Certs chasing

With the possibility of getting neg'd I wanted to hear everyone's opinion on this.

I am 22 years old (turning 23 this year) and I have come to the conclusion that I do not plan to chase certs forever. I only want to earn a few, important, career impacting certs and maintain those rather than go after every single cert that comes out of the wood works. I think it is crazy. Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing against learning, I am just speaking about certifying. It is expensive and time consuming and unless I can get an employer to pay for them, it seems to be a very real expense. I know I don't have that many and I don't plan to stop with my current amount, I was just wondering if others have had this thought .

Edit: I am not trying to downplay the importance of certification in our careers or the value that some certs have or even the enjoyment some get out of the certification process.

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Comments

tpatt100

I used to cert chase when I had less experience. Now I will probably take only a couple of tests per year. Big reason for me is a lot of the stuff in cert tracks do not apply very well to my real world needs. Plus I am a use it or lose it type of guy and I would rather get certified in what I currently do

Turgon

chrisone wrote: »

I agree with you and many posters on this thread, regarding stopping the cert chasing at some point and just maintaining your skills. I myself always thought I would need to stop and just enjoy and benefit off my certs at some point in life. I am 29 and that point is coming soon. After working several years in the Networking field and 10+ years in the IT industry i realized in order for me to be in a safe zone of having a competitive set of network engineering skills a CCNP alone will not suffice. I have experience in ASA firewall building and maintaining / troubleshooting as well as wireless technology skills too, but it would be nice to have the certs to go along with those skills right? or am i wrong? hehehe

CCNP is a great certification and can open vast amount of doors for you, it is also a better career than many other hard labor or desk jobs out there. Plus you will probably get paid better than most people. However this wont last long, employers and enterprise networks need more than just routing and switching. This is the reason why I am pursuing my CCDA/CCDP this year and CCSP next year. I am also looking towards the end of this year 2010 at obtaining my CCNA security.

There is just no way of getting around being a network admin , network tech, or network engineer and not having to work with security. Point in case at a minimum for a solid network engineer you should have experience in routing/switching/security/design. All the other technologies such as wireless and VOIP are great and are an added bonus to ones skill set but in the end your wireless or VOIP systems wont even work on a network you cant even route properly let alone secure the darn thing.

To be honest as i am nearing the end of my CCDA cert guide it has ended with security and reading those security chapters has given me a new found interest in pursuing some security certs and since i am a cisco guy i will be doing the CCSP

Go for the certs of strategic value to you. The important thing though is to get roles and responsibilities in the field. Far too many people get design certs but dont do design work. The same can be said for CCSP's and security work. The certs give you background and awareness and that's good and they can open some doors but many people get into design or ASA work without that. Work as hard on clearing a path in the world of work towards your goal as you do on your certs and one thing or another should enable you to make some progress on what you want to do.

networker050184

I get certified in what I'm working with. If its just something I want to learn or need a brief overview of I don't bother getting certified on it. I see some people that want to go grab a certification for every technology that they heard passing in a conversation. I think that is one of the main reasons certifications are not valued as they once were. Rather than being a validation of skills already obtained through experience and study they are used to try and learn the skills with out any prior working knowledge. That kind of defeats the whole purpose of certification IMO.

Turgon

networker050184 wrote: »

I get certified in what I'm working with. If its just something I want to learn or need a brief overview of I don't bother getting certified on it. I see some people that want to go grab a certification for every technology that they heard passing in a conversation. I think that is one of the main reasons certifications are not valued as they once were. Rather than being a validation of skills already obtained through experience and study they are used to try and learn the skills with out any prior working knowledge. That kind of defeats the whole purpose of certification IMO.

People were going for the MSCE and CNE on that basis as far back as 1997. At the same time I can see situations where someone wants to train up in something new that isnt on offer at work and elects to study for a track. It provides a syllabus which is useful if it's a new thing. The important thing is not to try and pass yourself off as a timeserved expert in something if you more or less just qualified in it.

Turgon

eMeS wrote: »

Everyone should embrace whatever their motivations are. For me, pretty much every decision I make business-wise has to meet some level of potential ROI in terms of money or it doesn't interest me.

I don't work because of some intrinsic motivation, because it's fun, or because I think I'm saving the world. I strongly feel that that line is pure BS.
MS

I understand this as I like money too. At the same time I have to enjoy what I do to have the potential to profit at it or I would get bored. Pay me a 1000 dollars to shovel malt all day and I doubt I would last overlong even though the money is good. I think a lot of people are like that.

We should also be thankful people are less motivated by money and just want to do something of social consequence with their time. Without them, for example, there wouldn't be enough people helping our parents in care homes. And there are many other examples.

stuh84

Turgon wrote: »

I understand this as I like money too. At the same time I have to enjoy what I do to have the potential to profit at it or I would get bored. Pay me a 1000 dollars to shovel malt all day and I doubt I would last overlong even though the money is good. I think a lot of people are like that.

Yep gotta agree there, I'd be bored senseless in meetings all day even if I was earning double or triple what I am now.

Give me something to play with and get my hands dirty with, and I'm in my element.

End of the day, I'm going to die eventually and take nothing with me just like everyone else, so I choose being interested, happy and motivated over the bank balance any day.

eMeS

Turgon wrote: »

We should also be thankful people are less motivated by money and just want to do something of social consequence with their time. Without them, for example, there wouldn't be enough people helping our parents in care homes.

Don't know if you know this, but here in the US good elder care is not inexpensive and the people that do it are often well-compensated. I wouldn't characterize this in any way as a selfless humanitarian career choice.

MS

Paul Boz

I'm going to chase certs as long as they keep making me more money. As long as you make the maintenance as minimal as possible you're golden. For example, I have six cisco certifications. If I take and pass one professional-level exam it renews all of my Cisco certs. I'm trying to achieve the GIAC GSE not only for the status of the certification but because it allows you to renew all SANS certs with one written exam every several years. That would mean that every 3-4 years I could take a minimum of two exams to maintain all of my certs. As long as the certifications represent actual knowledge which you have and the maintenance isn't too ridiculous I don't see a problem with collecting them. I think they represent a certain amount of dedication and if you have a lot of them it generally means you spend a lot of time outside of work surrounding yourself with relevant knowledge.

chrisone

Paul Boz wrote: »

I'm going to chase certs as long as they keep making me more money. As long as you make the maintenance as minimal as possible you're golden. For example, I have six cisco certifications. If I take and pass one professional-level exam it renews all of my Cisco certs. I'm trying to achieve the GIAC GSE not only for the status of the certification but because it allows you to renew all SANS certs with one written exam every several years. That would mean that every 3-4 years I could take a minimum of two exams to maintain all of my certs. As long as the certifications represent actual knowledge which you have and the maintenance isn't too ridiculous I don't see a problem with collecting them. I think they represent a certain amount of dedication and if you have a lot of them it generally means you spend a lot of time outside of work surrounding yourself with relevant knowledge.

Good idea, however id rather stick to cisco and only take 1 cert every 3 years to renew everything

I just want to keep my CCNA, CCDA,NP,DP, and SP when i achieve them all. 1 every three years is justifiable after taking to many darn certifications, all the late nights and hair pulling study/lab sessions. I wish you the best in your cert chasing years

dynamik

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Turgon

eMeS wrote: »

Don't know if you know this, but here in the US good elder care is not inexpensive and the people that do it are often well-compensated. I wouldn't characterize this in any way as a selfless humanitarian career choice.

MS

I cant speak for the US, but thats not the case for a legion of people who provide care in our homes in the UK. While we all have to make a wage and depending on your circumstance that may be the best paying job on offer, lots of people involved on the frontline are not primarily in it for the money. The work is hard and it helps to be something you want to do. But I agree that ether way you decide what motivates you and go from there.

eMeS

Turgon wrote: »

I But I agree that ether way you decide what motivates you and go from there.

Exactly, and what I think knwminus is saying, and what I am definitely saying is that other people's choices are irrelevant. People being motivated by whatever it is that motivates them is their business, and there's no reason he should feel like a jerk because he's motivated by different things.

That said, I have much more of a problem with people who don't know what motivates them, vs. those who clearly know their driving forces, whatever they may be.

MS

Ashenwelt

Turgon wrote: »

Certs do not deliver careers. Careers have to be earned in the workplace. But certification surely has a role to play in that. The rat racing of certs isn't over but the benefits of doing it most certainly are. My take is that certification isn't of itself a great enabler, but the process you go through to obtain them may be. Many companies will gleefully hand off a project to someone who is certified these days, but heaven help them if they can't deliver!

Certs don't deliever careers... but they do deliver interviews. In the end though, getting certs in areas in which you don't get experience is going to hurt you in the long run.

In the end though, do not get all wrapped up in certs. They get you a little recongnition, and a chance to get an interview.

Ahriakin

Don't forget, they occasionally do also add some actually useful knowledge...;)

chrisone

Ahriakin wrote: »

Don't forget, they occasionally do also add some actually useful knowledge...;)

AMEN to that! people forget that when you read you can actually learn a thing or too. Its like reading a manual for a TV or DVR, your not going to study the damn manual but reading it you will learn a thing or two right? well in this case studying a certification is almost guaranteed to learn something.

L0gicB0mb508

After I get to a certain point I definitely won't be chasing any more certifications. I plan to certify in what I do, and that's about it. I plan to stick with what vendors I work with on a regular basis. I did choose to do the GCIA, just as a vendor neutral certification. I lost the drive to certify across the board a long time ago. I think it's fun to learn about different things, but I wont be throwing out the money to certify in everything I study.

There are tons and tons of certifications out there. A person could spend the rest of their career trying to stay up with every new product out there. Find your niche and stick with it.

Paul Boz

L0gicB0mb508 wrote: »

A person could spend the rest of their career trying to stay up with every new product out there.

For some, that's the "fun" of IT. The field is so large and dynamic that its impossible to do everything, but for the ambitious, this affords many opportunities to hoard knowledge. I don't do forensics as a regular function of my job but I think its fascinating so I study the subject and will get some certs in that direction sooner or later. I also don't do incident handling as a regular function of my job but recently completed the GCIH from SANS because I'd like to have that skill in my arsenal. I figure I can utilize forensics training in the incident handling process so why not get certs to back it up? I've always seen certs as a way of providing a metric for your level of competency in a subject. Sure there are people out there that don't have a clue with regards to the material which they're certified in but I wouldn't say that's the norm.

Constantly chasing certs is to me just further proof that I'll never be satisfied in what I do because I'm always trying to branch out my skillset in different directions.

L0gicB0mb508

Paul Boz wrote: »

For some, that's the "fun" of IT. The field is so large and dynamic that its impossible to do everything, but for the ambitious, this affords many opportunities to hoard knowledge. I don't do forensics as a regular function of my job but I think its fascinating so I study the subject and will get some certs in that direction sooner or later. I also don't do incident handling as a regular function of my job but recently completed the GCIH from SANS because I'd like to have that skill in my arsenal. I figure I can utilize forensics training in the incident handling process so why not get certs to back it up? I've always seen certs as a way of providing a metric for your level of competency in a subject. Sure there are people out there that don't have a clue with regards to the material which they're certified in but I wouldn't say that's the norm.

Constantly chasing certs is to me just further proof that I'll never be satisfied in what I do because I'm always trying to branch out my skillset in different directions.

I think I'll always study stuff, I'm just not sure if I'm going to certify in everything. I'm like you, I'll continuously read and study, but I doubt I'll get paper on it unless I absolutely need to.

Paul Boz

L0gicB0mb508 wrote: »

I think I'll always study stuff, I'm just not sure if I'm going to certify in everything. I'm like you, I'll continuously read and study, but I doubt I'll get paper on it unless I absolutely need to.

I literally equate certs to more money, so as long as certs are worth dollars to my bottom line I'm going to keep getting them

zerglings

I've talked to some people that have been longer in this field than me and said "get the certification that matters". Don't be one of those people that has to get all the certifications in the world.

Bl8ckr0uter

Paul Boz wrote: »

I literally equate certs to more money, so as long as certs are worth dollars to my bottom line I'm going to keep getting them

Truth^^^

If I didn't think that I could be getting more money for getting more certs I would have said no to them a long time ago. I just see how I have gotten farther in my career in a short time compared to some of my non certified co professionals. Even some of them with more college than me (and some with degrees). Granted I have about 3 years of entry level experience but even still I see certifications (and God) as playing a major role in my career development. I am about to step into a Network Security Admin role and if I can stick around for 2-3 years, earn a few more high level certs (CCNP/IP/SP, SSCP and some sans), I feel I can step out of here making 85k-90k in my next role. I will be about 26 years old.

chrisone

85k to 90k would be freaken nice!

I think a network engineer would have to know routing and switching, security, and design. I dont think you can get away without any of those being a network engineer. I never seen or heard of a job position where you just do design and no configuration, perhaps in a consulting firm, but not when your managing a network will you get away with just saying hey its should look like this and then go back to your desk lol

As for VOIP and WIFI , i think an enterprise should have dedicated people/departments for those technologies. Being a network engineer i got my hands tied up with R/S, security , and designing/deploying networks. I cannot be bothered with phone extensions and voip troubles, you couldnt pay me enough money to do all that. As for wireless, i could take on that responsibility as well along with my network engineering tasks but they would have to pay me an arm and a leg to do R/S, Security, Design, WIFI. I still believe you shoul dhave a dedicated person to handle the wifi too or hire more engineers that do r/s , security, design, wifi to spread out the work load.

I also know that in very high end enterprises security is a job role on its own and could have dedicated department just for that, i totally agree with that.

I wish i couldl earn 85/90 k lol ...id buy my lotus exige s 260 / Gray/Charcole/Gun Metal and my house in the same year lol

Bl8ckr0uter

chrisone wrote: »

85k to 90k would be freaken nice!

As for VOIP and WIFI , i think an enterprise should have dedicated people/departments for those technologies. Being a network engineer i got my hands tied up with R/S, security , and designing/deploying networks. I cannot be bothered with phone extensions and voip troubles, you couldnt pay me enough money to do all that. As for wireless, i could take on that responsibility as well along with my network engineering tasks but they would have to pay me an arm and a leg to do R/S, Security, Design, WIFI. I still believe you shoul dhave a dedicated person to handle the wifi too or hire more engineers that do r/s , security, design, wifi to spread out the work load.

I also know that in very high end enterprises security is a job role on its own and could have dedicated department just for that, i totally agree with that.

I wish i couldl earn 85/90 k lol ...id buy my lotus exige s 260 / Gray/Charcole/Gun Metal and my house in the same year lol

There are several large IT shops around here and for a good infosec job, 80-100k isn't that uncommon. I mean I don't think you should limit yourself and say you wish you could earn it. A CCIE should get about that much. I see CCIE jobs offering 80-120 all the time. I'm in the midwest so 80 here is probably 120 somewhere big like NYC or Cali.

It might take more than 2-3 years, maybe 4-5 but still...

YES on the Lotus. One of those bad boys passed me on the highway the other day. I almost crashed cause I was so focused on it.

Turgon

chrisone wrote: »

85k to 90k would be freaken nice!

I think a network engineer would have to know routing and switching, security, and design. I dont think you can get away without any of those being a network engineer. I never seen or heard of a job position where you just do design and no configuration, perhaps in a consulting firm, but not when your managing a network will you get away with just saying hey its should look like this and then go back to your desk lol

As for VOIP and WIFI , i think an enterprise should have dedicated people/departments for those technologies. Being a network engineer i got my hands tied up with R/S, security , and designing/deploying networks. I cannot be bothered with phone extensions and voip troubles, you couldnt pay me enough money to do all that. As for wireless, i could take on that responsibility as well along with my network engineering tasks but they would have to pay me an arm and a leg to do R/S, Security, Design, WIFI. I still believe you shoul dhave a dedicated person to handle the wifi too or hire more engineers that do r/s , security, design, wifi to spread out the work load.

I also know that in very high end enterprises security is a job role on its own and could have dedicated department just for that, i totally agree with that.

I wish i couldl earn 85/90 k lol ...id buy my lotus exige s 260 / Gray/Charcole/Gun Metal and my house in the same year lol

A good deal of the larger companies do design in much the way you describe with little or no access to live platform. Read only access, documentation sets and a line into support to have them send back config details or run commands is quite common. They produce network designs to deliver connectivity for customers on an infrastructure supported by other people. They may produce the config for implementation but the actual configuration is done by the build team or support professionals. This is particularly true in companies that have large design teams and architects delivering services to customers and new hosting environments. If the environments are shared and complex it makes sense to divide role up like this as design and support often have competing objectives anyway. Doing both would be a serious conflict of interests at times, and handling a design meeting while in the middle of an IOS upgrade or loadbalancer change wouldn't be cool

Essentially a designer takes a massive document from a developer and finds the software component flow chart. He then checks infrastructure to see where the devices are hosted. He assesses how many ways the traffic between sites are already routed (or not as the case may be), works out volumetrics, security requirements and confirms the latest strategic ways of doing things i.e to DC2 not DC1 as we are closing DC1 down.. and then defines the pathways. It's then a case of making sure all the devices inbetween play nicely. To accomplish this can involve raising changes with teams who handle different firewalls along the way, support people who take care of loadbalancers, provisioning rack space, ports and vlans, and working with the UNIX admins to make sure the routes are on the box. Then when it doesn't work you get everyone on a call and find out the UNIX support person can't run snoop

Oh yeah and you need to produce a design to standard that gets approved by people. This can take time.

chrisone

knwminus wrote: »

There are several large IT shops around here and for a good infosec job, 80-100k isn't that uncommon. I mean I don't think you should limit yourself and say you wish you could earn it. A CCIE should get about that much. I see CCIE jobs offering 80-120 all the time. I'm in the midwest so 80 here is probably 120 somewhere big like NYC or Cali.

It might take more than 2-3 years, maybe 4-5 but still...

YES on the Lotus. One of those bad boys passed me on the highway the other day. I almost crashed cause I was so focused on it.

Paul Boz

Or you can buy a bone stock 1000cc sport bike now and be faster

This is one of my favorite vids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9Lqc0HYyno

zerglings

In our company, we have a dedicated Security department. That said, we don't deal with a lot of security stuff. We only do routing and switching and part of design. Most design are being done by our Network Architects though.

chrisone

You must work for a large company.

zerglings

Yes sir.

tha_dub

My 2 cents

I've always found I studied for certs when my current job started to pose less challenge... In the same token when I've taken new positions I spend my spare time mastering the new skills I need for them. Case in point my last job running a call center (voice and data admin) My network/data end was good but I had little to no voice experience. Once I got good at the voice stuff for that job I started working on getting certs again and found a new job that payed almost double $$$.

I think for me it's a good system. Maybe not the most logical or goal oriented just my reality.