get picked for more than one, then we'll have to discuss the approvals.

    SANS doesn't normally tell you within a week, they do that if someone cancelled last minute and you are on the waitlist. In that case they're probably looking for someone who sort of fits what they want, but is actually able to get there in time, not their top choice criteria like you listed.
  • al88al88 GCIH, GCFA, GNFA, GCTI, GASF, GISP, Sec+ Dallas, TXPosts: 62Member ■■■□□□□□□□
    While i'm totally against one week notice.. it can be justified.

    SANS events and courses are popping up everywhere like rabbits.. (horrible business model but that's a discussion for another day), that means there are events that are happening for a first time somewhere, a lot of things can go wrong with first time or less popular events in general.

    From not enough students signing up for courses to venues and hotels not confirming full commitment and availability to host the number of people coming... Etc. Hence, they aren't committing a facilitator who will pay for ticket, course and hotel for not a guaranteed course or even event.

    That's why you won't see these short notice with big events like CDI or SANS Fire where positions get filled months ahead sometimes.

    So i guess the rule of thumb, accept the waiting-list of you really want that specific course/event .. a lot of random waiting-list isn't honestly worth it, live to facilitate another day.
  • iBrokeITiBrokeIT GXPN GPEN GWAPT GCFE GCIH GSEC eJPT Sec+ Posts: 1,209Member ■■■■■■■■□□
    johndoee wrote: »
    I am confused, disagree, and shocked at that reply.


    That'll happen when you look at the issue from only one side like you are doing here...

    What is SANS suppose to do if a previously committed facilitator has to cancel a week before the even due to a family emergency or a work incident? If you have a better solution than using a wait list, I'm sure they would be all ears.
    johndoee wrote: »
    We are supposed to tell our boss that?

    Yup, explain in exchange for being flexible with timing and putting in some work you will receive ~85% discount and save thousands of dollars.
  • TechGuru80TechGuru80 Posts: 1,539Member ■■■■■□□□□□
    johndoee wrote: »
    I am confused, disagree, and shocked at that reply.

    1. Some people on this board I assume have a (full time/salaried) job. People need more than a week or so to plan attending a SANS event.

    2. The WorkStudy qualifications for selection is not based solely on the number of GIAC certifications you hold and the number of WorkStudy events. Does it play a part yes, but not only based on those two qualifications. Here you go:

    3. An individual can only be so flexible especially with a demanding full time job and/or a family. One week is simply just not enough time, as we can read above. People aren't able to negotiate time off the week prior. People can't take leave from a job for a "discounted" SANS rate and come back and be unemployed.

    4. When you are accepted to facilitate an event they give you a date in which to accept, purchase the "discounted" training rate, and purchase the hotel under the "discounted rate", if the rate had not already expired. I personally think that they should notify people a few weeks in advance at least. That gives the other people on the wait list a few weeks to make arrangements to attend. If you tell me a month in advance and give me a week to accept or decline and make a payment, the other name on the list still has three weeks to do the same. That just makes sense.
    1. You would be surprised....SOME PEOPLE can actually get PTO or training attendance quite easily. Especially if somebody is local there is a much higher chance. My response was to somebody on the WAIT LIST and got notified 9 days before...not the first candidate. Every time I have been notified has been at least around a month...as the first candidate. Lots of times the first round of notifications is somewhere between 4-6 weeks, and I believe it was a week time frame you get to respond....but that doesn't mean people don't cancel because of whatever reason....then the next person on the list gets called.

    2. The fact that you listed the full requirements is comical. Anytime you do a work study, you get rated just like the instructors and if you do a good job they like to see returning facilitators. They try to get a good mixture of new and returning, but being a returner allows you to network and be in the good graces of SANS.

    3. Nobody ever said it isn't "unfortunate" (not unfair) that sometimes you don't find out until very shortly before...however, if you really want to go to a training, you shouldn't only apply to your local event and then complain because you don't get picked. When I go to apply, I apply to any location in the country....generally smaller events have a little bit better chance to get you an exact course but if you don't care about the course then just apply to everything.

    4. You keep going back to something that was never said. This is all about WAIT LIST and having a tight timeline, not being the first choice candidate. The first candidates are basically always notified 4-6 weeks out. I assume there is a reason they wait until that point but you really should be asking them to decide maybe 8 weeks or the first candidate.

    Disclosure: I have done 2 work study programs, been selected for two others (one first candidate, one wait list a few weeks before but was local). So I know a little bit about what I am saying.
  • sb97sb97 Posts: 109Member
    TechGuru80 wrote: »
    I don’t think it really makes sense to get mad at them. They pick people for the classes and give a time window of when each person has to accept or decline, and then the move down the list if needed. They can’t really anticipate somebody declining so they can’t start moving down the list ahead of time. The process definitely favors people who are flexible, which means if you really want it you should be willing to apply to several events that might require travel. Of course, the more GIAC certifications you get and the more you do work study events, the better your chances are at being the first choice for courses.
    When I applied, I was told to expect notification 4-6 weeks out. Obviously, I was not the first choice otherwise I would have been selected.

    They could have told me I was wait listed while waiting for that first person to respond. That is what a wait list is for. If they are just waiting until they hear a definite yes/no from someone that we are talking about a rejection letter rather than a wait list.

    I passed up a non SANS related opportunity while waiting on that response. It wasn't a huge miss but from a customer service perspective it is a terrible way to operate.

    Edit: I assume, and have asked, that they withheld notification for a significant amount of time because I was local to the event and they felt I might have been a good last minute substitute.
  • sb97sb97 Posts: 109Member
    al88 wrote: »
    While i'm totally against one week notice.. it can be justified.

    SANS events and courses are popping up everywhere like rabbits.. (horrible business model but that's a discussion for another day), that means there are events that are happening for a first time somewhere, a lot of things can go wrong with first time or less popular events in general.

    From not enough students signing up for courses to venues and hotels not confirming full commitment and availability to host the number of people coming... Etc. Hence, they aren't committing a facilitator who will pay for ticket, course and hotel for not a guaranteed course or even event.

    That's why you won't see these short notice with big events like CDI or SANS Fire where positions get filled months ahead sometimes.

    So i guess the rule of thumb, accept the waiting-list of you really want that specific course/event .. a lot of random waiting-list isn't honestly worth it, live to facilitate another day.
    I was told I was wait listed 9 days before the DFIR summit.
  • sb97sb97 Posts: 109Member
    TechGuru80 wrote: »
    1. You would be surprised....SOME PEOPLE can actually get PTO or training attendance quite easily. Especially if somebody is local there is a much higher chance. My response was to somebody on the WAIT LIST and got notified 9 days before...not the first candidate. Every time I have been notified has been at least around a month...as the first candidate. Lots of times the first round of notifications is somewhere between 4-6 weeks, and I believe it was a week time frame you get to respond....but that doesn't mean people don't cancel because of whatever reason....then the next person on the list gets called.
    Just so we are clear. I was told I was put on the wait list 9 days before the event. Not that I had been previously notified that I was on the waitlist and was being "activated". I heard nothing at all about my application until less than 2 weeks out. This is why I was upset. I was told in the intitial response that I would hear 4-6 week out. It was actually less than half of that.
  • sb97sb97 Posts: 109Member
    In the interest of fairness. I just went back and checked and my notification was 13 days prior to the event. Not 9.

    It seems my original post touched off a bit of a debate here. Yes, it pissed me off that SANS missed their notification date by a fairly wide margin. I still ended up taking a class at the event and using my training budget for it so obviously I wasn't too pissed off. Even so, I still feel that if SANS sets the expectation they will notify 4-6 weeks out. They should live up to that. They could have even just sent out an email at the 4 week mark to say they were still working things out. I do see some disagreement over what constitutes a wait list both here and in other venues.

    There are a significant number of people that believe that SANS should notify someone that they are being wait listed as soon as another candidate is chosen. Not when the other candidate agrees. By this method, there isn't really any reason that SANS should miss that 4-6 week deadline except if there is some doubt that the class may happen.

    The other side of the coin is that SANS doesn't need to notify until the other candidate accepts and sets up arrangements. That is the safer method for SANS as it is less likely that a wait list candidate will move on to other training opportunities. There are a significant number of people that think this way.

    Obviously, what SANS is doing is working for SANS as their programs have been growing and now other organizations are trying to take a piece of the pie. It probably is better for SANS to hold off on notifying when it is needed. The program favors those that can be flexible and I am OK with that. Still there are other ways this could have been handled. Even so, it wasn't THAT big of a deal.
  • cshkurucshkuru Posts: 231Member ■■■□□□□□□□
    I just did a workstudy in March (and had a pretty good time) but I didn't know we were supposed to get rated. Are they supposed to tell you how you did because I never heard a word, and to be honest I did have the feeling something was going wrong but when I asked they said no. It would be interesting to know if I am wasting my time applying for other opportunities.
  • TechGuru80TechGuru80 Posts: 1,539Member ■■■■■□□□□□
    cshkuru wrote: »
    I just did a workstudy in March (and had a pretty good time) but I didn't know we were supposed to get rated. Are they supposed to tell you how you did because I never heard a word, and to be honest I did have the feeling something was going wrong but when I asked they said no. It would be interesting to know if I am wasting my time applying for other opportunities.
    I believe it is more of a pass/fail thing, not a 1-5 kind of rating...based on the coordinators feedback, and your instructor's feedback. Basically if you do what you are supposed to do and don't cause issues then I wouldn't worry. I've never seen anybody do bad but it sounds like if you make their life difficult they are definitely going to tell you...thus no news is probably good news.
  • TechGromitTechGromit A+, N+, GSEC, GCIH, GREM, Ontario, NY Posts: 1,892Member ■■■■■■■■□□
    sb97 wrote: »
    I was put on a wait list. I was notified 9 days before the start of the event that I was being wait listed. Honestly, it kind of pissed me off that they waited so long to let me know.

    Just be happy you got that far, I got a firm rejection letter back, although I only applied once so far.
    Still searching for the corner in a round room.
  • TechGromitTechGromit A+, N+, GSEC, GCIH, GREM, Ontario, NY Posts: 1,892Member ■■■■■■■■□□
    johndoee wrote: »
    I am confused, disagree, and shocked at that reply.

    Some people on this board I assume have a (full time/salaried) job. People need more than a week or so to plan attending a SANS event. What if the individual is working on a big project. What if the individual has children, a single mother or father. Are we supposed to tell our boss we MIGHT need to take vacation?


    I suggest you only apply for events that you know there will be no work conflicts. Also you can pencil in a vacation, but if you don’t get a work study, you can tell your Boss, you had to cancel your vacation, I’m sure they would be fine with that. In short your saving yourself about $5,000, SANS can afford to be picky as it wants, like it or not.

    As for myself, I started a new job, I want to wait till have a good 6 months in before considering any future work studies. October’s out of the question as well, there the plant is refueling, it’s all hands-on deck that month.


    johndoee wrote: »
    Recommendation from SANS staff or instructor
    I didn’t see a place to add that information on my last application.

    I don’t think this is an issue with SANS, but with people canceling on SANS at the last minute and the SANS has to scramble to fill the opening. If this is the case, SANS should ask for half the fee up front, if you cancel on them you lose your fee. If you are out $850, if you canceled on SANS at the last minute, chances are less people would cancel last minute.
    Still searching for the corner in a round room.
  • sb97sb97 Posts: 109Member
    TechGromit wrote: »
    I didn’t see a place to add that information on my last application.
    I didn't either. I had a pair of people from GIAC/SANS telling me they were going to put in a recommendation for me but I was never able to determine if I had to follow up on that somehow.
  • TechGuru80TechGuru80 Posts: 1,539Member ■■■■■□□□□□
    TechGromit wrote: »
    1. I didn’t see a place to add that information on my last application.

    2. I don’t think this is an issue with SANS, but with people canceling on SANS at the last minute and the SANS has to scramble to fill the opening. If this is the case, SANS should ask for half the fee up front, if you cancel on them you lose your fee. If you are out $850, if you canceled on SANS at the last minute, chances are less people would cancel last minute.
    1. I am going to basically guarantee you will never see any such field on the application. There is no reason for them to let people list an instructor who supposedly recommended them for a course....not only would people take an instructor saying they should take another course as a good follow up as being recommended, but then SANS has to go and confirm with the instructor adding more work for them. If an instructor REALLY wants you to do a course, it probably would have to be a course they are teaching and they could just email the SANS coordinators.....and honestly most people do not know the instructors, let alone know them that well. Also, the instructors are independent contractors and the actual work study program is ran by people employed by SANS.

    2. You have to register for the course within two weeks of notice, and if you back out once you register they say they might charge 10% (U.S. cost now is $1,500 so $150). There is no way they are going to make the cancellation fee $850...life happens and that is a reality. If they really started to burden people because they couldn't go, it would hurt the program and overall experience. The charge is more than reasonable at 10% and they are in the business of making sure everybody has a good experience and gets the best training possible.......not to screw people over.


    Honestly, if you don't have a flexible situation to get PTO or attend training then you should ASSUME you aren't going if you get put on the wait list or don't hear back around a month before. It's not like SANS is forcing you to accept with 10 days notice, and you can apply to other events where you might be the first choice. I would also recommend putting 0's or leaving blanks for classes you definitely do not want to take as this will make it more likely you get classes you want to attend and not get shuffled into another spot.
  • TechGromitTechGromit A+, N+, GSEC, GCIH, GREM, Ontario, NY Posts: 1,892Member ■■■■■■■■□□
    TechGuru80 wrote: »
    2. You have to register for the course within two weeks of notice, and if you back out once you register they say they might charge 10% (U.S. cost now is $1,500 so $150).

    If it's true the cancelation fee is $150, obviously it's not high enough. There seems to be a lot of last minute cancellations based on the number of people who indicated they got in at the last minute.

    Thanks for the tip about the instructor recommendation, I didn't think about it, but it make a lot of sense. On the other hand, claiming you have an instructor recommendation when you actually don't is lying on the application. I think you would be banned from the program in that case.
    Still searching for the corner in a round room.
  • NetworkNewbNetworkNewb They are watching you Posts: 3,262Member ■■■■■■■■■□
    The only time I ever got chosen was when I got a recommendation from an instructor. A person at my work used to work with one of the instructors.

    Like most things in life... "Its not what you know. Its who you know"
    GCIH | CCNA:Sec | Net+/Sec+/A+ | CCSK
    Goals in progress: MSc in Computer Science (specializing in Cyber Ops) , CISSP
  • johndoeejohndoee Posts: 134Member ■■■□□□□□□□
    The only time I ever got chosen was when I got a recommendation from an instructor. A person at my work used to work with one of the instructors.

    Like most things in life... "Its not what you know. Its who you know"

    No No No NetworkNewb. You are not telling the truth. I don't believe you. TechGuruicon_lol.gif doesn't seem to think it happens. Techy does not know about the pull that is used to get courses. If HE is convinced it does not happen it does not happen!!! He said this:
    TechGuru80 wrote: »
    1. I am going to basically guarantee you will never see any such field on the application. There is no reason for them to let people list an instructor who supposedly recommended them for a course....not only would people take an instructor saying they should take another course as a good follow up as being recommended, but then SANS has to go and confirm with the instructor adding more work for them. If an instructor REALLY wants you to do a course, it probably would have to be a course they are teaching and they could just email the SANS coordinators.....and honestly most people do not know the instructors, let alone know them that well. Also, the instructors are independent contractors and the actual work study program is ran by people employed by SANS.

    .

    He is the almighty TechMaster, so ye must take a knee and admit what you said, that clearly coincides with what I said is total crap. A fiction of our imagination!

    Hear is a good video that describes the situation at hand-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C_oNMH0GTk
  • TechGuru80TechGuru80 Posts: 1,539Member ■■■■■□□□□□
    You should have highlighted “most people do not know the instructors” at least to the extent to put their name with a recommendation. It’s actually pretty funny you tried to ***** me and didn’t even read what I wrote...rookie.
  • TechGuru80TechGuru80 Posts: 1,539Member ■■■■■□□□□□
    I guess t r o l l is somehow a bad word.
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