Certification musings

Did you post this just to insult those with MS certs?

Cause its certainly no myth that people **** basically every cert out there, including Cisco stuff.

Its obviously not easy (maybe not even possible) to **** the CCIE/MCM/MCA stuff, but every cert vendor is susceptible up to a certain point.

Turgon

Hyper-Me wrote: »

Did you post this just to insult those with MS certs?

Cause its certainly no myth that people **** basically every cert out there, including Cisco stuff.

Its obviously not easy (maybe not even possible) to **** the CCIE/MCM/MCA stuff, but every cert vendor is susceptible up to a certain point.

Not at all, in fact I didnt post it to insult anyone. Just an observation in the field thats all. It seems installation skills are as required as ever.

dynamik

Hyper-Me wrote: »

Did you post this just to insult those with MS certs?

Wow, you're a little defensive...

He was clearly speaking broadly and not simply targeting people with Microsoft certifications. Although, stuff like that does happen all the time, and I'm not sure your initial reaction wasn't to be concerned about that. When people who hold the same certifications as you are incompetent, that devalues those certifications for you and everyone else that has them.

dynamik wrote: »

Wow, you're a little defensive...

.

He makes a post about ****/cheating/and worthless cert holders and the only company he references in that regard is Microsoft.

earweed

Hyper-Me wrote: »

He makes a post about ****/cheating/and worthless cert holders and the only company he references in that regard is Microsoft.

MS certs are valuable. That's why so many braindumps and Bootcamps opened up. I even heard recently a bootcamp opening promising to get you an MCITP:EA in 4 weeks.
The reason he picked on MS is because they were the most dumped certs (MCSE/MCSA)

Hyper-Me wrote: »

Did you post this just to insult those with MS certs?

Cause its certainly no myth that people **** basically every cert out there, including Cisco stuff.

Its obviously not easy (maybe not even possible) to **** the CCIE/MCM/MCA stuff, but every cert vendor is susceptible up to a certain point.

Turgon's presenting his observation. You might not agree with him nor like what he says, but it's clear his intent was not to insult anyone.

I agree with him. I think a lot of the problem is the Microsoft/Prometric relationship. For whatever reason and despite numerous complaints, Microsoft has chosen to not fix that. Their own behavior and choice of partners is a large part of what devalues their certifications.

What's more telling to me is that out of literally countless people on this site that hold some Microsoft cert or another (and 79 of them viewed this thread by the time I responded), you're the only one who says anything about being insulted by someone who is a long-term, highly respected member here.

MS

cablegod

eMeS wrote: »

Turgon's presenting his observation. You might not agree with him nor like what he says, but it's clear his intent was not to insult anyone.

I agree with him. I think a lot of the problem is the Microsoft/Prometric relationship. For whatever reason and despite numerous complaints, Microsoft has chosen to not fix that. Their own behavior and choice of partners is a large part of what devalues their certifications.

What's more telling to me is that out of literally countless people on this site that hold some Microsoft cert or another (and 79 of them viewed this thread by the time I responded), you're the only one who says anything about being insulted by someone who is a long-term, highly respected member here.

MS

I read it a few seconds after Turgon posted it, and I knew he wasn't meaning to directly insult anyone, that's why I didn't respond. I did think someone would probably take it the wrong way though.

Hyper-Me wrote: »

He makes a post about ****/cheating/and worthless cert holders and the only company he references in that regard is Microsoft.

Clearly, he posted this to single out us MS cert holders. He's trying to r@pe our souls...

dynamik

Microsoft certifications are also a lot more prevalent and easier to obtain, so such conversations will undoubtedly center around those more often than not. Cisco also has a few additional measures in place to ensure the integrity of their certification program. I've seen Turgon be nothing but fair and level-headed, and he was clearly just relating a single experience of his. I really don't think he needed to add a common-sense disclaimer explaining that.

earweed

HeroPsycho wrote: »

Clearly, he posted this to single out us MS cert holders. He's trying to r@pe our souls...

You know the old saying:
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't someone trying to get you

eMeS wrote: »

Turgon's presenting his observation. You might not agree with him nor like what he says, but it's clear his intent was not to insult anyone.

I agree with him. I think a lot of the problem is the Microsoft/Prometric relationship. For whatever reason and despite numerous complaints, Microsoft has chosen to not fix that. Their own behavior and choice of partners is a large part of what devalues their certifications.

What's more telling to me is that out of literally countless people on this site that hold some Microsoft cert or another (and 79 of them viewed this thread by the time I responded), you're the only one who says anything about being insulted by someone who is a long-term, highly respected member here.

MS

and exactly why is that "more telling" ?

His observation is that a lot of people with MICROSOFT certs can't even install an operating system? The best part is that its not even his observation, its based on heresay from what some guy told him at work.

I've worked with several people who have oversold their skillset (be it through cheating at certs or just flat out talking theirself up and not being able to do the job) Just as many of this people were in networking and DBA'ing as there were MS folks.

Also, if i made a random post about how a lot of peopel with Cisco certs or ITIL [insult removed by Wm] were cheaters and fakes then you and I both know that the Cisco guys and YOU would have been in that thread chapping my rear end over it. Don't act like you wouldn't be.

Hyper-Me wrote: »

and exactly why is that "more telling" ?

That out of likely thousands on this site you're the only one offended.

Hyper-Me wrote: »

His observation is that a lot of people with MICROSOFT certs can't even install an operating system? The best part is that its not even his observation, its based on heresay from what some guy told him at work.

That's pretty much what an observation is. It's not scientific, nor did he imply that it was.

I've worked with several people who have oversold their skillset (be it through cheating at certs or just flat out talking theirself up and not being able to do the job) Just as many of this people were in networking and DBA'ing as there were MS folks.

Hyper-Me wrote: »

Also, if i made a random post about how a lot of peopel with Cisco certs or Six Sigma Mr. Miyagi/ITIL were cheaters and fakes then you and I both know that the Cisco guys and YOU would have been in that thread chapping my rear end over it. Don't act like you wouldn't be.

Probably not. First, you know nothing about those things, so your opinion is irrelevant. Second, you'll find cheaters in all walks of life. For example, I know people who cheated on their securities licensing exams. You're certainly welcome to start a thread about that if you'd like. Ted Kennedy cheated on an exam at Harvard once. Feel free to start a thread about that as well. IMO, the jackasses that **** and cut corners (not just on cert exams) and can't actually deliver the work are quickly discovered. In other words, the solution that costs the least is not always the least expensive. Caveat emptor.

Hyper-Me, I know full well it's not my place to say this, as I don't run this board. Did you ever notice how seemingly every thread you're involved in quickly diverges from the intended topic into pointless emotional off-topic discussion? I think it's time you took your personal brand of usefulness somewhere else.

MS

eMeS wrote: »

Probably not. First, you know nothing about those things, so your opinion is irrelevant.

So someone repeating on here what some other guy told them (and not having any direct experience theirself, i.e. Turgon hasnt dealt with MS certs in about 10 years) is more valid than me saying it myself? Cool, I'll just post it and say "our senior project manager said..." or "our senior network admin said..." and immediately it will become valid! Amazing!

Hyper-Me wrote: »

So someone repeating on here what some other guy told them (and not having any direct experience theirself, i.e. Turgon hasnt dealt with MS certs in about 10 years) is more valid than me saying it myself? Cool, I'll just post it and say "our senior project manager said..." or "our senior network admin said..." and immediately it will become valid! Amazing!

Dude, it's an internet message board, not a referred scientific journal.

None of us can validate 99.999% of what is said here.

I don't agree with Turgon all the time, however, it is evident that Turgon has many years of experience in IT; so yeah, to me his opinions/comments are more valid than those of some junior-level jackass that regularly insults people and thinks he knows everything about everything.

MS

eMeS wrote: »

Did you ever notice how seemingly every thread you're involved in quickly diverges from the intended topic into pointless emotional off-topic discussion?

eMeS has a point, but surely Hyper-Me can calm down. Things seemed to be better for awhile until lately. What happened?

eMeS wrote: »

Dude, it's an internet message board, not a referred scientific journal.

None of us can validate 99.999% of what is said here.

I don't agree with Turgon all the time, however, it is evident that Turgon has many years of experience in IT; so yeah, to me his opinions/comments are more valid than those of some junior-level jackass that regularly insults people and thinks he knows everything about everything.

MS

And the opnions of people who care about and/or love the things they work on, and do so with passion, mean more to me than someone whos out looking for nothing other than the fastest way to make the next dollar.

HeroPsycho wrote: »

eMeS has a point, but surely Hyper-Me can calm down. Things seemed to be better for awhile until lately. What happened?

Nothing happened. eMeS got all upset because I told someone to just find a product that does what they need to inventory a few machines rather than go on the ITIL Journey of Life.

Hyper-Me wrote: »

And the opnions of people who care about and/or love the things they work on, and do so with passion, mean more to me than someone whos out looking for nothing other than the fastest way to make the next dollar.

Those two groups aren't mutually exclusive. You can be passionate and love what you work on, not trying to make a quick buck, and not talk out of your butt, too.

I sincerely hope you were not implying eMeS or Turgon are just money grabbers. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt there, even though I could misconstrue what you just typed. How about returning the favor to Turgon and calm down?

HeroPsycho wrote: »

I sincerely hope you were not implying eMeS or Turgon are just money grabbers. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt there, even though I could misconstrue what you just typed. How about returning the favor to Turgon and calm down?

There was no implication to be had. eMeS has stated very clearly before that he has little interest in exactly what he is working on and only works to make money.

Hyper-Me wrote: »

Nothing happened. eMeS got all upset because I told someone to just find a product that does what they need to inventory a few machines rather than go on the ITIL Journey of Life.

Not upset at all. Just pointed out that there is no ITIL journey. You take what you want from it and move on...

MS

Hyper-Me wrote: »

There was no implication to be had. eMeS has stated very clearly before that he has little interest in exactly what he is working on and only works to make money.

Please show where he's clearly said this.

I give up. You clearly have no interest in hearing any criticism whatsoever, and you've made statements that are completely out of bounds such as the above, and no one will be able to convince you otherwise.

Hyper-Me wrote: »

There was no implication to be had. eMeS has stated very clearly before that he has little interest in exactly what he is working on and only works to make money.

Absolutely, I've been very clear about my stance towards work. However, lack of interest does not equal lack of knowledge, nor does it imply anything less than 100% effort. I don't work because I want to work forever or because of some intrinsic motivation, I work because one day I want to not work.

Everyone is motivated differently.

MS

HeroPsycho wrote: »

I sincerely hope you were not implying eMeS or Turgon are just money grabbers.

I don't take what he said that way at all. In fact, the real money grabbers are the cheaters, which is what this thread was about....\

I'm done...I've had disagreements with people here, we all have, but the one thing that I can say is that I've always had respect for every other person that I've disagreed with on this board. In light of the current situation Hyper-Me is now the only person on my ignore list.

MS

Turgon

First of all Im not bashing the Microsoft people. This was my collegues observation about lots of qualified people he's come into contact with. He has a great deal of experience in AD and Exchange and some qualifications himself for that matter. We know we get out what we put into them, and they were certainly of great benefit to myself when I did them.

It's sad he had this experience as people on TE invest a great of personal time and go to a lot of trouble to be better engineers. I guess there are just not enough to go around. Braindumping is one big problem, we know this but perhaps another sometimes is the content of material covered, or perhaps the lack of it in an operational context such as lighting and maintaining a server properly. This was one of the shortcomings in the NT track certainly. It's one of the reasons the hardware tracks are useful.

All of these problems extend to other vendor certifications to be sure and they are not perfect. This is one of the reasons why hands on labs are so useful. The break fix environments many us at home have invested in, including yourself, really make all the difference. We have Cisco people who cant console devices on site properly. It happens.

I was maintaining DHCP and DNS servers this week run on Windows which was a change from my usual duties.

Now apparently my rep has been marked down for some reason. It was not my intention to hit a raw nerve. On that note I certainly hope someone else doesn't next week as I really need to see the dentist very soon..

dynamik

eMeS wrote: »

In light of the current situation Hyper-Me is now the only person on my ignore list.

Unfortunately, that only works for a brief period of time. Eventually your curiosity gets the best of you, and you want to see what everyone else in the thread is going on about...

Regarding the original topic, nothing like that surprises me anymore. While someone having the same credentials as you despite lacking the corresponding skills and knowledge is far from ideal, it does serve as motivation to push yourself harder and further differentiate yourself from the masses.

dynamik wrote: »

Unfortunately, that only works for a brief period of time. Eventually your curiosity gets the best of you, and you want to see what everyone else in the thread is going on about...

And I'll still see the quotes, right?

MS