Building INE's topology

This might be better suited to one of the Cisco subforums.

And, using physical gear is old school. Use Dynamips.

Uhmmm yeah, I don't like using Dynamips or GNS3.

Anybody? Please help?

Uhmmm, why?

mikej412

CSCOnoob wrote: »

1 x 2511 - running on an old code and not maxed out. Do I really need to max it out and upgrade the IOS?

If you just plan to to use it as an access server -- and it's working fine right now -- then no. If you think you might also want to use it as one of the 3 INE R&S Workbook backbone routers, then yes.

CSCOnoob wrote: »

1 x 2514 - running on an old code 8D/4F. Is it true that I need 11.0 (11c) bootstrap to be able to recognize the 16D/16F?

No. The 5.x ROM will probably work. The 4.x ROM is the one that probably needs to be upgraded.

CSCOnoob wrote: »

2 x 2520 - running on an old code 8D/4F. Do you think I can get away with this for the FR switch part? Or should I just replace these and the 2514 with another router with 16D/16F? I think I've seen some 2500 routers in eBay that I can get for the same amount of buying three flash and RAM kit.

Same as for the 2511 -- if they are working as frame relay switches (or together as an 8 port frame relay cloud) then you're fine. If you think you want to try and use them as backbone routers too, then you'd need to upgrade.

CSCOnoob wrote: »

3 x 2620XM - if i remember correctly i have 128D/48F. That being said, I can use this for R1 and R2. However, R3 requires you to have two F/E ports, hence 2611XM. Is there any NM module that will work with 2600XM that is F/E? I saw some NM but it seems like the F/E module that I saw (forgot the model) will only work on 2691. Should I just get rid of this
2620XM and replace it with 2611XM? If NM-4A/S is cheaper than two WIC-2Ts, can I just buy 'em? I understand that they pretty much do the same thing? I have three WIC-2Ts right now.

The INE workbook topology has 6 routers, 3 backbone routers, 4 switches -- so you'd probably need to add some routers still. Don't forget to check all the 26x1XM models -- a lot of people overlook the 265xXM models and sometimes they sell CHEAP.

I got a couple of CHEAP 2651XM routers because they were cheaper than getting some NM-2FE2W modules for my 3640 routers.

Some have said they have NM-FE modules working in the 2600XM routers - but they aren't officially supported - so it's hard to figure out the NM/IOS combinations.

Check out some of the PDFs on the Cisco Partner Central Portable Product Sheet web page. The module cross reference & router memory PDFs are two of my favorites.

CSCOnoob wrote: »

1 x 2610 - i don't know the specs on this one just yet. i haven't had a chance to put this one up on my rack. will boot it up tonight to see what it has. i can use this as the FR with NM-8A/S with the right code right?

Yes. Or as a backbone router if you use the two 2520s as your frame relay cloud.

CSCOnoob wrote: »

2 x Catalyst 2950 - yea, it isn't even listed in the topology. Should I get rid of these?

Back when 3550s were expensive, some people would toss their 2950s into the topology and do router-on-a-stick to simulate the SVI interfaces and layer 3 routing. I've got my 2950s over with my "extra" routers for running "technology labs."

CSCOnoob wrote: »

2 x Catalyst 3550 - compliant

CSCOnoob wrote: »

Should I invest on 2 x 3560s?

Yes, or 3750 switches.

Check out this thread:
http://www.techexams.net/forums/ccnp/48922-ccnp-ie-home-lab.html

CSCOnoob wrote: »

1841s? A lot of people said I can get by with 3640s for the INE's workbooks, is that true?

Um..... probably. As long as you have a couple of routers (or Dynamips) running the newer 12.4T IOS and you use those to run through technology labs so that you're "up" on the latest stuff.

ColbyNA wrote: »

Uhmmm, why?

I'm the same way, I refuse to run Dynamips. I'm about to finally finish building out my CCIE lab of physical gear. Why? Because I want as close to real world simulation as possible. That means I want to deal with power and heat issues as well as cabling snafus, any pitfall I might encounter in the real world, I want to be able to encounter in the lab, and that's a little difficult to do with virtual hardware.

Thanks again mike! You've been very helpful.

Ordered some flash and memory already.

I checked the prices on 2651XMs and they were selling over $100. I'll shop around some more.

3560s are really expensive. I think I can borrow two from work but I don't know for how long. The manager said I can borrow if I can find some.

1841s are not bad but if I can get away with using 3640s then it'll be better.

Are you using INE's workbooks? I've been reading threads here for quite sometime now and saw that you're going to be taking the IE on January when the mobile lab crew visits Chicago. I wish you good luck! Any chance of being my mentor? I'm from the burbs as well.

@Forsaken

Thanks for explaining.

TheShadow

@Forsaken I have dynamips/gns3 loaded but I don't use it much since I have a pretty full rack. I will probably use it more if the juniper connect pans out. I had not given much thought to the GNS3 only people until I realized the extent that it isolates some.

The spouse invited one of her friends and husband over for thanksgiving. Talk got around to tech stuff and I find out that he is half way through CCNP. He finds out that I have a rack and asks to see it. We go into the spare bedroom which is my dungon. He looks around mini frig, small microwave "you spend much time in here?' me a little. He checks my 24 inch vertical monitor "whats that for" me pdf's.

Finally he looks over and asks is that a rack? Me thinking duh I answer yes. He responds I did not know the cables were so big and the routers were so small. Now I am thinking hmm and ask so you got your CCNA already? He replies yes used GNS3 for everything. Desktops were off so I pick up my netbook login to the power switch and start powering the rack up. When the 3550's powered on the guy jumped like a bee stung him. I just did not know how to take that all he could say was lots of lights.
I did not turn on the 3 rackable systems servers for fear of really giving the guy a heart attack. I cycled things down so that we could rejoin the others.

He asked one last question; how come the router with the multicables coming out of it has this long blue cable and the others have black cabes plugged into the same location. I explain that this router is a 2610 with async32a adapter used as a terminal server. The 'multicables' are called octopus cables 8 legs like the animal. The long powder blue cable is a console cable going to one of my desktops. He doesn't recognize it???

We returned to the others but he looked deep in thought the rest of the evening. I remained shocked and also in some thought the rest of the evening. I tried to keep my head from screeming dumper because that may not be true at all. It is something to think about though it appeared to be like using a simulator to learn to drive without ever seeing a automobile not even in the movies.

Yeah, alot of folks don't seem to realize that getting hands on with the hardware actually does count for something.

I go and visit my old college sometimes, I'm on good terms with the teacher who heads up the Cisco academy. And he occasionally asks me to talk to his students about some of the things I deal with on a real world basis.

I bring pictures of our network gear in the rack. When I show the pictures of the 6509's, it never fails - someone is always amazed and surprised. They think all Cisco gear is 1U fixed configurations, because 2600's and the like are what they practice on. The concept of a Supervisior Engine and a modular chassis that you can customize the ports with just blows their mind.

The funny thing is, I've harped on Cisco for doing the cheerleader routine for the Design track, but I think they should do at least *some* cheerleading about the different models of hardware and their variants in the certification course. When I worked for a hardware reseller, we got quite a few returns because the person ordered the wrong part, they didn't understand what it was that they needed, and just ordered a model number they saw on Cisco's website without doing any research as to whether or not it would fit their needs (eg, yes dumbass, you *WILL* need power bricks for all of your IP Phones if you don't order a switch with PoE capability!)

Now, I'm not knocking the folks who use Dynamips to learn. I understand all too well the expense that real equipment brings - I specifically budget each and every month a certain amount that goes into my Cisco Fund, and this fund pays for all of my books, my exam fees, and my equipment.... and it's a not insignificant amount of change. So yeah, I get it - this stuff is expensive. Using dynamips has it's advantages, namely in the cost department, but using the iron also has it's advantages.

Everyone should use what works for them, and respect that same choice from others.

@TheShadow
That's pretty weird. Lots of Cisco Press books have pictures of the routers and switches. You may be right with the ****.

Everyone studying for Cisco exams or has cert(s) should at least visit the products page!

@Forsaken
Hmmm, CNAP CCNA v3.1 had some pictures of 4500s and 6500s. Probably students weren't paying attention to them?

For us, we are not allowed to bring any kind of camera (even phones with camera) take pictures inside our data center.

Cisco funds? Nice! I should probably do that so my money won't just go to any other tech. *sighs* I am just addicted to tech.

Any plans on getting e-book reader, like Kindle? I kinda like the idea of Kindle. Less weight. Conceal what you're reading so colleagues won't ask you about it. Price just turns me off. I can pretty much get 2 x 1841s with that! Then again, I think it'll pay for itself in the long run.

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Now, I'm not knocking the folks who use Dynamips to learn. I understand all too well the expense that real equipment brings - I specifically budget each and every month a certain amount that goes into my Cisco Fund, and this fund pays for all of my books, my exam fees, and my equipment.... and it's a not insignificant amount of change. So yeah, I get it - this stuff is expensive. Using dynamips has it's advantages, namely in the cost department, but using the iron also has it's advantages.

Have you given Dynamips a real try? I used to prefer physical equipment too, that was until I actually sat down and gave Mips an honest try. After that it was an easy choice.

The cost is one factor, but more than that, it's the time involved. I can setup a huge lab in a couple minutes, something that would take me far longer on my physical gear (which I do still have).

I agree that people need exposure to real hardware. I think it's safe to say that you've had plenty of exposure to the real thing, I know I have. After one is comfortable with the physical stuff, I don't see an issue with a transition to Dynamips.

networker050184

ColbyNA wrote: »

Have you given Dynamips a real try? I used to prefer physical equipment too, that was until I actually sat down and gave Mips an honest try. After that it was an easy choice.

The cost is one factor, but more than that, it's the time involved. I can setup a huge lab in a couple minutes, something that would take me far longer on my physical gear (which I do still have).

I agree that people need exposure to real hardware. I think it's safe to say that you've had plenty of exposure to the real thing, I know I have. After one is comfortable with the physical stuff, I don't see an issue with a transition to Dynamips.

Yep they sound just like most before they give it a real shot.

I agree getting hands on the real stuff is very important, and I really don't suggest Dynamips for newbies for that reason. By the time you get to the level where you are going for the IE if you don't already have that hands on knowledge with the real thing you should probably reconsider anyway. Its not like you are going to be messing with any of that in the lab.

I did give Dynamips/Dynagen/GNS3 a try before. I actually tried GNS3 couple of weeks ago. But, it was crap. Someone say to use Dynagen again but two or three years ago, it gave me some problems as well. Here are some of the things that I've encountered, but not limited to this list:

Idle-pc. With older 2600 IOS, I can get a pretty decent idle-pc value right away. However, whenever I am using the 12.4 image I can spend more than 15 minutes trying to get a value for it. 15 minutes may not be a long time but that's 15 minutes wasted. Given you just need one idle-pc value for all routers that are the same, it is still 15 minutes wasted.

L2 issues. I've spend several minutes on an L2 issue that wasn't supposed to be an issue! All configs were correct but still showing up as up/down.

NET files. I gotta configure each and everyone of them if you create your own lab. While it is easy to configure, it is still time wasted.

Crash. Whenever I start 12 routers at the same time, the program just crashes. It'll give you an error message saying something like dynamips.exe crashed. Now, you gotta start all over again. I did try turning them on not at the same time but by the time I get to the 6th router, it'll give me the same error message.

I heard that you're also limited with the switch modules. You also use the old commands. That's not gonna help me in the lab exam, practicing old commands! Sure, you can buy L3 switches and connect to your computer with quad NICs. I don't know if I want to do that.

You can always reuse these equipments in studying some other certs after you're done with CCIE R&S. You can also have people rent it as well.

If I ever pass the CCDA exam next Saturday, I'll be stuck using Dynagen for my BSCI studies during my vacation in CA. If the above experience is different from what I've encountered before, then maybe I'll reconsider. But, you gotta admit that emulator is not the same as real equipment.

mikej412

networker050184 wrote: »

I agree getting hands on the real stuff is very important, and I really don't suggest Dynamips for newbies for that reason.

Ditto

Dynamips emulates the MIPS processor so that you can "run" real IOS images, but the "hardware" is still simulated. Plus there were some of the "programming guesses" made by Chris about how the real Cisco hardware used the electronic components and a couple of things may have been "hot-wired" in the code to always work.

Once you know what you're doing -- and have experience (and access) to real equipment -- it doesn't really matter too much what you use. In some cases, notepad works as well as any of the simulators, and even better since you don't have the expectation of getting a correct response when you hit return.

If you find something that doesn't work as expected in Dynamips, it's nice to be able to try it on some real hardware -- and then move on with your studies.

I'll use Dynamips mostly for routing technology labs & some of the IP services and security configurations. For serious study I'll fire up the hardware racks -- and Dynamips on the side for some individual task testing.

tiersten

I use dynamips for quick testing and once I've gotten the configuration sorted out, I usually try it on real hardware. Whenever I've had to do anything regarding QoS, I've always used real hardware.

CSCOnoob wrote: »

I did give Dynamips/Dynagen/GNS3 a try before. I actually tried GNS3 couple of weeks ago. But, it was crap. Someone say to use Dynagen again but two or three years ago, it gave me some problems as well. Here are some of the things that I've encountered, but not limited to this list:

Idle-pc. With older 2600 IOS, I can get a pretty decent idle-pc value right away. However, whenever I am using the 12.4 image I can spend more than 15 minutes trying to get a value for it. 15 minutes may not be a long time but that's 15 minutes wasted. Given you just need one idle-pc value for all routers that are the same, it is still 15 minutes wasted.

L2 issues. I've spend several minutes on an L2 issue that wasn't supposed to be an issue! All configs were correct but still showing up as up/down.

NET files. I gotta configure each and everyone of them if you create your own lab. While it is easy to configure, it is still time wasted.

Crash. Whenever I start 12 routers at the same time, the program just crashes. It'll give you an error message saying something like dynamips.exe crashed. Now, you gotta start all over again. I did try turning them on not at the same time but by the time I get to the 6th router, it'll give me the same error message.

I heard that you're also limited with the switch modules. You also use the old commands. That's not gonna help me in the lab exam, practicing old commands! Sure, you can buy L3 switches and connect to your computer with quad NICs. I don't know if I want to do that.

You can always reuse these equipments in studying some other certs after you're done with CCIE R&S. You can also have people rent it as well.

If I ever pass the CCDA exam next Saturday, I'll be stuck using Dynagen for my BSCI studies during my vacation in CA. If the above experience is different from what I've encountered before, then maybe I'll reconsider. But, you gotta admit that emulator is not the same as real equipment.

The IdlePC value shouldn't take 15 mins to do, but even so, you can copy it to your .net files forever (or until you change PCs). Let's compare that to upgrading the flash in a router you just bought. That can take far longer.

I haven't run into any L2 issues, so I can't speak to that.

You have issues with the short time it takes to make a .net file? Seriously? Let's compare that to recabling 10-20 devices. Taking 5 minutes to write a .net file is much more appealing to me than spending far more time recabling, moving modules, etc.

Dynamips crashing is an issue, but using a beefier computer works, you could also run multiple instances.

I do wish Mips could emulate switches, but I understand why it can't and I've come to accept it. I'd much rather spend the money I saved from not buying routers on switches and a beefy server though.

Also, GNS3 is nice for quick, simple labs, but it's a real PITA for large stuff. It's very buggy and crashes a lot. Using Dynagen on a Linux server is worlds better.

Those are your cons, now let's talk about the pros. The cost of a nice server is soooo much lower than building a lab with real routers, energy consumption is much less, noise is definitely less, setup time is way less, routers boot quicker with uncompressed images. Remote access, I can login to my Dynamips server from anywhere, build a .net file and have infinite possibilities for a routing lab, I couldn't do that with my physical gear unless it was already cabled properly, that's huge IMO.

Again, I was of the same mindset before I really dug into Dynamips, but now I love it and I would hate to have to start using real hardware again for studying. Real hardware is great, and I'm not saying Dynamips is the end all, be all for labs, but it can and should be used for a lot of studying and practicing.

While it isn't that hard to write the NET files, you have to admit that it takes a while to write it. If you're just starting out then you'll have to figure out how to write it. Since, I haven't used Dynagen for about 2 - 3 years now, I'll have to relearn it.

Recabling? AFAIK, INE's worklab don't need to be recabled. Then again, I am just guessing since I haven't seen one of their workbooks.

I have Q6600 with 3GB RAM PC so that shouldn't be a problem. I will be using Dynagen again on my MBP running Core 2 Duo 2.8GHz with 4GB RAM so it shouldn't be problem as well. We'll see how it goes.

Idle-pc. Yes, I've spent more than 5 minutes on trying to get idle-pc value because it wasn't giving me anything that has an asterisk. I am exaggerating on the 15 minutes thing. I didn't actually timed it but again it did give me a hard time getting an idle pc value with 12.4 image that I have on a 2600XM.

Again, we'll see how it goes. If it suits my needs then I'll reconsider it.

Heat, power consumption isn't an issue. Cost is not really a big issue. I have the money to buy the routers. I just want to save the money for something else. While Dynamips/Dynagen sever will do that, I still have to give it a try again before I'll stay away from it. But like I said, I still prefer real equipment.

BTW, please don't try to force people on what you believe in. Respect other people's decision. I believe Forsaken already said that and I concur.

You think I'm trying to force you to believe in something? Seriously? I'm trying to enlighten you. I'm trying to save you time, money, hassle, etc. My point isn't that everyone should use Dynamips because I do. My point is that you shouldn't count something out until you've actually given it a fair try.

And, I'm only attempting this because, AGAIN, I used to say the same things until I realized I didn't know WTF I was talking about.

Again, I have to reiterate that Emulator is not equal to real equipment.

Lost cause.

Okay. Let's say I've decided to go with your suggestion. What server are you going to suggest? External switches? For router model under Dynamips, which image are you going to suggest? For NICs, do I need to buy Sun quad NICs, as what I've seen from different forums before?

ColbyNA wrote: »

Have you given Dynamips a real try? I used to prefer physical equipment too, that was until I actually sat down and gave Mips an honest try. After that it was an easy choice.

Of course I have. Once I saw that INE had Dynamips configurations available for their rack layout, I pretty much had to sit down and give it a serious look to decide whether or not I was going to spend the cash for more physical equipment. I still found myself preferring the iron.

CSCOnoob wrote: »

@Forsaken
Hmmm, CNAP CCNA v3.1 had some pictures of 4500s and 6500s. Probably students weren't paying attention to them?

Probably. I haven't been through the academy in years, so I have no idea what the current curriculum looks like, I just know what the students are like

For us, we are not allowed to bring any kind of camera (even phones with camera) take pictures inside our data center.

Yeah, we have a policy of no equipment of no camera's in the building either. I got approval from my boss to do so once I explained what I wanted to take a few pictures for. As long as I didn't take a picture of anything that involved our security measures, and as long as the pictures were never posted anywhere (ie, they stayed on my laptop and that was it) he was ok with it for educational purposes.

Cisco funds? Nice! I should probably do that so my money won't just go to any other tech. *sighs* I am just addicted to tech.

Getting my finances in order was one of the harder things I learned to do. Used to be, I just paid my bills, saw what I had left over, and then bought what I could. Then I learned the power of actually budgeting.

Any plans on getting e-book reader, like Kindle? I kinda like the idea of Kindle. Less weight. Conceal what you're reading so colleagues won't ask you about it. Price just turns me off. I can pretty much get 2 x 1841s with that! Then again, I think it'll pay for itself in the long run.

I haven't decided yet. When it comes to this debate, I'm also decidedly 'old school'. I like real books. Reading large PDF's on a computer screen annoys me, I want paper in hand.

However, a few friends have Kindle's, and I can read on them alot easier than a computer screen. The idea of being able to carry virtually an entire reference library with me, especially on a job, is somewhat appealing to me, but if it's just something I need to look up quickly, pulling up the PDF from laptop would work just as well.

So I don't know. The Kindle's price is a bit of a turnoff. Once I free some money up, I'll probably go take a look at Sony's eInk reader and see whether or not I like that. I also plan to take a look at the Barnes and Noble Nook after the holiday craze is done, as it looks pretty badass, and for a decent price, but until I can actually hold one and play with one, I won't even think about committing cash.

I suspect that I'll end up doing both. I'll probably purchase hard copies of the books for serious studying sessions, and a digital reader with digital copies for reference and for those quick moments where I'm a captive audience (like on the toilet, out smoking, stuck in traffic, waiting on my food at a restaurant, etc)

TheShadow

ColbyNA wrote: »

Lost cause.

Why don't we chalk it up to a political or religious issue because your enlightment post sounded like doorbell ringing to me. I do not feel a need to enlighten people to use real hardware, I only state my preference.

I am happy that you found something that works for you. For me I still love the smell of flux capacitors but maybe I will return back to the future soon. You have experienced both methods but obviously my guest for the day had not. Apparently pictures in books did not do it for him.

I did not offer but I had the feeling that my guest was waiting for an invite to play with my rack. I am left wondering how many others are in the same position. I feel kind of guilty for not making an offer but dinner was on my mind and holiday conversation carried the day.

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Probably. I haven't been through the academy in years, so I have no idea what the current curriculum looks like, I just know what the students are like

If I remember correctly, the CCNA v3.1 (640-801) curriculum had pictures of Catalyst 4500 - 6500 seriers

Yeah, we have a policy of no equipment of no camera's in the building either. I got approval from my boss to do so once I explained what I wanted to take a few pictures for. As long as I didn't take a picture of anything that involved our security measures, and as long as the pictures were never posted anywhere (ie, they stayed on my laptop and that was it) he was ok with it for educational purposes.

That's cool. I don't have any purpose of taking pictures so I never bothered asking the right person if I can take some pictures.

Getting my finances in order was one of the harder things I learned to do. Used to be, I just paid my bills, saw what I had left over, and then bought what I could. Then I learned the power of actually budgeting.

Yea, it is all about learning how to budget your $$$.

I haven't decided yet. When it comes to this debate, I'm also decidedly 'old school'. I like real books. Reading large PDF's on a computer screen annoys me, I want paper in hand.

However, a few friends have Kindle's, and I can read on them alot easier than a computer screen. The idea of being able to carry virtually an entire reference library with me, especially on a job, is somewhat appealing to me, but if it's just something I need to look up quickly, pulling up the PDF from laptop would work just as well.

So I don't know. The Kindle's price is a bit of a turnoff. Once I free some money up, I'll probably go take a look at Sony's eInk reader and see whether or not I like that. I also plan to take a look at the Barnes and Noble Nook after the holiday craze is done, as it looks pretty badass, and for a decent price, but until I can actually hold one and play with one, I won't even think about committing cash.

I suspect that I'll end up doing both. I'll probably purchase hard copies of the books for serious studying sessions, and a digital reader with digital copies for reference and for those quick moments where I'm a captive audience (like on the toilet, out smoking, stuck in traffic, waiting on my food at a restaurant, etc)

Yea, I like to actually hold one and play with it. That's the reason why I don't want to buy it just yet. I've seen the Nook but one of the advantages of Kindle is the browser. Given, I won't need one since I have an iPhone. I gotta compare the Nook and Kindle to see which one I should really get.

TheShadow wrote: »

Why don't we chalk it up to a political or religious issue because your enlightment post sounded like doorbell ringing to me. I do not feel a need to enlighten people to use real hardware, I only state my preference.

I am happy that you found something that works for you. For me I still love the smell of flux capacitors but maybe I will return back to the future soon. You have experienced both methods but obviously my guest for the day had not. Apparently pictures in books did not do it for him.

I did not offer but I had the feeling that my guest was waiting for an invite to play with my rack. I am left wondering how many others are in the same position. I feel kind of guilty for not making an offer but dinner was on my mind and holiday conversation carried the day.

Yea, I think that your guest actually wanted you to invite him to play with the rack.

What do you guys think about this? I am considering buying this one but not sure if I should.

TheShadow wrote: »

Why don't we chalk it up to a political or religious issue because your enlightment post sounded like doorbell ringing to me. I do not feel a need to enlighten people to use real hardware, I only state my preference.

Yeah, this is what it comes down to in the end. I don't really feel a need to declare jihad on the proponents of learning through emulation, that's cool, that's their thing. I'll be in my office with my rack full of toys.

@Forsaken

Check out Que Reader. You may like that one.

I've seen what little information Plastic Logic has revealed about the Que, but they're apparently not going to actually unveil it untl CES next year, and then there'd be the delay of actually shipping it. Not sure I'd be willing to wait that long