Is school worth it?

Bl8ckr0uter

I have a quick question.

I was having a chat with my wife about my schooling future. I am enrolled in an A.A.S program in Network Engineering and I have been considering picking up the soft development track (which is about 4 extra classes) to make transfering to many local schools easier (alot require C++ and java). She asked me is a CS degree worth it and was school in general worth it. I paused for a moment and stated that I don't know. Let me tell you why.
I have gotten pretty far with just my HS Diploma, experience and a few certs. Along with the certs I have planned in the coming months, I have wondered about the worth of a degree. Many people I know with degrees say they wish the had saved there money. A person or two from here have even stated that I should forget about it for now (which is sounding pretty good). I know for management level jobs degrees are important. I also know that a lot of employers don't even list degrees as a requirement or allow for exp to be used in place of a degree. I also know that a degree can be used to weed out potential employees and in this economy it may be even tougher.
My question is for those who have degrees would you say that it helped you get into jobs you would not be able to get without it. For those without degrees would you say it has hurt you and how have you made up for your lack of degree. Also for those with AA, AS, or AAS degrees would you say that they have helped you any and will you go for higher degrees.

Just curious about what others think

Thanks,

EDIT: Just to let everyone know. I DO plan on finishing my degree(s). I do feel school has "worth" (whether or not that "worth" is mentally or financially is clearly up for debate). I am asking this out of interest in others opinions, however I have already made the big choice: I AM FINISHING SCHOOL (with honors If I may add ).

RobertKaucher

What the hell are you talking about!?!!? Get your damn degree!!! There are jobs I know for a fact I have not even been considered for due to a lack of a degree.

If you stop school now it will only be harder to complete in the future. I rarely offer dogmatic advice on this forum, but let me tell you right now: I have NEVER heard anyone who completed their degree in a promising field say "Damn, I really wish I hadn't gone to college." Stop even considering this right now!

Bl8ckr0uter

RobertKaucher wrote: »

What the hell are you talking about!?!!? Get your damn degree!!! There are jobs I know for a fact I have not even been considered for due to a lack of a degree.

If you stop school now it will only be harder to complete in the future. I rarely offer dogmatic advice on this forum, but let me tell you right now: I have NEVER heard anyone who completed their degree in a promising field say "Damn, I really wish I hadn't gone to college." Stop even considering this right now!

Dude chill .

I still want a degree. I will still finish my A.A.S. My BS will either be in IT or CS (more than likely IT; You are close to the DYT do you know about Sinclair/Franklins alliance? It is very nice). The A.A.S should be done next year, the BS is up in the air. I just don't know what the point is (besides you know, HR people and such). I mean I know I have one reason to get a degree (because my dad has his masters and me and him are in friendly combat ).

I was just curious man, chillax

eMeS

I might be wrong, but the way that your post reads it sounds like you've already made the decision and it looks like you're gathering evidence to support your decision.

The worth of degrees has been debated many times here and elsewhere. Statistically it has been shown that a higher level of education tends to positively correlate with higher lifetime earnings (there are studies showing this based on US census data). Playing from a long odds standpoint, either more education leads to higher earnings, or those with higher earnings tend to have more education. It's a correlation so causation cannot be determined.

I have a strong opinion that the worth of a degree is largely determined by the reputation of the school which granted it. In my view of things one associates, bachelors, or other degree is not equal to any other. Degrees from institutions with better reputations will always be more sought after than degrees conferred by institutions with less stellar reputations. In fact, given the prevalence of degrees these days, some would argue that this is really the only differentiating factor in degrees.

My personal thought is that you'll regret not completing your education as soon as possible. I could not do what I do today without holding degree(s), so I would say that it has benefited me. Greatly. However, I know people with much less education than I who have done very well for themselves. A degree, or lack one, is not a silver bullet.

Overall, I think a greater predictor of success is persistence vs. any other factor. One thing you can also find that people who succeed at something always have in common is persistence. It could be argued that abandoning your degree program shows a lack of persistence. However, it's important to note that education is only one factor to a successful career.

Regarding the AA, etc.. I don't know as I don't have any associates-level degrees. I can't imagine that other than outside of specific trades (in the US) that these provide much more value than getting you started on your bachelors requirements.

MS

eMeS

RobertKaucher wrote: »

"Damn, I really wish I hadn't gone to college."

I'd agree, I've never heard anyone say this.

However, I would make a point that there is a diminishing return to earning multiple bachelors degrees. I wish I hadn't done that, as that time would have been better spent jumping right into graduate school....

MS

GAngel

It depends on the country, the city and the region.

5-10 years ago it wasn't really very important now more employers are looking for something. If you have the opportunity to do it then i wouldn't pass on it. It's probably split 50/50 right now in most of the major markets.

IT managers just want the best candidate period. HR managers you have to get through first who want to see you stand out in some way.

dynamik

eMeS wrote: »

I could not do what I do today without holding degree(s), so I would say that it has benefited me. Greatly.

I think that's a particularly powerful statement considering that you're self-employed.

I regret not getting my degree sooner. Fortunately, I've kept chipping away at it, so I only have a few classes remaining at this point. I'd be in complete despair had I just abandoned it. I've found a masters program I'm very eager to get started on, so finishing my undergrad is taking priority over certs in 2010.

Bl8ckr0uter

MS:

Do you think that during the degree(s) helped you gain the skills you have today or do they help validate your skills that you have gained via other channels?

RobertKaucher

knwminus wrote: »

Dude chill .

Sorry... But I, like eMeS, thought your tone in the original post indicated you had already made up you mind.

I stand by what I said, though. You would be crazy to not get it.

I'm glad I misunderstood what you were getting at!

eMeS

knwminus wrote: »

MS:

Do you think that during the degree(s) helped you gain the skills you have today or do they help validate your skills that you have gained via other channels?

I don't think it's really either necessarily. To some extent a degree is an expectation that you must meet in order to open certain doors. In my world these things are a means to an end, and that ultimately guides my judgment, thoughts and opinions about degrees.

I would say that any undergraduate degree is basically a sheep dip. This is why I often say, outside of a few criteria that I think are important(e.g., I think a B.S. degree is more worthwhile than anything B.A. or B.B.A), the topic of undergraduate study is irrelevant. Too much of a big deal is made about undergraduate majors and minors. The point of an undergraduate education is to expose you to many topics and approaches to problem solving. For those who have completed an undergraduate education, it is validation that you can stick with something that takes several years to complete. IMO this is really what it does for you, and why such tends to open doors (walking through the door is another story altogether).

IMO, undergraduate degrees are an indication of ability to persist, and rarely a validation of specific skills. Graduate degrees are more likely to validate mastery of a specific body of knowledge.

MS

eMeS

dynamik wrote: »

I think that's a particularly powerful statement considering that you're self-employed.

Well thanks...degrees are enablers..that's really how I see it. They don't stamp degree on your forehead when you graduate. It's only the beginning...you have to make something of it, and largely the "it" is up to you.

A lot of why I'm self-employed is because the higher you climb the ladder in an organization, the less your job becomes about anything technology-related and the more it becomes about being a member of a professional debate team.

Anytime in my life I've done long-term engagements, or when I've been a direct employee, this has been my experience. There have been times when I attended meetings simply because that was the expectation...I think that's a waste of everyone's time and personally I'd rather be watching Elmo with my kid.

At least Elmo is honest that he perpetually has another man's hand up his ass. There are many people that work long-term in large organizations that do as well, they just can't admit it.

I really hate attending meetings all day and I hate arguing with people about things that they haven't read and/or don't understand. If you climb high enough, especially in large organizations, this is mostly what your job becomes.

MS

Bl8ckr0uter

eMeS wrote: »

I don't think it's really either necessarily. To some extent a degree is an expectation that you must meet in order to open certain doors. In my world these things are a means to an end, and that ultimately guides my judgment, thoughts and opinions about degrees.

I would say that any undergraduate degree is basically a sheep dip. This is why I often say, outside of a few criteria that I think are important(e.g., I think a B.S. degree is more worthwhile than anything B.A. or B.B.A), the topic of undergraduate study is irrelevant. Too much of a big deal is made about undergraduate majors and minors. The point of an undergraduate education is to expose you to many topics and approaches to problem solving. For those who have completed an undergraduate education, it is validation that you can stick with something that takes several years to complete. IMO this is really what it does for you, and why such tends to open doors (walking through the door is another story altogether).

IMO, undergraduate degrees are an indication of ability to persist, and rarely a validation of specific skills. Graduate degrees are more likely to validate mastery of a specific body of knowledge.

MS

That is really a interesting way to look at it. Although I will have to respectfully disagree that undergrad majors are irrelevant. I don't think the guy with a degree in music will have as good as a chance as a guy with a degree in CS for an IT job (all other things being equal).

But keeping you mindset maybe I am getting hung up on CS degrees in general because, to be honest, I would like to do a degree in Business or Finance rather than IT but I want my degree to be relevant to my job. There is a program at a local state school that is a BSCS w/ a concentration in Business which seems really really nice and the program is pretty respected. The cost is low and I would be able to get some scholarships but the thing is scheduling with my job but that is another story....

eMeS wrote: »

At least Elmo is honest that he perpetually has another man's hand up his ass. There are many people that work long-term in large organizations that do as well, they just can't admit it.
MS

This statement is full of awesome. I really wish I could give you rep for this but I must spread the love first.

eMeS

RobertKaucher wrote: »

Sorry... But I, like eMeS

This is the only part of your post I read.

Me too.

MS

eMeS

knwminus wrote: »

That is really a interesting way to look at it. Although I will have to respectfully disagree that undergrad majors are irrelevant. I don't think the guy with a degree in music will have as good as a chance as a guy with a degree in CS for an IT job (all other things being equal).

There are really only a few careers where your undergraduate major makes a real difference. The main ones are engineering, architecture, accounting and medicine (nursing, physical therapy, future md's, etc..). This is typically because you have to complete certain coursework to ultimately be licensed in those fields.

In IT over the last 20 years I can count on one hand the number of people I've worked for that had IT-related degrees. However, I have worked for people that have almost every other type of degree, including no degree, and have seen those people do very well. These aren't small shops either...where I did most of my direct work was with an organization that now has a 1-2 billion per year IT budget, and for many years (at least the last 10) was well over the $1 billion range. In fact, I really don't have any small shops on my resume at any point in my career.

I once had a manager that had a 2 year fashion merchandising degree from an unaccredited college in Arkansas. Her salary was around 300k+ per year at the time, and that was many years ago.

Another manager I once had had a degree in philosophy.

All of these people had worked their way up through the IT ranks.

I'm delivering an ITIL class this week at a large IT organization in Houston. All attendees are director level and above. I'll do an informal poll tomorrow and try to get an idea of everyone's level and type of education. Again, I know it's not scientific, but it will be interesting to see what turns up.

I know what I'm saying is not really provable nor scientific, and it's only based on my experience, however, I would say the fact of having a degree supersedes any detail about that degree, such as the field.

Best wishes,

MS

Riskbling

No school is not worth it


Whats wrong with being an ignorant member of society

Bl8ckr0uter

eMeS wrote: »

I'm delivering an ITIL class this week at a large IT organization in Houston. All attendees are director level and above. I'll do an informal poll tomorrow and try to get an idea of everyone's level and type of education. Again, I know it's not scientific, but it will be interesting to see what turns up.

I am very interested on how that turns out.

Like I said I would really like to do a degree in IT with a concentration Business of Political Science or something. But more than likely it will be a degree in IT.

tpatt100

When everyone was looking for jobs at my last job at the same time because we all got the same three month notice it was apparent who was having an easier time getting calls. Those of us with four year degrees were getting calls from places we did not even know about where as the ones without were not even getting the time of day.

Was it the degree? Yes, the reason? We were all looking for a job at the same time in the same city. So recruiters were combing through and seeing who had the most check boxes filled.

Now if you have a degree and are a moron then you will get more interviews but you will not get more offers. The degree opens the door it is up to you what happens when somebody lets you in the door.

Since I started in IT I have more than tripled my original salary of 29 thousand on the help desk. When I got my degree with Northrop they immediately gave me a 20 percent pay increase. I left there for another 20 percent. From that job I left doing Lan Admin and moved into Security I got almost 40K pay increase to now where I got 15 percent increase.

In 10 years I went from making 7 bucks an hour selling tools at a home improvement store to almost six figures doing IT.

Each and every time I had coworkers apply to the same jobs and nobody got a call back except me. It was not that I was better it was because I had more "check boxes" filled. It was the interview where I got the job.

I am not trying to be cocky or a show off but just being brutally honest. My current job? I did not even know this place existed, the job was not even advertised. One of their recruiters at corporate found me.

Samurai004

I still want a degree. I will still finish my A.A.S. My BS will either be in IT or CS (more than likely IT; You are close to the DYT do you know about Sinclair/Franklins alliance? It is very nice).

Well being from Dayton also, that was the exact same path I was planning on taking.

BUT...

Now after reading:

There are really only a few careers where your undergraduate major makes a real difference. The main ones are engineering, architecture, accounting and medicine (nursing, physical therapy, future md's, etc..). This is typically because you have to complete certain coursework to ultimately be licensed in those fields.

In IT over the last 20 years I can count on one hand the number of people I've worked for that had IT-related degrees. However, I have worked for people that have almost every other type of degree, including no degree, and have seen those people do very well. These aren't small shops either...where I did most of my direct work was with an organization that now has a 1-2 billion per year IT budget, and for many years (at least the last 10) was well over the $1 billion range. In fact, I really don't have any small shops on my resume at any point in my career.

I am not so sure. Since I already have my B.S. in Criminal Justice from Urbana University, I might just get my Associates in Network Engineering (only 8 classes needed) from Sinclair CC for two reasons.

1. To get some hopefully good experience with the four 7 credit hour courses in Cisco Routing required with a focus on CCNA prep.

2. And, to get an Advanced Network Engineering certificate with a focus in prepping for the CCNP.

I believe I will be ready to start out at an entry level position with the following resume stats:

B.S. Criminal Justice
A.A.S Network Eng.
Adv. Network Eng. certificate
CCNA
CCNP
A+
Net+
Sec+
Linux+
MCSA

plus 9 years full time police officer with experience as a crime scene technician, crisis intervention team and multiple commendations/awards.

Or do you guys/gals in the IT field think I should get another bachelor's degree...Like knwminus I am kinda confused on this one also????

eMeS

tpatt100 wrote: »

Each and every time I had coworkers apply to the same jobs and nobody got a call back except me. It was not that I was better it was because I had more "check boxes" filled. It was the interview where I got the job.

This...agree 1,000,000%

The more things that differentiate you from other candidates the better....

Sorry tpatt...it says I can't give you rep....It's the thought that counts!

MS

eMeS

Samurai004 wrote: »

Or do you guys/gals in the IT field think I should get another bachelor's degree...

I do not. Go get a masters degree that specializes in something.

You could think of post-high school education in the US like this:

1. Associates - Often trade oriented, sometimes very specialized.

2. Bachelors - You learn a little about a lot. The intent is to expose you to many topics and create general problem solving skills.

3. Masters - You learn a lot about a little. The intent is to specialize and begin the development of mastery in one field, and you might create original knowledge.

4. PhD - Piled higher and deeper. You learn more about 1 very specific area, and you will contribute original knowledge.

MS

tpatt100

Samurai004 wrote: »

Well being from Dayton also, that was the exact same path I was planning on taking.

BUT...

Now after reading:



I am not so sure. Since I already have my B.S. in Criminal Justice from Urbana University, I might just get my Associates in Network Engineering (only 8 classes needed) from Sinclair CC for two reasons.

1. To get some hopefully good experience with the four 7 credit hour courses in Cisco Routing required with a focus on CCNA prep.

2. And, to get an Advanced Network Engineering certificate with a focus in prepping for the CCNP.

I believe I will be ready to start out at an entry level position with the following resume stats:

B.S. Criminal Justice
A.A.S Network Eng.
Adv. Network Eng. certificate
CCNA
CCNP
A+
Net+
Sec+
Linux+
MCSA

plus 9 years full time police officer with experience as a crime scene technician, crisis intervention team and multiple commendations/awards.

Or do you guys/gals in the IT field think I should get another bachelor's degree...Like knwminus I am kinda confused on this one also????

With your Criminal Justice background it would probably be easier to stick with what you have and work your way up into security. You would be an asset bringing experience that allows you to think outside the box rather than a person with nothing but IT experience.

dynamik

tpatt100 wrote: »

With your Criminal Justice background it would probably be easier to stick with what you have and work your way up into security. You would be an asset bringing experience that allows you to think outside the box rather than a person with nothing but IT experience.

That's what I was thinking. That's an awesome background for trying to get into something like forensics.

elover_jm

Why do it if you think it's not worth it?????? (i wouldn't)

I know one thing for sure, if you approach a university education with that kind of thinking your chances of succeeding is very very low.


hey dynamik nice going on the 10,455 still want to know if thats the record on techexams

JoJoCal19

I can honestly say from personal experience that a degree does matter, especially a Bachelors or higher. I have had my A.S. in Information Technology since 2004 and it has served me well by getting my foot in the IT door and then using my experience and that degree to move up to where I am today but I can now say that only having that A.S has held me back. I have lost out on a job because I was told I was specifically missing the Bachelors degree. Also here in Florida ALOT of positions are listing Bachelors degree as a requirement and that is the one thing that I am missing. Needless to say I am finishing my AA up in the spring term 2010 so I can start my Bachelors at a high ranked school of business at UF (Go Gators!).

I agree with eMeS that unless youre going into a highly specialized job field that the area of your degree does not matter. Thats why Im getting a Bachelors in Business to go along with my IT degree so I can move up into management and also some higher end roles. I cant stop there though and plan on going straight through to get my MBA.

veritas_libertas

JoJoCal19 wrote: »

I can honestly say from personal experience that a degree does matter, especially a Bachelors or higher. I have had my A.S. in Information Technology since 2004 and it has served me well by getting my foot in the IT door and then using my experience and that degree to move up to where I am today but I can now say that only having that A.S has held me back. I have lost out on a job because I was told I was specifically missing the Bachelors degree.

I am finding this be very common in my area as well. A Bachelor degree seems to be coming quickly the standard for Network Admins, etc. I am taking next year off for financial, and family reasons but in 2011 I am going Gung ho for a Bachelor degree in IT. I don't plan to stop there either, but rather eventually get a Master degree as well.

dynamik

elover_jm wrote: »

hey dynamik nice going on the 10,455 still want to know if thats the record on techexams

It sure is, and this is the official honor that has been bestowed upon me:

veritas_libertas wrote: »

Either you don't have a life or you really enjoy technology

http://www.techexams.net/forums/off-topic/38835-10-000-page-challenge-4.html#post358500

veritas_libertas

Wait a second here! How did I end up getting cross-thread-quoted? Somehow this looks like a Javascript error

undomiel

I'm sure dynamik has been waiting for this post. I'll say that a degree is worth going for if you meet certain criteria. One, that you can get it without having to take out any loans for it. Debt isn't worth it. Two, that you've gotten a taste of some real world experience so that you know what you want to do. Wasting time switching majors is expensive due to the retarded requisites structure that schools have set. Third would be to make sure that you can actually learn something pertinent from the program. If you don't meet all of this criteria then you should seriously consider whether college learning is right for you. If you're just going for that piece of paper then all that time and money is being spent to lower a bar of entry that could be more efficiently lowered through self study and proper networking.

Not having a degree doesn't make you a second class citizen and don't let the elitists tell you otherwise. Not having a degree does not make you ignorant. It is possible to go most places in a career without a degree. Just because the job ad may state that a degree is required doesn't mean that it is. If you can do the work and get to show the manager that you can do the work, you'll have just as good a chance if not better than the ones standing in line with a degree. Some recommended reading I have for you is Ask The Headhunter® and a good oldie Amazon.com: What Color Is Your Parachute? 2009: A Practical Manual for Job-Hunters and Career-Changers (9781580089319): Richard N. Bolles: Books

I guess I'll say it. Damn, I really wish I hadn't gone to college.

It was wasted time and a whole lot of wasted money. We're still working on getting out from that mountain of debt. The benefit that I personally received out of it is learning how to draw and paint properly. Which was only a fraction of the classes that I paid for. Of which none of it I use in my current job and career. In my IT career the skills that I use have all been learned through self study.

RobertKaucher

undomiel wrote: »

I guess I'll say it. Damn, I really wish I hadn't gone to college.

What's your degree in? There was a reason I phrased that in my post the way I did. My wife has a Masters in mental health counseling and she makes less than I do with my HS education. She never labored under the mistaken idea that she would be earning 100K a year. But she has to have that degree to do what she does. The fact is you have to know the earning potential and cost of your degree.

If you have, for example, an Art history degree, well I might agree with you.

dynamik

RobertKaucher wrote: »

If you have, for example, an Art history degree, well I might agree with you.

You almost nailed the bulls-eye on that one

I agree with not spending tens of thousands of dollars for a degree that prepares you to work in a coffee shop

blargoe

I completely agree that it's not worth piling up a mountain of debt.

However, I don't think the majority of people will argue that having a degree can clear a few hurdles. You can get by without one and do fine; but you might get ruled out for a position early on if you don't have it, and you're going to have hard time moving into leadership without one.

Personally, I think everyone should always take the path of 2 year degree (which, often is the posted minimum requirement for a position), then transfer to a university and complete a bachelors if you want to have the 4 year degree. MUCH MUCH cheaper. I also don't get thinking paying top $$$$$ for the most elite universities just for the "prestige" is so worth it. Maybe if you are going to specialize later on, get a master's from there. Not for your entry into IT though.