Dirty, rotten cheaters

So, what do you do when you suspect someone of dumping? Part of me feels that it's really none of my business - I'm not their boss, after all. But for what it does to the industry, and having sunk quite a bit of time over the years of studying and labbing to earn certs, and still coming up short on occasion, it annoys me that people stoop to such a thing.

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cisco_trooper

It is annoying, but they always show their true colors. This is why I have technical interviews followed by a break fix lab. It is pretty easy to spot them and discount their "achievements."

Devilsbane

Generally nothing. You can always send an e-mail to mcphelp or something, but I doubt anything happens.

cyberguypr

I just remind myself that I am the bigger man and that karma will eventually get them.

Krunchi

jmritenour wrote: »

So, what do you do when you suspect someone of dumping? Part of me feels that it's really none of my business - I'm not their boss, after all. But for what it does to the industry, and having sunk quite a bit of time over the years of studying and labbing to earn certs, and still coming up short on occasion, it annoys me that people stoop to such a thing.

Do you just suspect or do you have Proof?

undomiel

**** get passed around left and right at my work. I just pride myself in knowing that I was able to pass the exams without them. It is also rather funny when I know they've been studying with a **** and they still fail the exam.

WillTech105

cisco_trooper wrote: »

It is annoying, but they always show their true colors. This is why I have technical interviews followed by a break fix lab. It is pretty easy to spot them and discount their "achievements."

Thats all you need to know. Yeah some will get through the door into HR and will even fool people to get the job but the right employer will know quality when they see it. (thats how my employer put it when he hired me).

BobbyDC

Excuse my ignorance, but what are ****?

wrwarwick

BobbyDC wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance, but what are ****?

Brain ****. Basically it's the test questions from a cert exam in a .PDF file or something similar. Some people study the **** to quickly get certified but they hardly learn any of the material.

At my last position I met someone who had gotten their CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and CCDP in the span of maybe 2 months. He explained how he took each CCNP test about 1.5 - 2 weeks apart. After talking more I knew he had dumped it and I sort of felt bad for the guy. When I first met him, I assumed, "Hey, this guy has his CCNP, he must really know his stuff." It was quickly apparent that I was mistaken and I learned he had taken courses through work and studied **** to pass the tests. I felt bad because he seemed to really want to progress in networking; this job was his first networking job and he seemed to love it.

Anyway, **** are bad, against exam policies, and even if you do pass, it is pretty easy to tell that you don't have any idea what you are talking about.

BobbyDC

Thanks. I'm pretty sure I've seen them around on a few torrent sites. Something like actual test, etc.

badrottie

My thoughts on using brain ****? You may have "passed" the certification test, but on our first round of interviews we will certainly pass over you when it is readily apparent that you do not know the material.

cisco_trooper

wrwarwick wrote: »

Brain ****. Basically it's the test questions from a cert exam in a .PDF file or something similar. Some people study the **** to quickly get certified but they hardly learn any of the material.

At my last position I met someone who had gotten their CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and CCDP in the span of maybe 2 months. He explained how he took each CCNP test about 1.5 - 2 weeks apart. After talking more I knew he had dumped it and I sort of felt bad for the guy. When I first met him, I assumed, "Hey, this guy has his CCNP, he must really know his stuff." It was quickly apparent that I was mistaken and I learned he had taken courses through work and studied **** to pass the tests. I felt bad because he seemed to really want to progress in networking; this job was his first networking job and he seemed to love it.

Anyway, **** are bad, against exam policies, and even if you do pass, it is pretty easy to tell that you don't have any idea what you are talking about.

...and this isn't even the worst of it. I mean, this is freaking bad for the certification programs, it ticks off legitimate certification holders, and so on. The worst of it falls directly on the individual who used the ****, and this is the perfect example. This poor sap wants it so bad that he takes shortcuts. The shortcuts get him his certification and he thinks "Yay, now I can do that dream job." Wrong. Now this guy is in quite a predicament. He is not qualified for that dream job as will be revealed in a technical interview that he is granted by the HR representative who is scanning resumes for certifications. Ironically he is now not even qualified for the entry level positions. The HR representative isn't looking for a CCNP for the jr. network admin role. The HR rep is looking for the CCNA. On paper this poor guy is over qualified for the very jobs that could him a legitimate foot in the door and a legitimate chance at succeeding with a little hard work. This guy isn't getting call-back and phone interviews for the jobs he can do. He is getting phone interviews for jobs he can not do. It is a no-win situation for anyone. All that being said, why would anyone want to put themselves in an unemployable situation? It is just plain stupid.

jmritenour

Krunchi wrote: »

Do you just suspect or do you have Proof?

No proof, just a gut feeling. I interact with this individual nearly every day, and he has never once demonstrated even some of the most basic knowledge even one of these certs would imply. He's the type, also, that can memorize something, quote it back to you word for word, and have no idea what he just said. So, putting two and two togeter...

ConradJ

It really gets me when people work off ****. It devalues the cert within the industry. Right now in my area the market is saturated with a ton of people with MCITP:EA and no idea how to do anything.

I went to the same school, did the same course, but now I look like the underdog, even though my experience and ability far outstripped those on my course (by the time I enrolled I had 3+ years experience, no one else had worked in the industry), they are getting the jobs because they all, and I mean all, used ****. So, now employers have lost faith in the certs that I am truly working for. I don't see why I should have to pay the price for lazy good-for-nothings! The frustration level is not worth talking about.

I had a great one not long ago. He was texting me and telling me about a problem he had found and solved in Windows 7. Great. He solved it by Googling it. His reaction? "You would think I would know, I'm certified in it!" Yet his cert was done with a ****, of course he doesn't know. Geeeeeez.

Turgon

jmritenour wrote: »

So, what do you do when you suspect someone of dumping? Part of me feels that it's really none of my business - I'm not their boss, after all. But for what it does to the industry, and having sunk quite a bit of time over the years of studying and labbing to earn certs, and still coming up short on occasion, it annoys me that people stoop to such a thing.

I shouldn't worry. This industry is merciless to people who simply dont have the skills. To go further, once you move through the design jobs it becomes impossible to fake it when a deployment depends on your technical judgement. Interestingly it's not just wannabee entry level people who use them. I have met several CCIE's who swear by tk to get through the written recert.

djfunz

If one really finds the material interesting, why wouldn't one not wanna just study it? I would think most of us in the industry have to really like the material covered in these exams because it can get really technical. I personally find it fascinating that we have the ability these days to emulate and configure routers and virtualize servers with a middle of the road laptop. Ever since I started studying for the ICND1, it's like being taken out of the Matrix and shown how the real world works when it comes to networks and protocols. I'm actually subnetting in my spare time now. I probably look a little crazy to my girlfriend though.

MrRyte

wrwarwick wrote: »

I felt bad because he seemed to really want to progress in networking; this job was his first networking job and he seemed to love it.

If he "really wanted to progress in networking" then why did he choose the shortcut by using ****? The IT landscape is challenging enough without these lazy people trying to sneak in and screwing things up for the rest of us who try diligently to hone their IT skills.

I have no sympathy at all for a "dumpster"......

blargoe

I don't bother reporting people for this unless it directly impacts me negatively... one time, I reported someone to my boss, because the guy was training to help offload some of the work that I had on my plate, but he pretty much just went to one of those bootcamps and got the ******** **** sheet and got the paper cert instead of actually training. That just pissed me off.

RomBUS

I honestly don't care that I know someone else is dumping. Countless times I talk to a colleague and asked them what they use to study and when they mention like a **** site or **** program, I just try to suggest something better for them and tell them you know memorizing is only going to get you so far. I do not know if they follow my advice but I always told them going the right way has brought me success in these exams. If they dont listen then it's their problem TBH

it_consultant

jmritenour wrote: »

No proof, just a gut feeling. I interact with this individual nearly every day, and he has never once demonstrated even some of the most basic knowledge even one of these certs would imply. He's the type, also, that can memorize something, quote it back to you word for word, and have no idea what he just said. So, putting two and two togeter...

I don't see this as evidence of dumping then. You have a person with a near photographic memory, which is great. I know people who have gotten certifications and I know they didn't **** to get them and they still had minimal real knowledge of what is truly happening in a system. A cert is a base of knowledge.

DigitalZeroOne

wrwarwick wrote: »

At my last position I met someone who had gotten their CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and CCDP in the span of maybe 2 months. He explained how he took each CCNP test about 1.5 - 2 weeks apart. After talking more I knew he had dumped it and I sort of felt bad for the guy. When I first met him, I assumed, "Hey, this guy has his CCNP, he must really know his stuff." It was quickly apparent that I was mistaken and I learned he had taken courses through work and studied **** to pass the tests. I felt bad because he seemed to really want to progress in networking; this job was his first networking job and he seemed to love it.

While I believe that it is possible, and I see you definitely have more networking experience than I do...but it seems to me that it would be rather difficult to pass Cisco exams with ****. I passed ICND 1, and there was a lot of hands-on questions, I had to know how to subnet quickly, and configure switches on the exam. I'm just in awe that someone could **** that type of exam...and then pass higher level Cisco exams.

nel

Ive come across all levels of technical people using them...even those who have the IE.

Passing an exam is one thing, knowing your sh1t is another.

erpadmin

I want to take a different tact to this argument.

When we think of "certification," what are we thinking of? What is being certified? Your knowledge/experience, or the fact that you can pass exams?

Many people try to get certified because they're under the impression that cert A will lead to salary A, or will ask the same question almost everyday about which certifications should one take to get that blessed job in IT.

I don't see this in job descriptions:

certifications in lieu of experience.

In fact I tend to see this more (and nowadays less frequently):

education in lieu of experience OR experience in lieu of education

From my understanding, certifications tend to be very important to employers if that employer is a vendor partner. Even then, that employer will still want you to know some stuff.

I had assisted in an interview not to long ago for a jr. DBA position. I asked a simple question of what application do you use to run T-SQL queries against a SQL 2000 database (Query Analyzer). Guy did not know it...kept saying Enterprise Manager. (And while you can bring up Query Analyzer from Enterprise Manager, he couldn't even explain how Enterprise Manager could be used to run T-SQL queries.) The guy claimed he was an MCDBA, to boot.

I'm proud that I've earned all of my certs, properly. However, dumping is a dark cloud that will loom over every certified IT professional. It will always lead to this simple question: Are you certifying knowledge of an exam or are you certifying experience?

cxzar20

I have never used brain ****, but frankly I don't care. I can see the use of certifications but their importance for HR really bothers me. If the value of all certifications dropped to the point of uselessness I wouldn't care even with what I have so far. I wish IT was more like other forms of Engineering where your emphasis is put on experience/college rather than some piece of paper from a vendor.

I wouldn't mind a professional engineering license from the state much like in Engineering, but everything else could disappear for all I care. The ONLY reason I have my certifications is so that I am not at a competitive disadvantage in the rat race. My education got me into the field and promoted, but my experience is where I derived my skill set from.

Psoasman

jmritenour wrote: »

So, what do you do when you suspect someone of dumping? Part of me feels that it's really none of my business - I'm not their boss, after all. But for what it does to the industry, and having sunk quite a bit of time over the years of studying and labbing to earn certs, and still coming up short on occasion, it annoys me that people stoop to such a thing.

Suspecting is one thing, knowing is another. If I knew one of my co-workers was cheating, I would call them on it. Loosing all your certs and being barred from taking future certs should be a good deterrent, but often is not. I've taken 17 exams so, far and passed them by taking the time to use the legitimate materials such as books, white papers, and labbing.

Taking a cert should validate the knowledge and experience you've acquired by studying and working.

PC509

undomiel wrote: »

I just pride myself in knowing that I was able to pass the exams without them.

Same here. I know others do it, but I refuse to. I pass on my knowledge. Which is the reason to take the exam: to prove that I have that knowledge. Yes, them cheating does make some employers second guess the certification, but by proving it with experience and a good technical interview, I hope to prove that I didn't use a ****. Only **** I've ever..... nevermind.

If I don't know enough to pass the exam, I'll fail it without cheating. If I pass, then I truly know my stuff. But, if I **** it and pass it, it's still a fail in my book.

Technically, I did use a **** on one exam. Ham radio exam. The developers release every question that's on the exam and give it to you up front. I thought that was really weird. Although, with that, you WANT to learn what you can before you get on the air.

Somnipotent

there are so many guys in my shop that use ****... insomuch it shows. when the new guy (me) had to show a "CCNP" how to statically route something, you know there's a problem with the system. i do know some guys study their eyeballs out and know their crap and use **** to get past the test, but i wouldn't go to say they have no idea what they're doing. like everyone else has said, when the rubber meets the road, you'll know who a real CCNA and who's not.

Turgon

Somnipotent wrote: »

there are so many guys in my shop that use ****... insomuch it shows. when the new guy (me) had to show a "CCNP" how to statically route something, you know there's a problem with the system. i do know some guys study their eyeballs out and know their crap and use **** to get past the test, but i wouldn't go to say they have no idea what they're doing. like everyone else has said, when the rubber meets the road, you'll know who a real CCNA and who's not.

I have no empircal evidence to back this up, but based on 14 years of experience in the field and exposure to a LOT of people, most people use ****. Clean testers on TE are not 'most people'. I have worked in professional environments where people thought it was borderline strange I had a homelab and even stranger I bought into the 'con' of paying Cisco to take exams I might fail because I didn't use the 'very accurate' way. 'Why dont you use the ******' I was advised for the written way back, including from a timeserved CCIE! I was alarmed when I first started mixing in those circles, but it goes on.

You have a choice to make in this industry.

QHalo

Let's be honest, there are plenty of people that may be able to pass the exam without a **** and still be clueless. Just because the guy can't answer a question doesn't mean he dumped his exam. People should really be careful calling someone a cheater without proof. Here's something you may remember from school, some people are really good at passing exams without really knowing the material.

Sett

I feel more people use **** then the ones who don't. It's the human nature - most of the people would **** if they know they can do it and get a free pass. I've seen many CCNPs who are total joke. The truth is very few certs could presuppose actual skill - those which you can't **** - CCIE, JNCIE, RHCE etc..

Just take a look at the 7 most-searched-for thread tags on this forum:
"70-682 70-685 ccna **** passed ccna wgu wgu referral"
[Edit by Webmaster: the search tables including the search tag cloud were very recently reset and the fact it's amongst those 7 says basically nothing about how often it is searched for at TE (it actually means 1 person clicked searched for the "tag" at http://www.techexams.net/forums/tags/ - that said, unfortunately Turgon is right. I like to believe the majority of our members come here to really learn something though. Anyway, this horse was dead already many years ago, plus it's depressing, closing it.]

Turgon

Sett wrote: »

I feel more people use **** then the ones who don't. It's the human nature - most of the people would **** if they know they can do it and get a free pass. I've seen many CCNPs who are total joke. The truth is very few certs could presuppose actual skill - those which you can't **** - CCIE, JNCIE, RHCE etc..

Just take a look at the 7 most-searched-for thread tags on this forum:
"70-682 70-685 ccna **** passed ccna wgu wgu referral"

You can **** the CCIE lab exam. Its been going on for years.