Listing 'In Progress' Certs on Your Resume

[RANT]

I know I (and I hope we here on TE) take certifications more seriously than most, but this really bothered me.

Been interviewing candidates for a couple of positions and one of the candidates who made it through to me had some 'in progress' certifications listed on his resume. That really bothered me - you either have the certification or you don't. It just seemed like a ploy to get past the resume filters looking for keywords without any idea of context. I don't know how long you have been planning to earn the cert. Perhaps its only since you saw it as a requirement that you have been thinking about it, or maybe you have been studying for months and are afraid to take the exam. Either way you are of no use to me.

Unless you have passed the CCIE written and have the lab scheduled for next month, leave the 'in progress' crap off your resume!

[/RANT]

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mikej412

A resume should be an ACCURATE representation of your qualifications.

You can sell yourself and put your dreams and wishes on your cover letter.

When a resume gets pulled from the database and is found to have inaccurate information we mark it so it never gets pulled from the database again.

Otherwise everyone might as well be working on their PhD once they've completed 1 college class -- and list employment and experience they would like to have. Of course, the people who already do that are counting on their resume information not getting verified.

networker050184

Paul Boz wrote: »

I think its ridiculous to put "works in progress" on your resume. A resume should only list your qualifications for a job, not what you hope your qualifications will be. They should be "static" documents. By that, I mean "you should be able to do anything represented on your resume." If you have "currently pursuing x, y, and z" it does not mean you are currently proficient in any of that.

I have always been very negative about people putting incomplete certs, unearned certs, or otherwise false or miss-leading information on their resumes. I worked very hard to earn the certifications I have and its an affront to my work ethic and experience for someone to put "CCNP work in progress, passed 2/4 exams" on their resume when I have the CCNP and earned it by taking all of the exams. HR is going to flag their resume just like they're going to flag mine, and they're going to get an unfair shot at a job they otherwise shouldn't have.

If you want to put the cert on your resume just finish it. Use it as motivation to finish sooner if that helps you. Otherwise, keep it off your resume.

So, you take it as someone is going to unfairly get a job because they put that they were working towards a certification? Did those people not work hard to complete those 2 out of 4 exams? Not trying to be a jerk, but that is just ridiculous to me. Why shouldn't a resume show what you are working towards? Would you also suggest people with one credit hour remaining to not mention they are working towards a degree?

ColbyG

RouteThisWay wrote: »

In my opinion, a resume is a list of accomplishments or accolades you have done in your past to qualify you for a position.

Ok, so using this logic, wouldn't it be important that a candidate has passed one of the CCNP exams such as ROUTE or SWITCH? This signifies that the candidate could qualify for a position encompassing complex routing or switching tasks. If the candidate had only listed CCNA on his resume he may be passed up for a position which he was a good fit for.

Obviously experience is still king, so the candidate should have job history signifying that he is experienced with complex routing or switching issues, but I think the point still stands. Or, say I'm coming from a position which mostly consisted of high level switching duties, but I have recently passed the ROUTE exam. Shouldn't I get some credit for the ability to handle high level routing tasks as well?

I don't use cover letters, so I have nowhere to put this information other than the resume itself.

Hyper-Me

mikej412 wrote: »

A resume should be an ACCURATE representation of your qualifications.

You can sell yourself and put your dreams and wishes on your cover letter.

When a resume gets pulled from the database and is found to have inaccurate information we mark it so it never gets pulled from the database again.

Otherwise everyone might as well be working on their PhD

Correct me if im wrong, but arent you one of the folks here who has expressed disdain for pulling Resumes only to see "XYZ cert in progress" when trying to fill a job that requires a completed "XYZ cert" ??

I know there have been several threads, started by hiring personnel, expressing anger/frustration over this.

ColbyG

Paul Boz wrote: »

I have always been very negative about people putting incomplete certs, unearned certs, or otherwise false or miss-leading information on their resumes. I worked very hard to earn the certifications I have and its an affront to my work ethic and experience for someone to put "CCNP work in progress, passed 2/4 exams" on their resume when I have the CCNP and earned it by taking all of the exams. HR is going to flag their resume just like they're going to flag mine, and they're going to get an unfair shot at a job they otherwise shouldn't have.

So if this affects you, doesn't that further my point? If my resume is viewed by the same people yours is before I've completed a cert, that should be a good thing.

I assume the people who have incomplete certs will be weeded out if their experience doesn't match the position. So it really shouldn't affect or bother you in any way. If they DO happen to get an interview, then obviously they meet the requirements for the position.

Paul Boz

networker050184 wrote: »

So, you take it as someone is going to unfairly get a job because they put that they were working towards a certification? Did those people not work hard to complete those 2 out of 4 exams? Not trying to be a jerk, but that is just ridiculous to me. Why shouldn't a resume show what you are working towards? Would you also suggest people with one credit hour remaining to not mention they are working towards a degree?

Dude it's simple. You either have the cert or you don't. I don't care if you're working on it, period. You either have it, or you don't. Until you have it keep it off your resume. It is simple. Sure they're working hard for it, but the result of the hard work is the honor of putting the cert on their resume. I worked hard to be able to put "CCNP" on my resume. That person worked "half" as hard to put it on theirs. I'm working on three SANS certs right now and currently hold one. I can DRASTICALLY improve the content of my resume if I list 4 SANS certs (even if three of them are works in progress). WIPs should never get beyond the cover letter. You can tactfully let the hiring person know you're working on something without inflating your capabilities on your resume.

It's like boyscouts man. If you are working towards a merit badge great. You'll get your patch when you EARNED it. Until then, keep it off your uniform.

Hyper-Me wrote: »

Correct me if im wrong, but arent you one of the folks here who has expressed disdain for pulling Resumes only to see "XYZ cert in progress" when trying to fill a job that requires a completed "XYZ cert" ??

I know there have been several threads, started by hiring personnel, expressing anger/frustration over this.

I'm pretty sure that's the point he's arguing man...

pitviper

Why not? It shows that you’re ambitious. Within reason of course.

ColbyG

mikej412 wrote: »

Otherwise everyone might as well be working on their PhD once they've completed 1 college class -- and list employment and experience they would like to have. Of course, the people who already do that are counting on their resume information not getting verified.

This is the other side of the spectrum though, no?

I mean comparing one credit class, which is a minute percentage of an entire degree to completing 25-50% of a certification seems overboard. I feel that completing 1/4 or 1/2 of something is worth noting, especially seeing as it can signify a knowledge level that a potential employer may not see otherwise.

networker050184

Paul Boz wrote: »

Dude it's simple. You either have the cert or you don't. I don't care if you're working on it, period. You either have it, or you don't. Until you have it keep it off your resume. It is simple. Sure they're working hard for it, but the result of the hard work is the honor of putting the cert on their resume. I worked hard to be able to put "CCNP" on my resume. That person worked "half" as hard to put it on theirs.

No one is talking about saying they have a certification when they don't. I think you are misreading peoples comments. If you are saying that someone that puts that they are working towards a cert is misrepresenting themselves, then I don't know what to say to that.

Hyper-Me

Paul Boz wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that's the point he's arguing man...

I know thats his stance in this thread. I was just confirming that he was one of the ones that routinely speaks up about this (and has created a thread or so about it), since ColbyG wanted some proof.

Paul Boz

networker050184 wrote: »

No one is talking about saying they have a certification when they don't. I think you are misreading peoples comments. If you are saying that someone that puts that they are working towards a cert is misrepresenting themselves, then I don't know what to say to that.

Dude I understand fully what people are saying, I'm not stupid. What I'm telling you is that a resume should only indicate your capabilities, not what your ambitions are. I don't understand why people so grossly write off my recommendations and advice on these subjects. Every time I try to provide insight into how to build an effective resume people attack my stance. I am part of the hiring process where I work and I was also part of the hiring process at my last employer. My stance isn't speculative, I'm giving you honest advice on the real world as I see it from my hiring perspective and from how MANY of my peers see it. I see that its a pitfall for many people and want to help people avoid it. This isn't my personal opinion because I simply feel that way, it's based on the real world of getting jobs. It's that simple. I'm competent in what I do and don't open my mouth if my feedback isn't grounded in reality. Mike is one of the more esteemed posters here, and is someone I personally look up to. The fact that he feels the same way on this should say a lot.

networker050184

Paul Boz wrote: »

Dude I understand fully what people are saying, I'm not stupid. What I'm telling you is that a resume should only indicate your capabilities, not what your ambitions are.

I disagree. Why shouldn't a employer know what your ambitions are? I'll take an ambitious candidate over a non ambitious one any day of the week.

ColbyG

Paul Boz wrote: »

Dude I understand fully what people are saying, I'm not stupid. What I'm telling you is that a resume should only indicate your capabilities, not what your ambitions are.

So you've passed BSCI, BCMSN, ISCW and ONT, correct? Those are the capabilities indicated. So if I've done BSCI and BCMSN, which I list on my resume then how is that different? I'm only indicating what I've accomplished and as far as those technologies go (BSCI and BCMSN), from a certification knowledge standpoint, we're equals (on those two exams). No?

Edit: Wanted to add something to this. I think you're putting too much stock in title CCNP. What makes you a CCNP is completing each exam and (theoretically) understanding and becoming proficient in the technologies presented in each. If someone has completed a single CCNP exam, BSCI for instance, that should put their routing knowledge on par with yours (talking only based on the cert/exam, not experience) despite the fact that you have completed the other exams and (theoretically) have more knowledge on the technologies outside of BSCI.

Hyper-Me

networker050184 wrote: »

I disagree. Why shouldn't a employer know what your ambitions are? I'll take an ambitious candidate over a non ambitious one any day of the week.

Who would look more ambitious to you?

Candidate A
CCNA
CCNP

Candidate B
CCNA
(Working on CCNP)

Paul Boz

networker050184 wrote: »

I disagree. Why shouldn't a employer know what your ambitions are? I'll take an ambitious candidate over a non ambitious one any day of the week.

Because that is not the function of a resume, that is at best the function of a cover letter. You're trying to re-invent the purpose of a resume and it's wrong. your ambitions should come out in the cover letter and in the verbal interview process. It should not come out in your resume. Again, and this is not just my opinion but that if many of my hiring/firing peers - your resume should ONLY indicate your current proficiencies, not what you hope for.

I don't know what kind of jobs you're signing up for, but in my experience most higher level jobs don't provide lead-in time to get competent. If you're hired to do X, Y, and Z, you should be capable of doing those tasks within a day of starting your job. If you say on your resume that you're pursuing the CCNP and someone hires you based on a CCNP level of knowledge you're screwing your employer, you're screwing yourself, and you're screwing the honest candidates for the job that could have done it proficiently.

ColbyG wrote: »

So you've passed BSCI, BCMSN, ISCW and ONT, correct? Those are the capabilities indicated. So if I've done BSCI and BCMSN, which I list on my resume then how is that different? I'm only indicating what I've accomplished and as far as those technologies go (BSCI and BCMSN), from a certification knowledge standpoint, we're equals (on those two exams). No?

In that case, under "proficiencies" mention that you have a professional-level understanding of routing and switching concepts as confirmed by passing a portion of the CCNP required exams."

networker050184

Paul Boz wrote: »

Dude I understand fully what people are saying, I'm not stupid. What I'm telling you is that a resume should only indicate your capabilities, not what your ambitions are. I don't understand why people so grossly write off my recommendations and advice on these subjects. Every time I try to provide insight into how to build an effective resume people attack my stance. I am part of the hiring process where I work and I was also part of the hiring process at my last employer. My stance isn't speculative, I'm giving you honest advice on the real world as I see it from my hiring perspective and from how MANY of my peers see it. I see that its a pitfall for many people and want to help people avoid it. This isn't my personal opinion because I simply feel that way, it's based on the real world of getting jobs. It's that simple. I'm competent in what I do and don't open my mouth if my feedback isn't grounded in reality. Mike is one of the more esteemed posters here, and is someone I personally look up to. The fact that he feels the same way on this should say a lot.

Do you think I'm jsut making stuff up? I understand your opinion comes from what has worked for you, but that is the same way I formed my opinion. You are trying to act like your way is the only way. Obviously it's not if I have had no issue getting a job with certs in process on my resume.

pitviper

So just because someone dumped a cert to get the letters they should get called for an interview over me even though I could run circles around them in a technical discussion? I know plenty of people who hold driver’s licenses that shouldn’t be behind the wheel of a car!!

networker050184

Paul Boz wrote: »

Because that is not the function of a resume, that is at best the function of a cover letter. You're trying to re-invent the purpose of a resume and it's wrong. your ambitions should come out in the cover letter and in the verbal interview process. It should not come out in your resume. Again, and this is not just my opinion but that if many of my hiring/firing peers - your resume should ONLY indicate your current proficiencies, not what you hope for.

I don't know what kind of jobs you're signing up for, but in my experience most higher level jobs don't provide lead-in time to get competent. If you're hired to do X, Y, and Z, you should be capable of doing those tasks within a day of starting your job. If you say on your resume that you're pursuing the CCNP and someone hires you based on a CCNP level of knowledge you're screwing your employer, you're screwing yourself, and you're screwing the honest candidates for the job that could have done it proficiently.

In that case, under "proficiencies" mention that you have a professional-level understanding of routing and switching concepts as confirmed by passing a portion of the CCNP required exams."

Dude, your opinion isn't fact no matter how much you believe in it. You can't come on here and say anything on a resume is "wrong." I don't think there is a resume standard that must be followed. Its what ever works for you.

Hyper-Me

ColbyG

Paul Boz wrote: »

In that case, under "proficiencies" mention that you have a professional-level understanding of routing and switching concepts as confirmed by passing a portion of the CCNP required exams."

And this is somehow different from my current method? I will still hit keyword filters, which was your initial gripe, and I still have "CCNP" on my resume without actually being one. Seems the same to me, six in one, half dozen in the other, yadda yadda. But I have a feeling you will disagree, lol.

Paul Boz

networker050184 wrote: »

Do you think I'm jsut making stuff up? I understand your opinion comes from what has worked for you, but that is the same way I formed my opinion. You are trying to act like your way is the only way. Obviously it's not if I have had no issue getting a job with certs in process on my resume.

If it works for you that's fine, but I take issue when people provide bad advice to strangers on the internet. I feel you're providing bad advice so I'm countering that. It's ultimately up to the individual to make the choice themselves, but I would hope that with this being an "on the fence" subject, people would err on the side of caution and not do it. Sure it may help you to get a job but at the same time it can DEFINITELY hurt you. Why would you intentionally put yourself at a potential disadvantage for a minimal gain? To me, if something can hurt my chances of getting a job its just not worth it.

I'm not all butt hurt about this but I can tell some of you are getting your panties in a bunch...

ColbyG

Hyper-Me wrote: »

I love threads like this, they are great time killers and I typically come away from them feeling like I've been exposed to completely different ways of thinking.

networker050184

Hyper-Me wrote: »

Who would look more ambitious to you?

Candidate A
CCNA
CCNP

Candidate B
CCNA
(Working on CCNP)

The second of course, but which of these looks more ambitious?

Candidate A

CCNA

Candidate B

CCNA
working towards CCNP

I'd go with B personally.

Hyper-Me

networker050184 wrote: »

The second of course, but which of these looks more ambitious?

Candidate A

CCNA

Candidate B

CCNA
working towards CCNP

I'd go with B personally.

I agree there, but my point was that a truly ambitious person is likely going to be prepared long before the less or non ambitious person.

If i remember right, Paul Boz is only like 24-25, but look at his list of certs. Very impressive for someone at that age. That shows ambition.

Claymoore

I will give a complete opposite example where someone purposely didn't list something they did have. I was reviewing a candidate with a lot of experience and a very broad background who, strangely, listed no experience with Exchange. The position did not have Exchange as a requirement, but I brought up Exchange during the interview and mentioned I was surprised he had no experience with it. He actually did (and was able to discuss enough technical information around earlier versions to convince me) but he felt that since his experience was with older versions and nothing recent, that he would leave it off his resume as he didn't want to misrepresent himself as an Exchange admin. Guess who moved to the front of the line.

I prefer to discuss a candidate's WIP during the interview or read about it on the cover letter. Listing WIP with an ambiguous completion date looks - to me at least - like misrepresenting yourself to get past filters or reaching on a job you may be qualified for some day.

networker050184

Paul Boz wrote: »

I'm not all butt hurt about this but I can tell some of you are getting your panties in a bunch...

I'm not (if you are referring to me). Just a friendly disagreement. Thats what is wrong with these forums lately. No one can have a disagreement without someone thinking its personal. I could give a damn what anyone puts on their resume. Debating it is fine though and shouldn't be seen as a personal attack from either side. For example I hate baseball and will argue with anyone here that its the dumbest sport ever invented. Doesn't make it true or mean that I hate people that like baseball.

ColbyG

Hyper-Me wrote: »

I agree there, but my point was that a truly ambitious person is likely going to be prepared long before the less or non ambitious person.

If i remember right, Paul Boz is only like 24-25, but look at his list of certs. Very impressive for someone at that age. That shows ambition.

So the answer is just to already have the cert? That doesn't seem too feasible. And Paul does have an impressive list of certs, which proves that he is very ambitious. Should he not show that on his resume by listing exams he's completed for a cert he's working towards?

veritas_libertas

ColbyG wrote: »

I love threads like this, they are great time killers and I typically come away from them feeling like I've been exposed to completely different ways of thinking.

Agreed! I find that be exposed to all the different ways of thinking helps to protect me from being biased towards one way of thinking.

Paul Boz

Hyper-Me wrote: »

I agree there, but my point was that a truly ambitious person is likely going to be prepared long before the less or non ambitious person.

If i remember right, Paul Boz is only like 24-25, but look at his list of certs. Very impressive for someone at that age. That shows ambition.

25, but the hair line is deceptive.

ColbyG wrote: »

So the answer is just to already have the cert? That doesn't seem too feasible. And Paul does have an impressive list of certs, which proves that he is very ambitious. Should he not show that on his resume by listing exams he's completed for a cert he's working towards?

I feel that the answer is to just finish the cert and list it then.

Hyper-Me

ColbyG wrote: »

So the answer is just to already have the cert? That doesn't seem too feasible. And Paul does have an impressive list of certs, which proves that he is very ambitious. Should he not show that on his resume by listing exams he's completed for a cert he's working towards?

It's not always feasible.

I know that before I had my MCITP:EA, I was getting many fewer interviews and being taken less seriously during those interviews when I had to explain that I would have it done soon or that I was working on it. Even though my experience was the same, even though I was managing a 2008 domain that was tens of thousands of times larger than the ones at the jobs I was interviewing for, they just didnt seem to care until I hit that milestone.

In the end, you have to put on your resume what you think works best for you. You will come across people like Paul Boz, Mikej, and Claymoore who will see that and toss it, and you will no doubt come across others who like it. Its comes down to nothing more than a calculated risk, either way you go.