CCIE's without real-world experience

Has anyone managed to obtain their CCIE without real-world experience? If so, how did that work out for you?

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I've only heard of this guy doing it: How long does it take to become a CCIE from 0?

But that was all the way back in Windows NT/95 days. I've known buddies of mine that work at Cisco as Sr. Network Engineers that took a couple years of labbing/studying and a few fails to pass the CCIE lab exam. I'm sure there are exceptional people out there that can do it but it's rare.

NetworkVeteran

Eildor wrote: »

Has anyone managed to obtain their CCIE without real-world experience? If so, how did that work out for you?

We call those "lab rats". As you might expect, it often doesn't work out particular well for the candidate. Cisco recommends a minimum of 3-5 years of real-world experience.

http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/32086-unemployed-ccie.html
https://supportforums.cisco.com/thread/3177
GroupStudy.com - CCIE, CCNA, CCNP and other Cisco Certifications

NOC-Ninja

I havent met anyone that have done this. However, i think anything is possible. The problem here is who will take a chance on you if you dont have any experience. AT&T? Verizon? small ISP?

A CCIE without experience will get destroyed with real world questions.

Ryan82

Not sure why this is a reoccurring theme. Certs complement experience, not replace it.

Early on in your career when you are trying to get first networking gig, I think it's a great idea to study for and obtain your CCNA. This means it will probably take a little less effort to get you trained as a network admin.

You can't be an expert without experience.

Eildor

I am not saying that a CCIE can replace experience, nor do I believe this. However, I do not see how going through the learning and labbing process which is required for a CCIE is going to harm oneself. Whether this individual passes or fails, or perhaps he doesn't even attempt the exams, would he not have learnt a great deal from the process which in return should improve his employability? The level of theoretical knowledge needed for CCIE is huge, and then there is also the practical/lab aspect... if someone were able to reach that level would that not show that they are serious about networking, and show that they have the ability to pick up difficult concepts?

And just to clear things up, I am not suggesting that a CCIE without experience would be going for a senior position. They would still be looking for an entry level type position.

WafflesAndRootbeer

NOC-Ninja wrote: »

I havent met anyone that have done this. However, i think anything is possible. The problem here is who will take a chance on you if you dont have any experience. AT&T? Verizon? small ISP?

A CCIE without experience will get destroyed with real world questions.

They are more common overseas than here due to the plethora of Cisco Super Bootcamps (huge in Asia) in foreign countries (a lot of people want to move here and get those tasty salaries) but the simple fact of the matter is that most networking professionals who shoot for the CCIE do not get/have the experience required to perform CCIE level work and many who pass the test do not pass with scores that reflect a skilled network engineer. This is why companies MUST do on-the-job training if they want quality workers.

xbuzz

The problem is, that for along time, CCIE was something only the top people in the profession could aspire to do, the CCIE certification became synonymous with being the most experienced person, the best and pinnacle of the profession, and that is why alot of experience networking people these days have a weird look on their faces when they even think of someone with a CCIE without much or any experience, because they equate the CCIE to all these things, when infact it is just a certification.

The fact is, the CCIE is not synonymous with experience anymore. Whereas 10-15 years ago you needed to have experience to complete the cert, because the learning curve was so steep and there was a vast lack of study materials, these days there are a huge amount of resources, that someone with no experience can use to get the CCIE, dozens of books, videos, bootcamps, nothing is unknown anymore. For someone who is smart, it is "relatively" easier to get a CCIE now because the information is laid out right infront of them. The hardest part in the acquisition of knowledge is knowing where to find it, afterall.

I think the question is asked alot on these boards, because new people to the industry come in with fresh eyes, myself included. We look at this certification and we just equate it to that, a certification, whereas the old-school of IT equate it to alot more than that, experience, time-served etc and i'm guessing some old-schoolers actually find it offensive that the level of knowledge required to get the CCIE is so readily available these days that bright people can do it without any experience. Us new people to the IT world thus find it weird, that someone who has achieved this high educational certification is actually looked down upon. You wouldn't find it in any other industry. Look at all the PhD holders with no experience. I would guess at the end of a PhD the majority of the PhD holders actually have no experience when they start off looking for jobs in the work place.

It's just the way technology and learning goes. PhDs used to be extremely rare, now everyone and their dog has them. It's not to say that theyre any less difficult to achieve, but for society to progress in technology, education has always tried to enable newer generations to reach the highest levels of learning alot faster than before. The same with the CCIE, the technology isn't "magic" anymore, and the eductional institutes and training bodies have caught up to the technology, allowing people to get to the "pinnacle" of learning faster.

NOC-Ninja

WafflesAndRootbeer wrote: »

They are more common overseas than here due to the plethora of Cisco Super Bootcamps (huge in Asia) in foreign countries (a lot of people want to move here and get those tasty salaries) but the simple fact of the matter is that most networking professionals who shoot for the CCIE do not get/have the experience required to perform CCIE level work and many who pass the test do not pass with scores that reflect a skilled network engineer. This is why companies MUST do on-the-job training if they want quality workers.

I agree with you. What I am talking about is normal network experience which means getting your hands wet on live production network. The feeling of pressure from your employer if you messed up something, dealing with customers, dealing with deadlines, dealing with politics and etc.

Im not talking about the whole CCIE blueprint experience. Also, I dont expect a CCIE to be a guru based on the blueprint. There is no such thing as a network engineer who designs, deploys, and verifies RIP, OSPF, EIGRP, BGP, spanning-tree, MPLS, Multicast, Frame-Relay, QOS and other ip services on a daily basis.

Mrock4

There's a LOT of "non-CCIE" stuff to be learned in production. For example, you're a R&S god, you can configure anything someone throws at you (that is on the R&S blueprint), but someone asks you to configure a new user account in ACS. But you have never used ACS.......

Or..you're a R&S guy, asked to stand-up an ACS server. Technically outside of a R&S CCIE's duties, but anyone with 5-10 years in networking would be able to do this. With no experience, however, you tell the employer who paid $120k+ to hire you, that they need someone else who knows how to work with ACS. Or you figure it out..eventually.

Or...you're hired and asked to evaluate the network performance and recommend changes. How do you perform analysis and determine what is suboptimal, when you've never seen actual production experience? The lab is one thing, but real world is not 1ms pings device to device..

Or..your employer asks you to conduct an upgrade on devices. You've only used rack rentals and never touched real gear in production. Your first real upgrade is on a production network in a high availability environment..not a good time for a "first"..especially when you're expected to be the expert.

Then, as NOC-Ninja stated, there's the "soft" skills..dealing with people, deadlines, diagramming networks, creating Statements-Of-Work, etc..

Fair or not, being a CCIE assumes *some* knowledge and experience for items both on the blueprint, and off.

xbuzz

Mrock4 wrote: »

Fair or not, being a CCIE assumes *some* knowledge and experience for items both on the blueprint, and off.

That's the point i'm trying to make. Alot of people in the industry "assume" that CCIE equates to knowledge and experience outside the barriers of the CCIE certification course, but they're wrong. CCIE is just a certification, it doesn't test any "soft" skills, it just tests what is on the curriculum in a lab environment. Anyone assuming any other skills from someone holding 1 technical certification needs a reality check. Anyone hiring someone with a CCIE certification for 120k a year, when they have no industry experience, should have their sanity seriously questioned.

The way it actually is, in reality, the CCIE is only an educational certification, just like a PhD, both can be gotten these days, without any experience whatsoever, however you don't see other industries complain that PhD holders have no experience, and you don't see businesses hiring PhD holders straight out of college to be CEOs of their companies, which is tantamount to IT companies hiring CCIEs in the expectation that, based on the certification alone, they are gods of networking and have the skills needed, which are only brought on through experience.

As with any industry. Even with the best educational credentials, you're more than likely not going to get anything other than an entry level job, no matter CCIE, PhD, Masters ....whatever. I think some people think that because they will have a CCIE, they are entitled to high level positions, even with little experience. While they may get lucky in getting in with a cisco partner, that's almost never going to be the case, and there seems to be alot of predjudice against these "lab rats" in the industry at the moment, even though they might only be seeking out CCNA level positions, which I think is unjustified. I think if someone has the time and resources to do such a qualification without any experience, then once they get into the industry it would actually be an advantage, and allow them to move up positions faster.

networker050184

The problem with having a CCIE and going for an entry level position is the employer knows what you really want, a high level postion and you are going to jump ship as soon as something better comes a long. No one wants to hire someone they have to replace in six months. Is this fair? Probably not, but the world isn't fair and we are all judeged constantly and especially when trying to find a job.

shodown

I worked for a partner and we hired a CCIE Voice with no real VOIP experience. They parked him in presales and got there gold status without having a engineer who could disrupt a major operation. Its all about being in the right place at the right time.

Eildor

I think I should stop asking questions like this and think for myself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with gaining CCIE knowledge, or even obtaining the CCIE... UNLESS you are marketing yourself as a networking expert, or think that simply having a CCIE means that you can demand a high salary. I'm not someone who would try BSing my way through an interview, I would simply be honest and say that whilst I may hold a CCNP or a CCIE, that in no way makes me a professional or an expert. It does however show that I am able to learn, I am keen on furthering my knowledge, and I am serious about a career in networking. I'm not going for a senior position, because I know that that requires experience.

I guess the point made by networker050184 is valid though, your potential employer could see you have higher goals and that could count against you... I imagine this is more likely to be the case when applying for a job in a smaller organisation which has no higher level networking positions, but in this case they probably wouldn't even know what a CCIE is. It's also worth mentioning that you can simply remove the CCIE from your CV if you think that it could potentially harm you.

I think that the theoretical knowledge I would gain and the time spent labbing CCIE material would be of benefit. I'm not saying that I would necessarily sit the actual CCIE exams, but the process itself would make me better prepared to take on a graduate network engineer type role.

Ryan82

At this stage I would work at building a solid foundation to build upon.

Here are some classic texts that are highly regarded:

Interconnections: Bridges, Routers, Switches, and Internetworking Protocols
TCP/IP Illustrated vol 1 The Protocols
The Illustrated Network: How TCP/IP Works in a Modern Network

Then go through the CCNA material

Then read a book called Network Warrior

Most people try to skip the fundamentals. Do it right the first time.

unclerico

So we had a Skype chat with a very well placed recruiter within Cisco last night and he essentially said a CCIE "must have the experience to match the technologies you work with and you must be able to interview well. Experience always trumps certifications." Do not do a disservice to yourself and stop learning. Learn everything you can because at some point someone will give you the chance you need to go where you want to go.

Eildor

Ryan82 wrote: »

At this stage I would work at building a solid foundation to build upon.

Here are some classic texts that are highly regarded:

Interconnections: Bridges, Routers, Switches, and Internetworking Protocols
TCP/IP Illustrated vol 1 The Protocols
The Illustrated Network: How TCP/IP Works in a Modern Network

Then go through the CCNA material

Then read a book called Network Warrior

Most people try to skip the fundamentals. Do it right the first time.

Thank you for the list of recommended books, I'm definitely planning on reading them all... I do already own them; but haven't read them from cover to cover as of yet. I am a CCNP in R&S, right now I'm just trying to get everything at CCNP level to stick; I find myself forgetting things I've learnt if I don't review them. I think what I need to do is make a plan of going through the material, and doing the labs, so it always stays fresh in my mind. Cramming for exams is one thing, making it stick for any period of time is another