Schools and certs...

Man I have been chatty today. Btw this thread is not meant as a stab at anyone or any school.

With so many IT "schools" and IT colleges (I think you know the difference) based around certifications and certifying do you guys think that is cheapens certs overall? Do you think in 5 years, there certs you have will hold the same weight in the industry as they do today? I was just thinking about how many Netcads there are out there and how many CCNAs there are out there and I am looking for another way to stand out. I know there are the degrees and experience but I was just thinking about cert wise...

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phantasm

In all honesty I see certain certs losing value over time while other will retain their value. The whole IT college or IT school threads is almost as irritating to me as the whole "which cert makes the most money" threads. I really wish that people would sit back a little bit and think about IT as a career instead of a cash cow. In fact, it hasn't been a cash cow since the dotcom bubble burst back in 2000. But everyone gravitates to it. It's a shame really, I barely work with anyone who does this job because they enjoy it, they do it because they're convinced that once they get a high level cert they'll get rich and not have to do anything else.

It saddens and sickens me. But alas, I have digressed. Sorry.

Back on topic, certs like the Cisco and Juniper series I can see holding value. However I think they should be switched to a CCIE like format where you have both a written and sim/lab component. This would cut back on the brain dumpers who only memorized questions and answers. Certs like A+ and what not have their place and are fine, but with CompTIA ever growing their reach I see it becoming more of a common place cert than anything else. Of course the upper echelon of certs like CISSP, CCIE and CEH will retain value.

networker050184

As soon as a cert starts losing value the company will come out with the next best cert everyone will be going after. Its like a cycle. People are making big bucks off all of us going after these certifications.

Bl8ckr0uter

networker050184 wrote: »

As soon as a cert starts losing value the company will come out with the next best cert everyone will be going after. Its like a cycle. People are making big bucks off all of us going after these certifications.

How does that make you feel networker? Does it make you second guess doing them?

networker050184

knwminus wrote: »

How does that make you feel networker? Does it make you second guess doing them?

No not really. I get these things to help my career. As soon as they aren't helpful anymore I'll move onto what ever is. Certs, degrees or what ever else the big thing is at that time.

Just to add to that, I do enjoy learning the technology and working with it for a living. I wouldn't be paying to get certified if it wasn't helping me though.

exampasser

I myself would have more certs but since the two testing places that were local closed several years back (both were at community colleges) the closest testing place is a 3 1/2 hour round trip. To make matters worse, I don't have any any regular means of transportation.

I even had to turn down a free shot for a RHCT (offered to the top 30 students of the linux class at my college) because I had no way of getting there.

Bl8ckr0uter

exampasser wrote: »

I even had to turn down a free shot for a RHCT (offered to the top 30 students of the linux class at my college) because I had no way of getting there.

and you didn't sell it because.....

exampasser

knwminus wrote: »

and you didn't sell it because.....

The exam could only be taken at my school so no vouchers were issued. I suppose that they just keep a list.

Bl8ckr0uter

exampasser wrote: »

The exam could only be taken at my school so no vouchers were issued. I suppose that they just keep a list.

MAN that sucks

But you didn't answer the original question

exampasser

knwminus wrote: »

MAN that sucks

But you didn't answer the original question

Sorry about not answering your question in your OP. I personally don't think that that IT schools/colleges that are focused on certs cheapens them overall. I think it depends on the cert itself. I do feel though that some IT schools/colleges try to push certs as a "must have." For my security class coming up they are using a Security + guide.

BTW, how's the linux + studying going? It's been awhile since I've checked your post. If you need any linux related information such as setting up RAID, ACL's and anything else, I have 2 RHEL coursebooks at my disposal.

Bl8ckr0uter

exampasser wrote: »

BTW, how's the linux + studying going? It's been awhile since I've checked your post. If you need any linux related information such as setting up RAID, ACL's and anything else, I have 2 RHEL coursebooks at my disposal.

PM SENT

It's taken a back seat although since I am reading the Network Security Bible, I am a chapter away from the UNIX Security portion. I am looking forward to it.

Honestly its hard. At my current job we use hardly any nix at all and that's the way the other admin likes it. I was brought on to try to leverage Open Source or alternative software (Nagios vs Perspective, Alien Vault vs Mcafee, Android vs Iphone and Blackberry etc) but I am having little traction. I know for where I want to go, a firm and deep understanding of *Nix if going to be gold but for right now, honestly I feel like I should have done an MCSA/E at some point. Sigh its hard to live with duplicity lol.

ipconfig.all

People should study/train and get qualifications if they have a passion and an interest for it not because they were recommended to or not because an employer wants to or for the money. The value of certifications has gone down and it goes down every year because there are so many people with certifications who doesn't know how to back up their certification with the skills/knowledge. It wasn't long ago back in the late 90's to earl 2000's if you have a MCSE you could get a really good job without any work experience, that is not the case now certifications are common they are everywhere same as degrees the only thing that can't be replaced is experience because when you experience something it never goes away

QHalo

It's a combination of both really and I don't feel that either one trumps or makes the other less important. If you want to stand out in your field you need both in my opinion.

I managed to talk my boss into the full security INE package, not the on-site bootcamp though but all the self-paced stuff, for CCIE security v3. It was relatively cheap and I have CCNA sec, CCSP, and all of the V3 CCIE products at my disposal (I take CCNA Sec tomorrow so wish me luck!). I also want to go back and get my Master's degree, but I want to go to an amazing school and something that will challenge me to think differently. I'm looking at Carnegie Mellon University because they have a distance track in MSIT with a concentration on ISA. The requirements are amazingly high, but I want a challenge in my life and if I'm going to spend that kind of jack on a higher education, it's going to a school that will challenge me to become a better worker and leader in my career.

Not that I wouldn't get supreme technical knowledge from the CCIE pursuit but being in IT you have to be a forward thinker. What works out for you in the short term may not work out for you in the long term and you also have to remember that most of those certifications require re-certification. So make smart decisions about what certifications you get because you don't want to be a slave to re-certifying all the time. Find your niche and excel at it. Do whatever you can to make yourself as good as you can at your profession and love it and you will find that wanting to stand out was easy because hard work and dedication is what makes you stand out on it's own without even having to try and do it. Education from a good school coupled with relevant certifications from your field will always be good choices no matter what. You have to start somewhere right?

NetworkingStudent

knwminus wrote: »

Man I have been chatty today. Btw this thread is not meant as a stab at anyone or any school.

With so many IT "schools" and IT colleges (I think you know the difference) based around certifications and certifying do you guys think that is cheapens certs overall? Do you think in 5 years, there certs you have will hold the same weight in the industry as they do today? I was just thinking about how many Netcads there are out there and how many CCNAs there are out there and I am looking for another way to stand out. I know there are the degrees and experience but I was just thinking about cert wise...

I think what cheapens the certifications is not enough employers require certifications for the positions they’re offering. Also, the HR staff isn’t required to know the amount of work or experience it takes to obtain said certifications. Moreover, I have heard more than once that HR staff don’t even know what the certification initials stand for, for example MCSE. I put a lot of the blame on the companies that issuing these certs for not educating companies on the value of these certs.
I think a lot of schools are fooling them self to believe they can teach Network+ or security + in 12 weeks ( my for profit school I attend has 12 week courses and 10 weeks in the summer), and have the student be able to take and pass the exam for that course. On the other hand a lot of students in my school don’t take the time to study for certifications, because they put all their energy into school. I really believe that more schools should follow the WGU route and make students take the certification, because I believe you learn more from self study rather than studying in the class room.
Note: I do find it funny when my tution is more for the class that the certification covers than the cost of obtaining the cert itself.
Network+ books $80.00
Lab sim under $100.00
Voucher $200.00
The cost of my Network+ class at school $1,200.00 ugh I will never understand that part….

Bl8ckr0uter

NetworkingStudent wrote: »

I think what cheapens the certifications is not enough employers require certifications for the positions they’re offering. Also, the HR staff isn’t required to know the amount of work or experience it takes to obtain said certifications. Moreover, I have heard more than once that HR staff don’t even know what the certification initials stand for, for example MCSE. I put a lot of the blame on the companies that issuing these certs for not educating companies on the value of these certs.
I think a lot of schools are fooling them self to believe they can teach Network+ or security + in 12 weeks ( my for profit school I attend has 12 week courses and 10 weeks in the summer), and have the student be able to take and pass the exam for that course.

I think 12 weeks is more than enough time for Network+ and Sec+ . Just my thoughts.

networker050184

ipconfig.all wrote: »

People should study/train and get qualifications if they have a passion and an interest for it not because they were recommended to or not because an employer wants to or for the money.

Passion and interest have nothing to do with certification IMO. I am constantly learning new things because I have passion for this stuff, but most of it isn't covered in any certification. Some of the people I know that love this stuff the most have little or no certifications.

The certifications are either required or help set you apart form others when looking for employment. Thats why I do them.

Bl8ckr0uter

networker050184 wrote: »

Passion and interest have nothing to do with certification IMO. I am constantly learning new things because I have passion for this stuff, but most of it isn't covered in any certification. Some of the people I know that love this stuff the most have little or no certifications.

The certifications are either required or help set you apart form others when looking for employment. Thats why I do them.

That's exactly how I feel.