Educational Options

I'll give you some more food for thought. What I did was take everything from the Army (plus classes I did while in, you have time to knock out one or two), plus some other test out options (like CLEP) and went to Excelsior. This was before online classes even got half, but since I took a job as a contractor UMUC was still there. One physical course a semester is all it takes to get the BAH. Doing it that way I timed it so I would still have 2 years of GI bill left when I finished (ended up with 22mo and 22days) so I could do a masters on it as well. Of course... company ended up offering to pay for the Masters, so I still have those 2 years (VA has no rules about getting a second BS or MS). Don't forget, there is a cap on how much tuition they will pay, so make sure your school is under it (some offer the yellow ribbon at 50/50 to make up for higher costs).

I see you have Sec+, while that's a good place to start, you're going to want more. You can use the GI bill for that, but it's a waste IMO. Look for schools that will either give you some credit for certs (Excelsior, WGU, Thomas Edison, etc all do) or a program with certs in it (WGU), I'm sure there's more than those few that do it.

An AS is really not worth it, unless you're using it just to transfer to a better school. A family friend of mine is a 30 year professor at Cornell, he said if you want to go to better schools don't apply to them, transfer in. Better schools have really low acceptance rates (like 10%) but much higher (near 80%) for transfer students.

Thanks for the response.

In late July I begin terminal leave, and anything that involves using government networks or CAC authentication does not appeal to me after that point unless it's as a government employee or contractor. I am not objecting to the idea of taking online classes. However, the housing allowance with the Post 9/11 G.I. Bill is 1/2 the normal rate for online-only schedules, which eliminates schools such as WGU from consideration for me. That's a substantial difference in monthly income. Also, their is no tuition cap for public schools, only for private schools.

I know that I'll want more certifications; that's part of the reason why I'm pursuing higher education. The program at Bates prepares students for certifications including: A+, MCITP, MCP, MCDST, MCSE, MCSA, CCNA, and many others. The G.I. Bill will cover the costs of those examinations. The school gives credit for current certifications as well. I fail to see how that's a waste. It's not as if your G.I. Bill benefits last forever - they're meant to be used. The associates is transferable to the University of Washington; which I believe would qualify as a "better school". It would also provide the added flexibility of allowing myself to test the job market after trade school. Depending on job offers, I'd then have the choice of re-entering the work force or transferring to pursue my bachelor's.

That's great that your employer was willing to pay for your Master's, but I am not in such a position. Yes, like many others, I wish I would've taken more advantage of my educational opportunities while I was on active-duty, but that often times sounds easier than actual experiences would have permitted. But I digress, it's really not important at this point as I can not control that. All I can control is what I do now, and it would be foolish not to utilize and maximize the outstanding educational benefits at my disposal.

Just remember that cert tests count against your months of benefits (they explained how they figure out how many days/months to cut off, but I forget how it works exactly). Make sure you factor that in so you don't end up with a semester left and no more benefits.

What I did, the first year I got out, was to do 2 online and one night course (for the physical requirement) which allowed me to get the full BAH and hold a full time job.

My point was that you can get more educational benefits, if you don't need that full BAH to survive. If the school you pick is liberal with taking non-traditional credits (ACE approved ones, like your Army training, DLPT, CLEP, etc) then you could speed up the degree enough that you could get both a BS and a MS off those 36 months.

Have you spoken to Washington to make sure that everything will transfer from the AS you will get? It would not be fun to find out later that only half the credits transferred over. One of the guys I worked with had over 160 credit hours before he got his degree people he transferred schools in the middle and they didn't take everything.

Overall it looks like an ok plan, just thought I'd point out some other options. One thing you could do, while on terminal (since you can't get the BAH until you're fully ETSd) would be to take a CLEP exam or StraighterLine (as long as your planned school accepts those credits, most do) to get some credits knocked out for cheap. Both are in the range of 100-140USD, but CLEP and DANTES are free (first shot) while on AD (I'm pretty sure terminal counts, I know you can't use TA on terminal).

okplaya

First off, Hooah!

I started out at a local community college once I was discharged, but soon realized how long it would take. I worked full time and went to school full time during the evenings. I did a hybrid online/on campus program and was able to finish in 3 1/2 years which isn't bad. I could have finished sooner if I didn't burn the time at community college for my first 24 credits. I will admit that this was before the post 9/11 was available and so BAH was not even a consideration for me.

I would go to a 4 year school from the beginning as well. If this is your end goal, no point in going to a 2 year program. If you don't get accepted initially, be sure to transfer in after 12-15 credits or whatever they require to be considered a transfer student. Also, make sure you take general classes that you know will transfer in.

I appreciate the feedback.

Valascar:

There is no longer a restriction on the number of certification exams under the Chapter 33, Post 9/11 G.I. Bill. I have attempted to research your claim that certifications reduce your monthly benefits, but I have found no information to support that. It does not appear to be accurate to me.

That sounds like it was a wise plan taking online and night classes in order to work a normal full-time schedule. However, I do not currently have a job lined up and my emphasis is on education. I'm hoping to find employment (preferably in Information Technology, but not exclusively) that will fit around my class schedule and not the other way around.

I don't need the full BAH to survive per say, but I believe it only makes sense to maximize the benefit I've earned. The difference is roughly $27,000 over the duration of the benefit. That's a lot of money to leave on the table, and again, it's a finite benefit that is meant to be used.

Bates lists their Associate of Technology degrees as being transferable to University of Washington. I have not spoken to U.W. yet, as I am still waiting to speak to an advisor at Bates to confirm this. I did speak with the military/veteran's liason at the financial aid office, and I am able to use tuition assistance while on terminal leave. So long as you are on active-duty status, it is available. I would then simply transfer over to the Post 9/11 G.I. Bill once I have ETS'ed and received my DD214.

Again, I wish I would've taken more advantage of the time and options I had while in service, but it has not been that cut-and-dry. My combined military training was nearly a year long, at which point college would've been physically impossible. I was overseas for 14 months, and have been back for about as long. My schedule in that timeframe has been extremely busy and my life utterly chaotic and turbulent: full of life-altering events, never-ending medical appointments, family emergencies and crises, major transition, and other issues. All that aside, the soonest I could've physically started a non-online school would have been Fall 2011. However, I was strongly considering re-enlisting up until March of this year, and I did not see the wisdom in starting a college program if I was to be stationed elsewhere and re-classify into a different occupational specialty (mine has been over strength for over a year, making it ineligible for re-enlistment. I exhausted nearly all other military career options). I've spent the last few months since then carefully deciding what I wanted to go to school for. After listening to the advice of a career counselor and others, I decided that staying in information technology was in my best interest.

okplaya:

Hooaaah!

Part of the reason I want to attend the two-year school is admission. I have already surpassed the deadline for fall semester at University of Washington, and I would like to begin as soon as possible. I would have to wait until at least winter semester to begin taking classes, whereas I could begin in fall at Bates and use two months of active-duty benefits, saving two months from my G.I. Bill. I would still be able to earn industry certifications and a degree which would allow me to test the job market after graduation, and depending on the offers, could find employment or go back to school and earn my bachelors.

dpb wrote:

Bates lists their Associate of Technology degrees as being transferable to University of Washington. I have not spoken to U.W. yet, as I am still waiting to speak to an advisor at Bates to confirm this.

This should really be the only factor at this point. If your credits will transfer 80% or more to U.W., then the 2-year degree makes sense. If it does not transfer well, it is not wise to go there. While the prospect of more immediate return from a shorter, more IT-oriented degree may be attractive, the reality is that the degree on its own is almost worthless. The vast majority of employers will not put enough value on a two-year degree for it to be a substantial factor in the hiring decision. A general rule that applies, in my experience, to over 99% of employers is that if they will accept a candidate with only a two-year degree they will accept a candidate with no degree. Skills, experience, attitude, likability, interviewing skills, and resume quality are all much higher factors. The education factor is more meeting a binary requirement: Does the candidate have a degree that fits within X requirement?

As far as preparing you for certifications, self-study is a more effective use of time and money for 90% of certification training. It may seem advantageous to "kill two birds with one stone" and get a degree that assists in certifications, but the reality is that degree is generally of such low market value that the advantage gets lost in the time spent not directly studying certification material.

On the other hand, if you can confirm that most or all of the degree will transfer to a four-year degree, then and only then does this plan make sense, in my opinion.

If you really, really want the certs-and-degree-at-the-same-time approach, it would be worth the money, in my opinion, to consider WGU. Even if the GI bill only pays half of the education, the other half is well worth the cost of the training material you'll get in the cert-heavy WGU degrees. The only flexibility and go-at-you-own-pace methodology can also justify the cost, compared to a degree program which ultimately has very defined time constraints as a result of having to physically go to class and do homework, regardless of your level of competency with the subjects being taught.

the_Grinch

I agree avoid the Associates and look to go for the full bachelors. Also, check to see if the schools you are looking at have a program for Post 911 GI Bill military members. Drexel has a program where they will take whatever you get from the Post 911 GI Bill and then make up the difference so you would attend for free/very low cost. I know a couple of schools also have programs like that. Also, aim for Computer Science or Information Technology as a major. Good luck!

bellhead

dpb,

I would highly look at the UW degree, even with the general educational requirements it's ability to open doors in Washington State will be much higher than any online degree. Also the current employer I word for does not count online schools as a degree, HR views them as diploma mills and will not accept them. An online degree may get your foot in the door at an employer but it doesn't provide you the people networking that the B&M school will and doesn't have the job placement services either. As for online schools during the next several years you are going to see a lot of lobbying by traditional institutions to get them labelled as diploma mills and have their accreditation pulled due to their lack of education with their faculty. The brick and mortar schools can meet a much higher accreditation than an online school. "I know this for certain as my wife is a tenured professor and has been involved in committee work on this"

As for the 2 year degree make sure it is ABET accredited this also matters to a lot of employers and you will see it mentioned in USA JOBS ads as well.

Also one thing you haven't posted is your clearance, do what ever you can if you have a TS/SCI clearance to keep that puppy active.

One more thing have you though about reserves???

I'm not looking at online schools. The two year program I am referring to is not online, either. It is a regionally accredited technical school and lists their associates IT program as transferable to the University of Washington, I just need confirmation of that. If it is, then I think it's a good option to consider, and if it isn't, then I'll look at four years of UW.

I have a TS/SCI clearance. I inquired about the National Guard and Reserves but I was informed by a reserve career counselor that I was medically ineligible for both.

ptilsen:

I agree. It makes sense if it is transferable. I just wanted to get feedback from the members here on these options.

okplaya

bellhead wrote: »

dpb,

As for online schools during the next several years you are going to see a lot of lobbying by traditional institutions to get them labelled as diploma mills and have their accreditation pulled due to their lack of education with their faculty. The brick and mortar schools can meet a much higher accreditation than an online school. "I know this for certain as my wife is a tenured professor and has been involved in committee work on this"

"Online School" is a pretty broad term. Whether online or on campus, the most important thing is that the school be regionally accredited. I'm pretty sure the trend is going the other way where most traditional schools are offering online courses and not lobbying against them. Even some of the top schools, such as Harvard and Penn, have online programs. The fact is that technology has allowed education to expand beyond the classroom.

Lots of good points in this thread, let me go down a few.

With the VA stuff, it's always best to ask them directly vice any information us random people on a forum say, but here's a link to their Questions page on the certifications: https://gibill.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/29/kw/certification%209%2F11/related/1 The key part is:

"There is no limit to the number of tests you can take and we will reduce your remaining months of entitlement based on the cost of the test that we reimburse. The amount of entitlement reduced is proportionate for the cost of the test compared to your full-time monthly rate."

On the TA issue, talk to the councilors at the Ed Center. Unless they changed it in the last 2 years (I ETS'd 2 years ago) the Army will not allow you to use TA on terminal leave. The justification was that if you fail the class they will have to go through a costly collections method to get the money back (were if you were still AD it would be easy to just take your pay). The cost of doing so is generally more than they're collecting, but they still "have" to do it. I fought it a bit when I was leaving and was able to get permission to take courses that ended 1 month into my 3 months of terminal leave (but general policy says the classes have to end before terminal leave).

UW most likely will accept some CLEP/DANTES type ones, that's what I would do before starting there directly. Even if you have to pay, it's pretty cheap (around a hundred bucks each). There's a lot of other cheap ones out there too (StraighterLine, about 140/class, ALEKS 20/mo for math courses that you can do in a week, etc). As long as UW will take the ACE approved credits (and it's not over the transfer limit) it's just like doing the 2 year school and then transferring over.

The clearance... that's something you should thing about. Around 1 year after you stop using it the clearance will go inactive, which to 90% of employers means you basically no longer have one (it can be reactivated before your next re-eval, but it still costs a chunk of money to do that). Guard and Reserve are the best way to keep it active, but you said that's not an option for you... that leaves work.

You're right, the goal should always be to maximize your benefits, the question is which way do you want to maximize it? You have two options, get the most education possible out of it (in theory, using accelerated programs, you could get your BS, MS and a few certs off those 36 months) or get the most BAH in your pocket (hopefully to save and invest).

If you happen to be on a base near where you want to live (but even if not), I'd take your last few months to network as much as possible with the contractors. That's what I did (though, for my last few years) and was able to sign out on terminal and start working the same day. Even if you don't want to go into work right away, or work in that area (most of the companies are world-wide) it would still do you well to collect those contacts while you have a chance.

P.S. Good luck on your upcoming disability battle with the VA, it's been 2 years and still going for me

My co-worker applied a year after me and is already done, but he's contesting it so he's back in the fight! :P

I'll call the base education center today to confirm the terminal leave tuition assistance policy. If I can't utilize tuition assistance, then I wouldn't be able to begin school until January 2013.

EDIT: It looks like tuition assistance can be used on terminal leave so long as the courses can be completed prior to ETS, which in my case would not (ETS is October 19, end of fall semester would be December). January 2013 it is.

Looks like the two programs at Bates Technical I was most interested in are not transferable to University of Washington. According to the adviser, only Database Management, Web Development, and Software Development transfer. I feel a bit lost now. Unless I choose one of those programs, it would mean a bachelor's is out of reach going through Bates. The other option is to go straight to University of Washington or to complete an associates at a local community college (that is minutes away from my apartment) to satisfy the undergraduate requirements.

"You're right, the goal should always be to maximize your benefits, the question is which way do you want to maximize it? You have two options, get the most education possible out of it (in theory, using accelerated programs, you could get your BS, MS and a few certs off those 36 months) or get the most BAH in your pocket (hopefully to save and invest)."

Ideally I'd like to accomplish both. I want to do what would be best for a career in IT while also maximizing the BAH and the benefit, if possible. I set the direct-deposit to go a high-yield savings account. I intend to save every dime of that benefit.

I've befriended one of the technicians at the Network Enterprise Center here, and I will be living in the same location once I seperate from service. It would be great to work there, I just figured I didn't have the credentials to be a real consideration, and I did inquire about job openings. Believe me, I don't want to lose the TS either.

Thanks for the luck with the VA. I'm hoping for at least 50% disability. I've already submitted my pre-discharge disability claims and underwent the medical evaluations. Unfortunately, they can not begin the review and rating process until the day after my ETS.

Just wanted to thank everyone who has taken the time to respond and offer advice. I really appreciate it.

Honestly, at this point my opinion is that you should go to the AA. I understand and empathize with your unspoken, but assumed apprehension to do that. My own route was to go to ITT, with the thought of completing a two-year degree and then a four-year degree, both containing the bare minimum of generals legally possible in the State of Minnesota and the country (anything different and they wouldn't be degree programs). The advantages are pretty self-evident; limited time spent on generals that aren't directly applicable to one's career and lots of time spent in classes that are directly applicable to one's career. While the quality, cost, and even ethics issues at ITT are generally not going to be present in an AAS or AS program at a local community/technical college, the more serious problems are.

First, as you found, the degrees don't transfer to reputable four-year degrees. This ultimately makes the degree itself wasted, and something you'll potentially regret later.

Second, as you've not yet experienced, the classes really aren't that applicable to one's career, and in fact they tend to be a complete waste of time compared to self-study. Regardless of how you learn (lectures, hands-on, reading, etc.), the classroom IT classes are simply not an efficient or effective way to learn most infrastructure topics. You're not going to leave most two-year programs as a competent systems administrator or network engineer. This is generally true regardless of the program; what one needs to truly succeed and to excel in IT infrastructure is simply not provided in these programs. No matter where you go and what you pay, you ultimately have to learn it yourself. Having years of experience under your belt, you probably already have learned much of it.

The advantage of the AA is that it's an easy and cheap way to get college credit before going to a four-year. The AA should transfer 100% (but verify this), and you'll ultimately take just as many classes if you go straight there instead, only they'll cost more. You want to go to the four-year program eventually, and when you do you'll have to have those generals done no matter what. So my advice is go do the AA part-time and study for about one certification exam a quarter, maybe two depending on what you're looking at. You'll still be getting incremental tech skills and credentials this way, which will have more immediate returns on investment in your career. By the time you move onto the four-year program, you'll have a lot of experience and valuable certifications on your resume, and can probably back off on certifications a bit while you focus on a presumably harder four-year degree.

Thanks for your advice ptilsen. Knowing what I do now, I agree. I think I have to ultimately look at the bachelors degree since the trade school will not transfer (unless I choose Software/Web Development, or Database Management). I can't utilize the military tuition assistance for class in fall, or make full use of my Post 9/11 G.I. Bill until after October 19th. That puts a firm school target date of January 2013.

Since online-only schools equate to half the monthly income I would receive, it becomes a less viable option for me. The question then becomes four years at University of Washington, or two years at the local community college to satisfy the undergraduate requirements and then transfer? I guess the smart thing to do would be to apply to both schools. If I am not admitted to UW or there is an extended waiting period, then I suppose I would have my answer.

The only other considerations I have outside of that is finding a way to maintain my security clearance and to study for certifications and finance them (books, exams, etc.) both now and while I am in school.

Start cheap and use money wisely. Unless going into a CCNP/CCIE path, most certification costs are really not that bad IMO. Even to do 3-5 subset MS certs to get an MCITP, MCSA, or MCSE title you're typically looking at around $1000 to $2000 total costs. That sounds like a lot, but look at the subsets. Doing a single exam will typically be only $200-$400 total cost. Do them slowly over time and that should be bearable. CompTIA are even cheaper, although probably not advisable at this point in your career.

I really think the AA is the best approach. If I had to do everything all over again, I would have gone to an AA, then my current university. I lost about $30K and 18 months of my life the way I went. Going straight to the four-year is fine, but no one will ever know that you got half your degree at a community college, nor will they care even if they did. The community college credits will generally be much less expensive, even 1/5 or 1/10 the price. I guess that's a non-factor if it will be 100% paid for. Even so, I still think the classes will be less stressful and less challenging -- the reality is that AA degrees generally teach to a lower common denominator than traditional universities. In some ways that's a negative, but I think it would make more sense for you to have more time and energy to focus on certification self-study. Attending a traditional university will really not leave you with much time or energy for that, which is why I think the AA approach makes the most sense.

Either way, as long as you end up going for the four-year program you will be fine.

Cost is a non-factor as the benefit will pay 100% of all tuition/fees of any public institution for 36 months, a $1,000 annual book/supply stipend, tutoring assistance, and other benefits paid directly to the school. The monthly housing allowance is tax-free, based on the zip code of the school, and paid directly to the student (roughly $1,500 a month for where I will be attending).

I think the flexibility of the community college class schedule might be greater than that of the four year university, which would help as far as employment while I am in school the first two years. Online classes are an option as well, so long as I have at least one or two physical classes to satisfy the full BAH allowance requirement, otherwise the rate is half.

spicy ahi

Out in left field suggestion, but have you checked out the EE program at Tacoma CC? I know a lot of friends who went the EE route for their degrees then picked up GS-12 positions with the Corp of Engineers or other Engineering agencies then after a year leveraged their status to transfer over to equivalent or higher graded positions in the IT (2210 series) field. If civper status is a goal, I'd humbly suggest taking a look at that route. While it's not true everywhere, I think in general that it's easier to earn certs than it is to break into the civper side and EE is from what I've seen the easiest route to get in and transition over to IT. Other than going civper overseas like in Germany or Korea.

I'm actually looking into pursuing an EE degree (already have a degree in IT) because of this. I've been bypassed by guys with EE degrees and a Sec+ so many times now I can't even count so at least where I'm at there's got to be something to it. Either that or I'm doing something wrong.

MeanDrunkR2D2

Personally, what i would do is work with UW, and take as many gen ed courses at a local community college that UW tells you are transferable. After you get most of those knocked out and transferable, I would then go on to UW and finish out your bachelors degree there. Technical institutes aren't the best course of action in many cases (Some exceptions here and there) as the degree's aren't always transferable or recognized by other colleges.

If I were to go back in time and do things over, I'd have done enough at my local CC and taken transferable courses (many local CC"s work closely with bigger state colleges if they are in the same state and will tell you on a form what courses transfer and what doesn't). Now, you may be inclined to get your AA, don't. You'll end up getting your Bachelors from UW, so an AA doesn't matter much, plus you'd take alot of fluff classes that don't transfer to UW. The cost of CC is generally far less than a traditional state school, so you'd save yourself money in the long term.

So if you were to ask me what I would do if I were in your shoes. CC for most gen ed and some IT related courses that transfer and goes as credit towards graduation, then finish up at the 4 year school.

The AA itself is of no value, but many universities accept local or even regional CC's AAs as a full block. In MN, for example, any Minnesota State Colleges and Universities AA degree will transfer as a full 60-credit block to any four-year program. My recommendation of finishing the AA is contingent upon a similar agreement between Washington public institutions. If the AA does not fully transfer to the four-year program, then it probably doesn't make sense. The degree itself has absolutely no value in the IT market, and virtually no value in any job market, for that matter.

Good news is they finally corrected that stupid TA/terminal leave policy, but unfortunately it doesn't help you.

IMO the best option right now is to self-study for CLEP/DANTES while they're still free (just check with UW, should be somewhere on their website) to see which ones will go towards your degree. Those are some free (books at the library) credits right there. You can also look at a few other cheap options while you wait to be able to start a full program. This site, I used during my BS, has a ton of great information on ways to study and other alternative credit sources: CLEP Forum - CLEP Study - CLEP Testing - Study Guide and Strategies You just need to find out what your school will accept, and how many credits they will take (some have limits). You should be able to get at least the first year out of the way for cheap, and quick if you're focused on it. StraighterLine is a great option, they have basically all your first year gen ed classes (costs about 1000).

I would also look at some certs, the basics, that will transfer and be useful later in your career.

As long as you're ok with self-study, and really dedicated, you could easily get your first year of schooling done before you have a chance to actually start. Then, as I did, continue taking some extra CLEP type classes (again, up to the limit your school will accept) while doing normal ones (it is doable, just takes a lot of dedication and very little party time). In theory, you could complete the whole BS program in 2 years (of benefit usage, if your school will accept enough transfer credits) and that leaves 12 months of benefits to apply to a Masters (WGU is doable in a year, but the lower BAH) or use that to fund more certs.

Overall, I think you're better than most people are when it comes to options. Also, you're better now than you were a few days ago when you first posted your question. You got a lot of feedback and suggestions, which luckily led to you finding out your intended plan won't work. It would have been REALLY bad to find out it wouldn't work AFTER you spent 2 years getting the AA/AS.

paul78

@dpd - Is University of Washington/Tacoma related to the Univetsity of Washington in Seattle. Something you may want to consider is that the comp sci program at University of Washington is considered one of the best in the US. A degree from the CS school is very highly respected in IT industry.

Paul: it's the same university, just different campuses. I'm not sure if Computer Science is something I'd want to take. I know almost nothing about programming and I know it's very math heavy, which is not an area I'm particularly strong at.

I'm leaning right now towards going to the community college and transferring to UW once I meet the general education requirements.

MeanDrunkR2D2

Many IT degree's will include some level of programming. In the end, it wasn't that bad (and math wasn't my strong point) But I was able to claw through those courses to get them out of the way although I knew that I would not want to do anything related to programming in the real world. I knew nothing about programming, but now at least I understand the concepts behind it and respect them for what they do.