Anyone have any experience with DSU's Cyber Operations program?

I've been looking at universities to go to, and Dakota State University's Cyber Operations BS seems to be one of the best ones for the InfoSec field, plus I qualify for it.

Program description:Cyber Operations (BS) | Dakota State University
Course catalog: http://dsu.edu/assets/uploads/resources/CyberOps-MAP.pdf

I'd like to note a few things:

The course curriculum looks very solid and seems to be 100% practical.
There's no calculus requirement -- just a math elective and discrete mathematics requirement.
The course catalog seems to prepare one for the following certifications: A+, Security+, Network+, CEH and some others.
The course catalog contains 2 web application programming courses and 1 specialized course for web-application security.
The ASM, Reverse Engineering, Malware Analysis courses prepare you for the GREM certification, supposedly.
The program has a job placement rate of 100%.

.
Would this be preferable over a Computer Science BS or any other online security-related programs? A Computer Science program would be much more theoretical and harder for me (I hate math). The only downside is that I probably won't qualify for DSU's scholarship since I'll be taking the program online. I've also been considering DSU'S Applied Computer Science master's degree since it can be finished in one year in a 4+1 combo and that way I can get the 'Computer Science' keyword on my resume.

Thank you.

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evarney

Bottom line up front; DSU is not a bad school.

Inditium wrote: »

I'm currently taking basic math and English courses at my local state college in order to catch up to college-level coursework. I've been looking at universities to go to, and Dakota State University's Cyber Operations BS seems to be one of the best ones for the InfoSec field, plus I qualify for it.

I am taking one class and have done two classes previously with DSU for the Master's in Information Assurance. I have a degree from the Texas A&M system in Information Technology and it has had nothing to do with my success. I wish I had a degree in Computer Science; math or something within the STEM sphere of studies.

This would be the first Master's program I have been in so I have only this to compare it to; but thus far it has provoked thought. I have worked in the IT field as network administrator for about 7 years now so nothing they teach me really blows my mind. Occasionally I learn something.

Would this be preferable over a Computer Science BS or any other online security-related programs? A Computer Science program would be much more theoretical and harder for me (I hate math).

I entourage you not to shy away from mathematics, programming or a CS degree for undergrad. It's going to be challenging, but I am going back to school to pick up a CS associates and some math courses because I want to stay marketable and an IT degree has a shelf life that is much shorter. Python and other languages will be important. Some places do actually want you to have done calculus. It isn't a deal breaker; but math can open doors for you.

A+, Security+, Network+, CEH are all great to get your foot in the door of a job, so my question to you is; why would you want an IT degree?

I honestly believe that degrees from places like DSU will be more marketable then WGU; granted it's only a matter of time before they start calling WGU a diploma mill like the University of Phoenix or Kaplan. WGU is the ITT tech of tomorrow.

In general; I highly recommend getting one good certification that gets you a job, and let the employer foot the bill for future training if you can. I started with only an associates degree and that degree probably is what got me in the door as a contractor and handwork got me promoted and then hired directly by the client.

Do not wait to pound the pavement. The first IT job I got; I walked in and asked for a job. I wouldn't be where I am now if I hadn't physically gone down there to get what I wanted. It was a small operation; but they hired me with an incomplete associates and I finished it while I was there; and another guy who worked there got hired somewhere and later he brought me on board where I made a decent living and had health benefits.

I think honestly my bachelors degree only detracted from my life; and the only reason I did it was because my new employer foot the bill. It took me like 7 years total to get a bachelors and I got it in IT because I was afraid to do things like Trigonometry, Calculus, Combinatorics, Discrete Mathematics, Differential Equations, and Probability and Statistics.

Essentially it's better than nothing; but a guy who can do differential equations can do cryptoanalysis. do the math...don't go to some crappy diploma mill. Do go to DSU; but at-least get your associates in CS so you have something that will age better than; a degree that says "my coursework is in a system no one even uses anymore".

Even traditional networking is changing, virtualization is taking over. You want to make sure you can't replaced by a python or pearl script in 10 years.

techexams-user-923

Thank you. Is the math more useful than courses like algorithms, forensics, scripting, optimization, OO programming, etc?

I was planning an associate in Network and Security administration from DSU because it's the closest program related to the Cyber Operations BS, and then I'd do the Cyber Operations BS. What if I did the MS in Applied Computer Science after doing 4 years of the Cyber Operations program? Would that make up for it or do you still recommend that I do Computer Science? I do get three open electives, and I could probably choose CS-related courses like algorithms, optimization, and object-oriented programming or math if it's that useful.

I'd just do a CS major with a Cyber Operations minor if it matters that much.

evarney

Inditium wrote: »

Thank you. Is the math more useful than courses like algorithms, forensics, scripting, optimization, OO programming, etc?

I was planning an associate in Network and Security administration from DSU because it's the closest program related to the Cyber Operations BS, and then I'd do the Cyber Operations BS. What if I did the MS in Applied Computer Science after doing 4 years of the Cyber Operations program? Would that make up for it or do you still recommend that I do Computer Science? I do get three open electives, and I could probably choose CS-related courses like algorithms, optimization, and object-oriented programming or math if it's that useful.

I'd just do a CS major with a Cyber Operations minor if it matters that much.

I am not saying it's more important in the short run, but you may regret not having it as I do.

Do what you want, but don't skip out on math. Go to a community college and take what you can, then transfer. This all depends on where you want to work. The help desk doesn't care if you can do calculus. But educational institutions, bank and trust companies, financial institutions, insurance companies, scientific institutions, and research agencies etc might.

techexams-user-923

evarney wrote: »

I am not saying it's more important in the short run, but you may regret not having it as I do.

Do what you want, but don't skip out on math. Go to a community college and take what you can, then transfer. This all depends on where you want to work. The help desk doesn't care if you can do calculus. But educational institutions, bank and trust companies, financial institutions, insurance companies, scientific institutions, and research agencies etc might.

Okay, thanks. I've been thinking more about it and it sort of makes sense now. If I do a networking/IT-type of degree, all the technology will be outdated in the future. I'll try to get through a CS major.

dmoore44

So, speaking as someone who didn't go through a CS program, but more of an applied technology program... What you're taught in an applied technology (networking/IT) is the theory of how the technology works, without really getting bogged down with the math that enables the tech. Each approach to teaching STEM is good and valid, but I think your choice should focus more on what you want to do in your career. If you want to develop the next generation of protocols, chips, and algorithms, then the CS track is definitely for you. If you want to pursue a net admin/sys admin role, then you could really go either way.

I certainly won't lie and say that the math is unimportant, or that it won't be useful to you in the future... If you ever want to further your education and pursue a graduate degree, then having a grasp of calc is more than helpful. If you're looking to move up in to senior management roles, then understanding calc, stats, and economics is important.

techexams-user-923

dmoore44 wrote: »

So, speaking as someone who didn't go through a CS program, but more of an applied technology program... What you're taught in an applied technology (networking/IT) is the theory of how the technology works, without really getting bogged down with the math that enables the tech. Each approach to teaching STEM is good and valid, but I think your choice should focus more on what you want to do in your career. If you want to develop the next generation of protocols, chips, and algorithms, then the CS track is definitely for you. If you want to pursue a net admin/sys admin role, then you could really go either way.

I certainly won't lie and say that the math is unimportant, or that it won't be useful to you in the future... If you ever want to further your education and pursue a graduate degree, then having a grasp of calc is more than helpful. If you're looking to move up in to senior management roles, then understanding calc, stats, and economics is important.

Isn't Cyber Operations a STEM major that's much more practical than Computer Science? And it's not like I'm NOT doing any math at all; I'll still have to take discrete mathematics and college algebra. I just can't see any situation where calculus would be more useful for information security than networking and programming courses, and I'm pretty sure that InfoSec companies would prefer Cyber Operations over Computer Science. I've compared it to other Cyber Security degrees, and it's not like that at all; instead of learning about IT and how to be managerial, in Cyber Operations you learn how to reverse engineer files, how to program and analyze/secure/exploit networks. It's much more technical, and I would hopefully like to work as some type of security researcher one day (I plan on DSU's master's in Applied Computer Science and their PhD in Cyber Security after I get some work experience if I do go this route).

So, it doesn't look like I'll have to learn calculus at all. I will, however, likely have to take courses such as Finite Mathematics, Statistics, Discrete Mathematics and College Algebra, which all could be useful for an information security career. You use discrete mathematics & statistics for cryptography, not calculus. I'll try to get an Internship as a Red Teamer/Penetration Tester and then work from there to get into a researcher role.

akatsuki91

I went there but transferred after a year since it was rough working full time and taking a full course load over 16 weeks. Very solid program but I majored in CS instead. The degrees have lots of overlap but CS has more math and programming. Both are still very hands on. To me its the best online program I have found minus the traditional semester lengths. If you want a more technical approach I would go for the Cyber Operations Program. I hate math and programming but majored in CS lol.

techexams-user-923

akatsuki91 wrote: »

I went there but transferred after a year since it was rough working full time and taking a full course load over 16 weeks. Very solid program but I majored in CS instead. The degrees have lots of overlap but CS has more math and programming. Both are still very hands on. To me its the best online program I have found minus the traditional semester lengths. If you want a more technical approach I would go for the Cyber Operations Program. I hate math and programming but majored in CS lol.

Would you say Cyber Operations is a better choice than Computer Science (on campus) for someone that wants to work in the InfoSec field?

NetworkNewb

Inditium wrote: »

Would you say Cyber Operations is a better choice than Computer Science (on campus) for someone that wants to work in the InfoSec field?

I think it definitely should as the knowledge you gain will be a lot more relevant to the positions you want to go into. But I still think the Comp Sci major will look better some companies just because its a well known Major.

techexams-user-923

NetworkNewb wrote: »

I think it definitely should as the knowledge you gain will be a lot more relevant to the positions you want to go into. But I still think the Comp Sci major will look better some companies just because its a well known Major.

Thanks, that's what I thought, and I do plan on doing their master's in Applied Computer Science since it can be finished in 1 year, so that should get me the CS keyword on my resume.

NetworkNewb

Inditium wrote: »

Thanks, that's what I thought, and I do plan on doing their master's in Applied Computer Science since it can be finished in 1 year, so that should get me the CS keyword on my resume.

I would check with them to make sure you can you go straight into their Applied Computer Science program from the Cyber Operations. I know they are pretty strict about having a Computer Science background before going into that major. You may have to take some extra courses if you do the Cyber Op major.

At least I know I would've, I have a BS in Computer Information Systems though. Talked with one of the professors there and think it was 4 courses I would have to take before I could start the Applied Computer Science program.

techexams-user-923

NetworkNewb wrote: »

I would check with them to make sure you can you go straight into their Applied Computer Science program from the Cyber Operations. I know they are pretty strict about having a Computer Science background before going into that major. You may have to take some extra courses if you do the Cyber Op major.

At least I know I would've, I have a BS in Computer Information Systems though. Talked with one of the professors there and think it was 4 courses I would have to take before I could start the Applied Computer Science program.

I've seen several students profiles where they completed Cyber Operations --> Applied Computer Science in 5 years time, and as listed on their website, "This degree is also part of our 4+1 Program which means you can complete your BS in Cyber Operations and your MS in Applied Computer Science in just five years." I'm more concerned about their Cyber Security PhD Computer Science requirement since I plan on doing that as well. They should accept the master's degree, hopefully.

NetworkNewb

Ahhh nice. Didn't see that part.

I'd have to assume the MS in ACS would count as the pre-req. Looking at the Phd program, all the MSACS courses are listed as part of the Phd program. That Phd does look interesting! Don't know if I'll ever get around to that one though.

akatsuki91

Would you say Cyber Operations is a better choice than Computer Science (on campus) for someone that wants to work in the InfoSec field?

I would say so since its more hands on with a lot of the courses. They give you a solid foundation so you know why you are doing something. If its still the same the first few courses you learn C, C++, and a little about Unix. Digital Forensics was pretty cool too. In CS we learned things from a big picture view so never got in depth like they Cyber Operations unless you minored in it.

the_Grinch

Figured I would chime in as I believe I can answer a bunch of questions.

1. The Cyber Operations course is basically an Applied Computer Science program. When you look at the program it tosses a lot of the "theory" course work associated with Computer Science and replace it with practical course work. Some schools have Applied Computer Science, it is rare though, and they will lighten the math requirements because it's practical in nature. I would only be leery because employers will see Cyber Operations and might pass on you. It happened a lot with my degree in that they saw security and felt I wouldn't be happy doing anything not security related. I was starting out and needed IT experience so I would have taken anything to start (and to pay my bills).

2. As noted, Cyber Operations can go right to the MS in Applied Computer Science (since you are getting the practical coding). If you were in a non-programming major there would be four undergraduate courses that would have to be completed.

3. For the DSc, if you come from a non-programming background, they will require that you complete the MS in Applied Computer Science (concentration in Cyber Operations) before beginning the Doctorate courses. It should be noted that you will not receive the MS in Applied Computer Science. I had asked and they said that if you wanted to the MSACS you would have to pursue it. A little backwards as many BS to PhD programs will award a Masters after two years, but they hold the cards.

DSU is a great school and is one of the few NSA designated schools for Cyber Operations. My boss is in the DSc and his classmates are from various three letter agencies so if nothing else you'll make some contacts if you network. Also the courses he has taken have been top notch and I kick myself a little bit for not pursuing the MSACS (I was accepted, but decide to go the legal route).

techexams-user-923

the_Grinch wrote: »

Figured I would chime in as I believe I can answer a bunch of questions.

1. The Cyber Operations course is basically an Applied Computer Science program. When you look at the program it tosses a lot of the "theory" course work associated with Computer Science and replace it with practical course work. Some schools have Applied Computer Science, it is rare though, and they will lighten the math requirements because it's practical in nature. I would only be leery because employers will see Cyber Operations and might pass on you. It happened a lot with my degree in that they saw security and felt I wouldn't be happy doing anything not security related. I was starting out and needed IT experience so I would have taken anything to start (and to pay my bills).

2. As noted, Cyber Operations can go right to the MS in Applied Computer Science (since you are getting the practical coding). If you were in a non-programming major there would be four undergraduate courses that would have to be completed.

3. For the DSc, if you come from a non-programming background, they will require that you complete the MS in Applied Computer Science (concentration in Cyber Operations) before beginning the Doctorate courses. It should be noted that you will not receive the MS in Applied Computer Science. I had asked and they said that if you wanted to the MSACS you would have to pursue it. A little backwards as many BS to PhD programs will award a Masters after two years, but they hold the cards.

DSU is a great school and is one of the few NSA designated schools for Cyber Operations. My boss is in the DSc and his classmates are from various three letter agencies so if nothing else you'll make some contacts if you network. Also the courses he has taken have been top notch and I kick myself a little bit for not pursuing the MSACS (I was accepted, but decide to go the legal route).

Thank you. So, it is possible to do the PhD program directly from the Cyber Operations BS? Would you recommend that or would you recommend that I do both, the MSACS and the PhD programs? If I do the MSACS program, should I not take the Cyber Operations specialization route if my bachelor's and PhD will be based on that?

akatsuki91

the_Grinch wrote: »

Figured I would chime in as I believe I can answer a bunch of questions.

1. The Cyber Operations course is basically an Applied Computer Science program. When you look at the program it tosses a lot of the "theory" course work associated with Computer Science and replace it with practical course work. Some schools have Applied Computer Science, it is rare though, and they will lighten the math requirements because it's practical in nature. I would only be leery because employers will see Cyber Operations and might pass on you. It happened a lot with my degree in that they saw security and felt I wouldn't be happy doing anything not security related. I was starting out and needed IT experience so I would have taken anything to start (and to pay my bills).

2. As noted, Cyber Operations can go right to the MS in Applied Computer Science (since you are getting the practical coding). If you were in a non-programming major there would be four undergraduate courses that would have to be completed.

3. For the DSc, if you come from a non-programming background, they will require that you complete the MS in Applied Computer Science (concentration in Cyber Operations) before beginning the Doctorate courses. It should be noted that you will not receive the MS in Applied Computer Science. I had asked and they said that if you wanted to the MSACS you would have to pursue it. A little backwards as many BS to PhD programs will award a Masters after two years, but they hold the cards.

DSU is a great school and is one of the few NSA designated schools for Cyber Operations. My boss is in the DSc and his classmates are from various three letter agencies so if nothing else you'll make some contacts if you network. Also the courses he has taken have been top notch and I kick myself a little bit for not pursuing the MSACS (I was accepted, but decide to go the legal route).

This! He said it best. Basically its what had pushed me towards computer science but if going for a Masters or PHD I don't think it would really matter. The requirements for my company just says STEM or Technical degree for most jobs. Also it does make for some nice connections although I didn't graduate from there.

evarney

Just get a million CompTIA and Cisco certifications....

and major in some grievance study like "Ethnic studies" or "gender studies"

this site's ppl crack me up sometimes...

the_Grinch

Inditium wrote: »

Thank you. So, it is possible to do the PhD program directly from the Cyber Operations BS? Would you recommend that or would you recommend that I do both, the MSACS and the PhD programs? If I do the MSACS program, should I not take the Cyber Operations specialization route if my bachelor's and PhD will be based on that?

Yup you can enter the DSc (it's not a PhD, but you will still be able to use Dr.) with just a bachelors degree. It may be tougher to enter as everyone I know in the program has a Masters, but there definitely nothing preventing you from trying (plus having been through Cyber Operations I suspect you would be accepted).

Personally, I would do the 4+1. In speaking with my boss the DSc is rigorous and that leads me to believe that having the Masters is the way to go. It appears to me that in the Masters you learn advanced techniques and in the DSc further advanced techniques. Some of the things he has told and showed me have blown my mind.

Honestly, with the MSACS the other specialization really isn't great and I suspect you can complete it in a year because you'll just be taking the advanced core classes so I wouldn't change my major.

techexams-user-923

Okay, thank you very much. What kind of job can I expect to get with just the bachelor's while I work toward the master's and DSc?