Certification musings

TurgonTurgon Banned Posts: 6,308 ■■■■■■■■■□
Not particularly important but in discussion with our time served systems architect we briefly moved on to MS certification in general. Two points he raised. One - little incentive to keep up with all the tests and two..he's seen too many Microsoft qualified people who when asked to partition a disk and install windows needed quite a lot of help to do that.

Interesting. I suppose some things haven't changed since the NT days then. It seems there is still a hands on gap. I can only speak for MCSE NT 4.0. When I studied that back in the day, pre VMWare and accessible affordable home labs (i.e you had an NT domain at work you couldnt screw around with and you certainly didnt have access to NT at home to play with), you had to compensate by a lot of book reading and careful analysis of what was in production at work. In the books there was a lot of stuff about ARC paths and RAID and disks and what have you but the basics of getting the OS installed on a machine were poorly roadmapped in the books. Essentially it was you need this minimum spec for a machine to run NT, put CD in drive you will need minimum partition size x, make it PDC give it domain name..etc etc.

Many contract server engineers wiped out installations due to bad installation process and had to start all over again.

The hassles of setting up partitions and hardware RAID (Optional but often used with Compaqs) were avoided in the books as was proprietary smartstart CD use, as was SCSI driver options when installing NT. But it was alluded to if you studied the material hard. Many didnt.

I suppose its just testiment to people dumping the tests without having the hardcore server installation experience really. For those lucky enough to take the Compaq ASE tests back in the day in the late nineties at least the baremetal config of server hardware and OS installation and network drivers and RAID was covered. The ASE has since gone.

But not completely..HP have a variant here for Master ASE

http://h40060.www4.hp.com/procurve/training/certifications/technical/mase-campus-lan.php?cc=es&lc=es

Hardware is important. I recall taking instructions from Sun over the phone back in 2001 to get Veritas Volume Manager removed from some 4000 enterprise Sun boxes and spent a few hours doing it. No offshore flow chart support nonsense, that guy knew his stuff at the command line and only had me to give him feedback over the phone while I typed in his commands and told him what I could see on the box. I always remember 'sugar bin' i.e sbin.. No remote connection for the engineer. How times change.
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Comments

  • Hyper-MeHyper-Me Banned Posts: 2,059
    Did you post this just to insult those with MS certs?

    Cause its certainly no myth that people **** basically every cert out there, including Cisco stuff.

    Its obviously not easy (maybe not even possible) to **** the CCIE/MCM/MCA stuff, but every cert vendor is susceptible up to a certain point.
  • TurgonTurgon Banned Posts: 6,308 ■■■■■■■■■□
    Hyper-Me wrote: »
    Did you post this just to insult those with MS certs?

    Cause its certainly no myth that people **** basically every cert out there, including Cisco stuff.

    Its obviously not easy (maybe not even possible) to **** the CCIE/MCM/MCA stuff, but every cert vendor is susceptible up to a certain point.

    Not at all, in fact I didnt post it to insult anyone. Just an observation in the field thats all. It seems installation skills are as required as ever.
  • dynamikdynamik Banned Posts: 12,312 ■■■■■■■■■□
    Hyper-Me wrote: »
    Did you post this just to insult those with MS certs?

    Wow, you're a little defensive... icon_rolleyes.gif

    He was clearly speaking broadly and not simply targeting people with Microsoft certifications. Although, stuff like that does happen all the time, and I'm not sure your initial reaction wasn't to be concerned about that. When people who hold the same certifications as you are incompetent, that devalues those certifications for you and everyone else that has them.
  • Hyper-MeHyper-Me Banned Posts: 2,059
    dynamik wrote: »
    Wow, you're a little defensive... icon_rolleyes.gif

    .

    He makes a post about ****/cheating/and worthless cert holders and the only company he references in that regard is Microsoft. icon_rolleyes.gif
  • earweedearweed Member Posts: 5,192 ■■■■■■■■■□
    Hyper-Me wrote: »
    He makes a post about ****/cheating/and worthless cert holders and the only company he references in that regard is Microsoft. icon_rolleyes.gif

    MS certs are valuable. That's why so many braindumps and Bootcamps opened up. I even heard recently a bootcamp opening promising to get you an MCITP:EA in 4 weeks.
    The reason he picked on MS is because they were the most dumped certs (MCSE/MCSA)
    No longer work in IT. Play around with stuff sometimes still and fix stuff for friends and relatives.
  • eMeSeMeS Member Posts: 1,875
    Hyper-Me wrote: »
    Did you post this just to insult those with MS certs?

    Cause its certainly no myth that people **** basically every cert out there, including Cisco stuff.

    Its obviously not easy (maybe not even possible) to **** the CCIE/MCM/MCA stuff, but every cert vendor is susceptible up to a certain point.

    Turgon's presenting his observation. You might not agree with him nor like what he says, but it's clear his intent was not to insult anyone.

    I agree with him. I think a lot of the problem is the Microsoft/Prometric relationship. For whatever reason and despite numerous complaints, Microsoft has chosen to not fix that. Their own behavior and choice of partners is a large part of what devalues their certifications.

    What's more telling to me is that out of literally countless people on this site that hold some Microsoft cert or another (and 79 of them viewed this thread by the time I responded), you're the only one who says anything about being insulted by someone who is a long-term, highly respected member here.

    MS
  • cablegodcablegod Member Posts: 294
    eMeS wrote: »
    Turgon's presenting his observation. You might not agree with him nor like what he says, but it's clear his intent was not to insult anyone.

    I agree with him. I think a lot of the problem is the Microsoft/Prometric relationship. For whatever reason and despite numerous complaints, Microsoft has chosen to not fix that. Their own behavior and choice of partners is a large part of what devalues their certifications.

    What's more telling to me is that out of literally countless people on this site that hold some Microsoft cert or another (and 79 of them viewed this thread by the time I responded), you're the only one who says anything about being insulted by someone who is a long-term, highly respected member here.

    MS

    I read it a few seconds after Turgon posted it, and I knew he wasn't meaning to directly insult anyone, that's why I didn't respond. I did think someone would probably take it the wrong way though.
    “Government is a disease masquerading as its own cure.” -Robert LeFevre
  • HeroPsychoHeroPsycho Inactive Imported Users Posts: 1,940
    Hyper-Me wrote: »
    He makes a post about ****/cheating/and worthless cert holders and the only company he references in that regard is Microsoft. icon_rolleyes.gif

    Clearly, he posted this to single out us MS cert holders. He's trying to [email protected] our souls...
    Good luck to all!
  • dynamikdynamik Banned Posts: 12,312 ■■■■■■■■■□
    Microsoft certifications are also a lot more prevalent and easier to obtain, so such conversations will undoubtedly center around those more often than not. Cisco also has a few additional measures in place to ensure the integrity of their certification program. I've seen Turgon be nothing but fair and level-headed, and he was clearly just relating a single experience of his. I really don't think he needed to add a common-sense disclaimer explaining that.
  • earweedearweed Member Posts: 5,192 ■■■■■■■■■□
    HeroPsycho wrote: »
    Clearly, he posted this to single out us MS cert holders. He's trying to [email protected] our souls...
    You know the old saying:
    Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't someone trying to get you
    No longer work in IT. Play around with stuff sometimes still and fix stuff for friends and relatives.
  • Hyper-MeHyper-Me Banned Posts: 2,059
    eMeS wrote: »
    Turgon's presenting his observation. You might not agree with him nor like what he says, but it's clear his intent was not to insult anyone.

    I agree with him. I think a lot of the problem is the Microsoft/Prometric relationship. For whatever reason and despite numerous complaints, Microsoft has chosen to not fix that. Their own behavior and choice of partners is a large part of what devalues their certifications.

    What's more telling to me is that out of literally countless people on this site that hold some Microsoft cert or another (and 79 of them viewed this thread by the time I responded), you're the only one who says anything about being insulted by someone who is a long-term, highly respected member here.

    MS

    and exactly why is that "more telling" ?

    His observation is that a lot of people with MICROSOFT certs can't even install an operating system? The best part is that its not even his observation, its based on heresay from what some guy told him at work.

    I've worked with several people who have oversold their skillset (be it through cheating at certs or just flat out talking theirself up and not being able to do the job) Just as many of this people were in networking and DBA'ing as there were MS folks.

    Also, if i made a random post about how a lot of peopel with Cisco certs or ITIL [insult removed by Wm] were cheaters and fakes then you and I both know that the Cisco guys and YOU would have been in that thread chapping my rear end over it. Don't act like you wouldn't be.
  • eMeSeMeS Member Posts: 1,875
    Hyper-Me wrote: »
    and exactly why is that "more telling" ?

    That out of likely thousands on this site you're the only one offended.
    Hyper-Me wrote: »
    His observation is that a lot of people with MICROSOFT certs can't even install an operating system? The best part is that its not even his observation, its based on heresay from what some guy told him at work.

    That's pretty much what an observation is. It's not scientific, nor did he imply that it was.

    I've worked with several people who have oversold their skillset (be it through cheating at certs or just flat out talking theirself up and not being able to do the job) Just as many of this people were in networking and DBA'ing as there were MS folks.
    Hyper-Me wrote: »
    Also, if i made a random post about how a lot of peopel with Cisco certs or Six Sigma Mr. Miyagi/ITIL were cheaters and fakes then you and I both know that the Cisco guys and YOU would have been in that thread chapping my rear end over it. Don't act like you wouldn't be.

    Probably not. First, you know nothing about those things, so your opinion is irrelevant. Second, you'll find cheaters in all walks of life. For example, I know people who cheated on their securities licensing exams. You're certainly welcome to start a thread about that if you'd like. Ted Kennedy cheated on an exam at Harvard once. Feel free to start a thread about that as well. IMO, the jackasses that **** and cut corners (not just on cert exams) and can't actually deliver the work are quickly discovered. In other words, the solution that costs the least is not always the least expensive. Caveat emptor.

    Hyper-Me, I know full well it's not my place to say this, as I don't run this board. Did you ever notice how seemingly every thread you're involved in quickly diverges from the intended topic into pointless emotional off-topic discussion? I think it's time you took your personal brand of usefulness somewhere else.

    MS
  • Hyper-MeHyper-Me Banned Posts: 2,059
    eMeS wrote: »


    Probably not. First, you know nothing about those things, so your opinion is irrelevant.

    So someone repeating on here what some other guy told them (and not having any direct experience theirself, i.e. Turgon hasnt dealt with MS certs in about 10 years) is more valid than me saying it myself? Cool, I'll just post it and say "our senior project manager said..." or "our senior network admin said..." and immediately it will become valid! Amazing!
  • eMeSeMeS Member Posts: 1,875
    Hyper-Me wrote: »
    So someone repeating on here what some other guy told them (and not having any direct experience theirself, i.e. Turgon hasnt dealt with MS certs in about 10 years) is more valid than me saying it myself? Cool, I'll just post it and say "our senior project manager said..." or "our senior network admin said..." and immediately it will become valid! Amazing!

    Dude, it's an internet message board, not a referred scientific journal.

    None of us can validate 99.999% of what is said here.

    I don't agree with Turgon all the time, however, it is evident that Turgon has many years of experience in IT; so yeah, to me his opinions/comments are more valid than those of some junior-level jackass that regularly insults people and thinks he knows everything about everything.

    MS
  • HeroPsychoHeroPsycho Inactive Imported Users Posts: 1,940
    eMeS wrote: »
    Did you ever notice how seemingly every thread you're involved in quickly diverges from the intended topic into pointless emotional off-topic discussion?

    eMeS has a point, but surely Hyper-Me can calm down. Things seemed to be better for awhile until lately. What happened?
    Good luck to all!
  • Hyper-MeHyper-Me Banned Posts: 2,059
    eMeS wrote: »
    Dude, it's an internet message board, not a referred scientific journal.

    None of us can validate 99.999% of what is said here.

    I don't agree with Turgon all the time, however, it is evident that Turgon has many years of experience in IT; so yeah, to me his opinions/comments are more valid than those of some junior-level jackass that regularly insults people and thinks he knows everything about everything.

    MS


    And the opnions of people who care about and/or love the things they work on, and do so with passion, mean more to me than someone whos out looking for nothing other than the fastest way to make the next dollar.
  • Hyper-MeHyper-Me Banned Posts: 2,059
    HeroPsycho wrote: »
    eMeS has a point, but surely Hyper-Me can calm down. Things seemed to be better for awhile until lately. What happened?

    Nothing happened. eMeS got all upset because I told someone to just find a product that does what they need to inventory a few machines rather than go on the ITIL Journey of Life.
  • HeroPsychoHeroPsycho Inactive Imported Users Posts: 1,940
    Hyper-Me wrote: »
    And the opnions of people who care about and/or love the things they work on, and do so with passion, mean more to me than someone whos out looking for nothing other than the fastest way to make the next dollar.

    Those two groups aren't mutually exclusive. You can be passionate and love what you work on, not trying to make a quick buck, and not talk out of your butt, too.

    I sincerely hope you were not implying eMeS or Turgon are just money grabbers. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt there, even though I could misconstrue what you just typed. How about returning the favor to Turgon and calm down?
    Good luck to all!
  • phoeneousphoeneous Go ping yourself... Member Posts: 2,333 ■■■■■■■□□□
    I hate it when people **** in COD4:MW2. icon_sad.gif

    Back on topic, Im amazed at how many of my IT colleagues dont know what an ARC path is.

    And Turgon, thanks for the HP link, this is of great interest to me.
  • Hyper-MeHyper-Me Banned Posts: 2,059
    HeroPsycho wrote: »
    I sincerely hope you were not implying eMeS or Turgon are just money grabbers. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt there, even though I could misconstrue what you just typed. How about returning the favor to Turgon and calm down?


    There was no implication to be had. eMeS has stated very clearly before that he has little interest in exactly what he is working on and only works to make money.
  • eMeSeMeS Member Posts: 1,875
    Hyper-Me wrote: »
    Nothing happened. eMeS got all upset because I told someone to just find a product that does what they need to inventory a few machines rather than go on the ITIL Journey of Life.

    Not upset at all. Just pointed out that there is no ITIL journey. You take what you want from it and move on...

    MS
  • HeroPsychoHeroPsycho Inactive Imported Users Posts: 1,940
    Hyper-Me wrote: »
    There was no implication to be had. eMeS has stated very clearly before that he has little interest in exactly what he is working on and only works to make money.

    Please show where he's clearly said this.

    I give up. You clearly have no interest in hearing any criticism whatsoever, and you've made statements that are completely out of bounds such as the above, and no one will be able to convince you otherwise.
    Good luck to all!
  • eMeSeMeS Member Posts: 1,875
    Hyper-Me wrote: »
    There was no implication to be had. eMeS has stated very clearly before that he has little interest in exactly what he is working on and only works to make money.

    Absolutely, I've been very clear about my stance towards work. However, lack of interest does not equal lack of knowledge, nor does it imply anything less than 100% effort. I don't work because I want to work forever or because of some intrinsic motivation, I work because one day I want to not work.

    Everyone is motivated differently.

    MS
  • eMeSeMeS Member Posts: 1,875
    HeroPsycho wrote: »
    I sincerely hope you were not implying eMeS or Turgon are just money grabbers.

    I don't take what he said that way at all. In fact, the real money grabbers are the cheaters, which is what this thread was about....\

    I'm done...I've had disagreements with people here, we all have, but the one thing that I can say is that I've always had respect for every other person that I've disagreed with on this board. In light of the current situation Hyper-Me is now the only person on my ignore list.

    MS
  • TurgonTurgon Banned Posts: 6,308 ■■■■■■■■■□
    First of all Im not bashing the Microsoft people. This was my collegues observation about lots of qualified people he's come into contact with. He has a great deal of experience in AD and Exchange and some qualifications himself for that matter. We know we get out what we put into them, and they were certainly of great benefit to myself when I did them.

    It's sad he had this experience as people on TE invest a great of personal time and go to a lot of trouble to be better engineers. I guess there are just not enough to go around. Braindumping is one big problem, we know this but perhaps another sometimes is the content of material covered, or perhaps the lack of it in an operational context such as lighting and maintaining a server properly. This was one of the shortcomings in the NT track certainly. It's one of the reasons the hardware tracks are useful.

    All of these problems extend to other vendor certifications to be sure and they are not perfect. This is one of the reasons why hands on labs are so useful. The break fix environments many us at home have invested in, including yourself, really make all the difference. We have Cisco people who cant console devices on site properly. It happens.

    I was maintaining DHCP and DNS servers this week run on Windows which was a change from my usual duties.

    Now apparently my rep has been marked down for some reason. It was not my intention to hit a raw nerve. On that note I certainly hope someone else doesn't next week as I really need to see the dentist very soon..
  • dynamikdynamik Banned Posts: 12,312 ■■■■■■■■■□
    eMeS wrote: »
    In light of the current situation Hyper-Me is now the only person on my ignore list.

    Unfortunately, that only works for a brief period of time. Eventually your curiosity gets the best of you, and you want to see what everyone else in the thread is going on about...

    Regarding the original topic, nothing like that surprises me anymore. While someone having the same credentials as you despite lacking the corresponding skills and knowledge is far from ideal, it does serve as motivation to push yourself harder and further differentiate yourself from the masses.
  • eMeSeMeS Member Posts: 1,875
    dynamik wrote: »
    Unfortunately, that only works for a brief period of time. Eventually your curiosity gets the best of you, and you want to see what everyone else in the thread is going on about...

    And I'll still see the quotes, right?

    MS
  • Hyper-MeHyper-Me Banned Posts: 2,059
    HeroPsycho wrote: »
    Please show where he's clearly said this.

    I give up. You clearly have no interest in hearing any criticism whatsoever, and you've made statements that are completely out of bounds such as the above, and no one will be able to convince you otherwise.

    See his post below yours, he openly admits it, and I didn't say it to be insulting.

    Crticism is fine, in fact its good, but it gets tiresome stating my opinion and then having people tear into it because it didnt coincide with someone else opinion.
  • veritas_libertasveritas_libertas CISSP, GIAC x5, CompTIA x5 Greenville, SC USAMember Posts: 5,738 ■■■■■■■■■■
    Unfortunately, that only works for a brief period of time. Eventually your curiosity gets the best of you, and you want to see what everyone else in the thread is going on about...


    attachment.php?attachmentid=372&stc=1&d=1269808652
    Currently working on: Linux and Python
  • EzliteEzlite Member Posts: 27 ■□□□□□□□□□
    Errmmm .. back to the OPs tpoic

    All I can say is that for "IP-networking", 'Certs' are great and all that other stuff ... but ... I have had WAY too many experiences interviewing WAY too many people that have a CV/Resume that looks amazing and they simply do not hold up under even the slightest pressure.

    I am shocked over and over .. and over and over .. (you get the point).

    Yeah sure .. it’s like ... Oh yeah! we are going to hire a candidate without really asking much ... then have to deal with the fact that 2-3 months down the road we would realize that we just wasted a HUGE amount to time and resources. Add to that - the hiring team looks like idiots and will probably be tormented for years (yeah, I have seen it)

    Certs are important.. yes .. Especially if you are consulting and the client gets a warm and fuzzy from them, But there is nothing like consistent hands on year over year experience in my book.

    We have been looking for a person to fit into a position in LA for a while .. Client facing, Onsite report, SP environment, BGP, MPLS, MCast, Hardcore troubleshooting (RCA), etc ..

    I dread the next candidate I have to screen .. its soooo painful at times.

    Morale is .. GET Out there and get your CCIEs/JNCIEs .. PLZ .. it would make things so much simpler for me icon_wink.gif

    Lab based certs .. they should all be that way (never gonna happen)
    TB

    JNCIP-M: Late June 2010
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