a bit frustrated... no luck in network engineering job search

I got CCNP a few weeks back and started applying for network engineering jobs again, still not much luck..
I graduated this year with BS in Information Systems (honestly it's mostly useless for network engineer...), had an internship while I was in school. I worked on some projects with my lab, that's where I spent most of my spare time during college.

I got an interview from a Cisco partner. The first written evaluation is CCENT level stuff. Then an engineer interviewed me, some basic questions like EIGRP vs OSPF, dhcp relay, traceroute etc. I don't think I missed much on technical part, but the interviewer didn't move on to more in depth discussion... A few days later I got an email from HR telling me they've moved on with other candidates...leaving me totally clueless
I am not a fan of certs, but in my situation I guess it's better than nothing. I much prefer J's SP track to Cisco's R&S track. J's lab is a lot more costly tho....

Out of hundreds of positions I applied, I get 1% of relevant interviews (usually through referral). HR tends to simply disqualify me because I don't meet the experience requirement..Now I started working towards JNCIS-SP, but I am having doubts whether I should stay on network engineering.
After all that I have done, I don't see me much (or any, actually...) closer to where I want to be.... I like network engineering but I don't really see a viable path to get in, especially for a non-US citizen. I am shooting a bit high but I did put in some efforts cuz I know being a non-local (living in rural small town) and requiring sponsorship (in the future) is a big minus for most employers.
On the other hand almost all of my friends in software engineering are doing fairly good and they do get a whole lot more opportunities. Maybe I should focus on getting in a good engineering school for BSCS/BSEE. Even if I want to stay close to networking, there are way more opportunities in software/hardware engineering. I actually wanted EE but my college was very weak on engineering.

Any thoughts? I appreciate your input.

Any suggestion for improvements? Thanks

what I have done with my resume:
1. removed address, a friend told me the address on resume wouldn't do me any good, email/phone is sufficient
2. removed goals, not to restrict what position that I might be considered
3. reorganized skills in a logical way... I made several attempts in the past
4. added my projects on the second page (a full page), then removed them all. Most projects are my home projects (IPv6, DNS, vSphere, PKI, Asterisk, Cacti). I don't feel they actually helped me much, they are not that closely related to the job...
5. removed GPA... my GPA isn't that high. My college career service said always put GPA in the resume but others advised against it if it's not 3.8+ . Most of what I am applying is not new grad jobs (there are very few new grad jobs in networking from what I have seen)

Some interviewer explicitly asked me if I want to go into SP/enterprise/datacenter/voice, some said they want people that know many aspects... I am just not sure having something on my resume is a distraction or not...I tried to get some feedback from the recruiter/interviewers but usually they won't say anything... Some recruiters told me to tailor the resume to the job description but it seems there isn't much I can change other than removing less-relevant skills (like deleting Windows Server, AD for a network/linux position). Is that a good practice?

Edit: I am not confident on the experience part. The internship I did was more about exposing the interns to enterprise IT rather than letting the interns to work on the network (no write access to anything in production, I did build a vsphere cluster lab and racked into the DC..) Although it's not part of the job, I read the docs and went through all the configs I have access to and tried to make sense of why it was setup that way... and tried to recreate the environment in my home lab. Lol a large portion of my paycheck was spent on lab gears.

I am not sure if my own projects meet the bar to be considered as experience (I have multiple BGP peering sessions with private ASNs, 6to4 tunnel, VPN, vSphere on FreeNAS iSCSI, AD authentication, PBX DID/ring group/voice mail, cacti/smokeping monitoring all the services etc.)

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Comments

AwesomeGarrett

Keep trying and keep studying while looking for an opportunity. That being said, has someone taken a second look at your resume? Are you running through interview questions on your spare time? Have you made 100% sure that you have the basics down? Your not going to move on to the higher level technical interviews if you don't have the basics down.

Another thing to consider is, what is your networking experience? The truth is no one has the time to train anybody in this field and no one wants to take the risk of investing into an unproven individual. They will take a chance if you walk into an interview and know your stuff COLD! (Chris Bryant style).

I don't say this to discourage you but to tell you the truth, but if you have a CCNP and you not getting that many calls you might want to take a second look at your resume. I have my resume out there with just a CCNA and I get 1 to 2 call a week, they're mostly for other NOC jobs so they don't pay more than my current NOC job.

realdreams

Thanks I added my resume in OP. My experience is limited to what I can get my hands on. While I know the routing/switching stuff, I do lack experience with telecom circuits, DWDM, other vendors (F5, Brocade etc.)

AwesomeGarrett

Yeah I'm no resume guru but your it looks like it could use some work. Let's hope some of the others jump in and give you some advice as I don't wanna lead you in the wrong direction.

Ismaeljrp

That resume is just a checklist of Acronyms.

A network engineer is expected to have experience, it's not really an entry level role. Based on your experience you haven't spent time in a professional environment as an entry network technician/network support or something of the like. I would probably consider dropping the CCNP from the resume, just place the CCNA, improve your resume and go for a lower lever position. You haven't really earned the credibility to be a network engineer. A CCNP position is a type of position where they need you to produce results right away. And they can tell from your resume especially and probably from the interview as well that you don't have that capability.

NetworkVeteran

It sound like you're frustrating yourself by applying for positions you're unqualified to do. Realize, with no experience and no CS/EE degree, a network engineering position is a stretch. I've hired more qualified people than your resume seems to indicate for basic "hands" roles. Of course, if you work hard, you may graduate from that quickly.

Experience Section

Troubleshoot enterprise network routing, switching, wireless and VoIP issues

The above implies, by virtue of omission, that you did very little in this area. If you want a job with more of an emphasis on networking, you should expand this bullet point, and tell us more about your actual networking responsibilities. It may not be glamorous. I'm almost certain it's not! But anything you can list is better than nothing.

Can you run cables or ID cable types? Have you monitored networks?

Certifications Section

CERTIFICATIONS
CCNP R&S

You should list your CCNA prominently. That's the keyword a recruiter or employer would typically search for, when they're open to someone with little or no experience. Also realize that if your resume makes it to an actual person, and they award 100 point for CCNA, they might award 105 points for CCNP. It's a minor boost at your present level.

Education Section

Bachelor of Science in Business Administration
Majors: Computer Information Systems and Economics

I don't buy that you completed three majors in four years and listed them this way. I'm going to assume your only actual major is "Business Administration" and the rest is fluff, maybe you took one course in those areas. If you have three majors, list each one fully with completion dates. If you have a minor, that's a small plus, so say so.

Skills Section

Keyword ****! While a "Skills" section isn't all bad for entry-level candidates, I'd work whichever of these you have experience with more organically into your resume. I'd also consider shortening the list and putting it below the meat of your resume. Including the keyword "OSPF" is better than not including it, but inferior to having experience with it.

realdreams

Thanks for the info.

It sound like you're frustrating yourself by applying for positions you're unqualified to do. Realize, with no experience and no CS/EE degree, a network engineering position is a stretch. I've hired more qualified people than your resume seems to indicate for basic "hands" roles. Of course, if you work hard, you may graduate from that quickly.

Actually I can't really find any entry level positions into networking... All require at least 2 years of experience.

Experience Section

The above implies, by virtue of omission, that you did very little in this area. If you want a job with more of an emphasis on networking, you should expand this bullet point, and tell us more about your actual networking responsibilities. It may not be glamorous. I'm almost certain it's not! But anything you can list is better than nothing.

Can you run cables or ID cable types? Have you monitored networks?

upgrade IOS, draw diagrams, make documentations, rack servers, run cables... not a lot during the internship

Certifications Section

You should list your CCNA prominently. That's the keyword a recruiter or employer would typically search for, when they're open to someone with little or no experience. Also realize that if your resume makes it to an actual person, and they award 100 point for CCNA, they might award 105 points for CCNP. It's a minor boost at your present level.

I just assumed people know CCNP means CCNP+CCNA

Education Section

I don't buy that you completed three majors in four years and listed them this way. I'm going to assume your only actual major is "Business Administration" and the rest is fluff, maybe you took one course in those areas. If you have three majors, list each one fully with completion dates. If you have a minor, that's a small plus, so say so.

double majors... the degree is called BSBA instead of BS. Lol how did u find 3 majors? The way I listed double majors is not clear enough?

Skills Section

Keyword ****! While a "Skills" section isn't all bad for entry-level candidates, I'd work whichever of these you have experience with more organically into your resume. I'd also consider shortening the list and putting it below the meat of your resume. Including the keyword "OSPF" is better than not including it, but inferior to having experience with it.

So only work experience count as experience? I think I can deploy a network with OSPF.. For stuff that's listed on my resume, I at least have some lab experience on or I am currently using them at home. I feel kinda comfortable in a technical interview to be asked about these... This list has been *a lot* shorter than it used to be. I deleted most stuff that I don't feel ready for an interview. For instance, there is no RIP because I don't really use it...

Can you give me an example what kind of job should I be looking for atm? I really can't find many entry level networking jobs... Thanks.

ptilsen

realdreams wrote: »

Actually I can't really find any entry level positions into networking... All require at least 2 years of experience.

Surely network engineering (read: not entry-level) positions "require" even more. Don't feel intimidated by experience requirements, necessarily. With your education, skills, and certifications, you ought to feel comfortable applying for anything in the 0-3 range, as long as it's entry to low-mid level. You probably aren't getting an "engineer" title, at least not as it's most commonly used, but you'll get something that will help get you the experience you need to network engineering.

realdreams wrote: »

upgrade IOS, draw diagrams, make documentations, rack servers, run cables... not a lot during the internship

It's something. I got my start in IT with a resume that had an A+ and descriptions of what I did with people's home networks and computers. It's all about how you present it. Try to play up what you accomplished, and definitely try to show how you utilized your knowledge. (Don't pad or mislead, however.)

realdreams wrote: »

I just assumed people know CCNP means CCNP+CCNA

People who don't go down the Cisco track often don't. That includes all of HR and most recruiters. It also includes the computer searches and resume parsers, which might be looking for CCNA and certainly don't "know" that CCNA is a subset of CCNP. I am in agreement for prominently displaying your CCNA. On that note, if you are looking at more certs in the immediate future, my advice would be to get maybe CCNA Security or Voice, or even something else entirely (Linux+, MCTS Windows 7 Conf, etc.). With virtually no experience, there is a strong argument that you need some breadth, rather than depth, to get your foot in the door. On that note, I wouldn't restrict myself to network engineering as a specialty, particularly not right away. Plenty of CCNPs or aspiring CCNPs act in generalist roles that require moderate-to-high knowledge of networking. Getting into such roles is not a bad way to get into the more specialized network engineering positions you probably want; it just may be a bit tangential for the start of your career.

realdreams wrote: »

double majors... the degree is called BSBA instead of BS. Lol how did u find 3 majors? The way I listed double majors is not clear enough?

BSBA is very much non-standard nomenclature. Typically, universities award Bachelor of Arts, of Science, and Applied Science degrees. Business Administration is a major, rather than a type of bachelors, at most schools. I don't disbelieve you, however; it's just a bit odd to see BSBA. This is more common at the Master's level (e.g. MBA instead of MS, BA major).

I wouldn't discount the value of your majors, by the way. They should help you understand (or at least add to the perception that you understand) how network design and administration choices impact an organization financially. I would say there are relatively few positions seeking pure technologists, even in this specialty. My resume is almost entirely filled with indications of how I applied technology to meet an organization need, rather than protocol/product/cert alphabet soup. It gets HR/managers interested and still gives colleagues enough to get an idea. You should approach your entire career this way. No one is hiring you to engineer networks for the sake of engineering networks, not even ISPs.

realdreams wrote: »

So only work experience count as experience? I think I can deploy a network with OSPF.. For stuff that's listed on my resume, I at least have some lab experience on or I am currently using them at home. I feel kinda comfortable in a technical interview to be asked about these... This list has been *a lot* shorter than it used to be. I deleted most stuff that I don't feel ready for an interview. For instance, there is no RIP because I don't really use it...

Ultimately, your capabilities are the only thing that matter. Your certs, experience, and education are meaningless on their own. However, these things affect how people perceive what your abilities are. Unfortunately, a figurative piece of paper — even a generally reputable one like CCNP — doesn't necessarily add enough to the perception that you have the skill required to do a given job function. Having that skill reflected in your experience, generally speaking, does far more to add to that perception. If you really do have the skill needed for a given job, you will likely be able to somehow prove it in the interview. The trick is getting the interview in the first place. Realistically, being a CCNP with little experience, you are likely to get few interviews for your actual skill level, and may have to start at something closer to the CCNA level.

realdreams wrote: »

Can you give me an example what kind of job should I be looking for atm? I really can't find many entry level networking jobs... Thanks.

You might look for network technician, network admin, or NOC positions. You might even look for helpdesk, desktop support, or systems administration. The actual titles and job duties can vary a lot, and anything IT is at least a little helpful. Almost anything with networking in the title will be a decent start, even if it means you primarily cable or act as dumb hands. I know that probably doesn't sound like fun when you worked so hard to get your CCNP, but at least consider such positions. Any experience is better than no experience. Definitely keep applying for broader tech/admin jobs, however.

For what it's worth, I personally would give you a shot at a level 1.5/2.0 network/systems generalist or network-focused position, even though you don't have the professional experience I'd want to see. I would grill the hell out of you during the interview and preferably have a CCNP available to do the same, but the point is I would give you the interview and you'd have a real shot. However, the interview gatekeepers are predominately recruiters or HR people looking to fill figurative or even literal checkboxes, which almost invariably include hard experience requirements. Worse, those checkboxes are rarely delineated by technologists at all (as they should be), and even when they are, it's not often technologists who really have a good idea how to hire or what to look for in candidates even for their own field. It's a crappy situation, but there's nothing you can do but be the best candidate with the best resume possible

ptilsen

realdreams wrote: »

1. removed address, a friend told me the address on resume wouldn't do me any good, email/phone is sufficient
2. removed goals, not to restrict what position that I might be considered
3. reorganized skills in a logical way... I made several attempts in the past
4. added my projects on the second page (a full page), then removed them all. Most projects are my home projects (IPv6, DNS, vSphere, PKI, Asterisk, Cacti). I don't feel they actually helped me much, they are not that closely related to the job...
5. removed GPA... my GPA isn't that high. My college career service said always put GPA in the resume but others advised against it if it's not 3.8+ . Most of what I am applying is not new grad jobs (there are very few new grad jobs in networking from what I have seen)

1. Agreed. An address is a tremendous waste of real estate and the reader's time. Where you live is not pertinent unless you're seeking relocation, and that will come up in phone screening.
2. Goals or objectives are silly unless phrased correctly. I like to see a summary describing the candidate. I actually took this from the consensus of some of the more successful members of this site a couple years ago, and it's helped drive my own success.
3. I'm actually opposed to skills lists. However, given your limited experience, there isn't much else you can do.
4. As with above, these are potentially worth listing since you haven't much else to list. That being said, you absolutely must keep this to one page at this stage of your career, and given your inexperience, I would recommend extra concision and lots of white space. You should be seeking entry/low-mid-level positions, and that means you oughtn't oversell what you've done. Impress, but do so selectively. For example, you list PKI. I've passed two certifications with heavy PKI components and implemented/migrated PKI for multiple production environments. I'm not comfortable enough with it to list it on my resume in any form, or at least I have greater strength in so many other areas that I list them instead. You had better be ready to answer questions and demonstrate competence on anything you list.
5. I would list it if it's 3.5+, maybe even less. Even that's arbitrary, but 3.8 is pretty darn high. You're trying to get your first IT job, not applying to a doctoral program at a division 1 school. A solid GPA helps. Admittedly, many employers will not care much, if at all, about your GPA, but it won't hurt you, in my opinion. On the other hand, if it's below 3.0, I would not list it and hope the subject doesn't come up in conversation.

NetworkVeteran

ptilsen wrote: »

5. I would list it if it's 3.5+, maybe even less... below 3.0, I would not list it and hope the subject doesn't come up in conversation.

+1 pstilsen's answers to items 1-4.

Also agreed, Unless you went to a top-ten school, I would almost always list an above-average (3.0+) GPA. If I were weighing two resumes, one with a 3.35 GPA and another whose was too low to list, I know which one I would pick!

Danielm7

RE: the schools, is there a reason to list the 1 summer session you took from another school that didn't produce a degree?

emerald_octane

Honestly, there is just alot wrong with this resume. I'd start by removing alot from the skills section and filling in some of your relevant coursework. 4 months of experience? What jobs are you applying for? No one will take a CCNP without experience for CCNP level jobs.

NetworkVeteran

Danielm7 wrote: »

RE: the schools, is there a reason to list the 1 summer session you took from another school that didn't produce a degree?

It depends. The best case for such a one-off would be a course you passed, directly related to your job, and taken at a notable school. The worst case would be a random class or one you failed, taken at an unknown school.

treehouse

For what it's worth, listening to ptilsen, NetworkVeteran, and others here can only help you get hits on your resume. This subforum ran mine into the ground when I posted it here a month ago, I took all of their advice, and now I pretty much always have something in the pipe.

astrogeek

Do you have any work experience? From your resume it looks like your internship is all the work experience you have, which is not what a hiring manager wants to see. At the very least you want your resume to show that you will be a stable employee so any past work experience would be good to add. I wouldn't work on any more certifications for now, instead put that effort towards getting a job. Experience is what you need most so that should be your main priority. I wouldn't let that gap between the end of your internship and another job get too large, it will just get more and more difficult to explain in an interview later on.

As far as counting home experience as experience, I wouldn't do that. Those kinds of things are good to talk about during an interview, but on a resume it might come off as dishonesty.

Don't get too down on the job search, persistence is key. I was about to give up on my job search until I got a call the other day for a job I applied to months ago.

Jackace

I was in your same position 4+ years back. In my area there isn't a lot of demand for Network Engineering types so the employers can be VERY picky. I had 1 year of general networking experience (running cables, racking stacking, pasting basic configs, etc) and a BS but that wasn't good enough. What I had to do was go back to a NOC/help desk role for 2 years and work there taking on projects as they became available. Then I finally found a position that would give me the experience I needed. All together it took me 3.5 years from the time I graduated and 2 different jobs to make it to a full time networking position. There is demand for networking people, but the demand is for experienced networking people not people new out of college. The problem is getting that first job to get the experience can take a lot of time and effort.

realdreams

Thanks guys for the advice. I will work on my resume and give it some more shots...

zeroth

Listing your address may be wasted space but it's not always irrelevant. On several interviews I've been asked what my commute would be like, as the hiring managers/HR people want a candidate that won't get burned out on an hour+ commute both ways and will be able to quickly make it to the office in the event of an emergency or on-call incident.

kohr-ah

Keep your chin up.

I haven't had a lot of luck either and had a recruiter call me Monday to have me interview for a full time position downtown Chicago right by the train station. I am excited for my interview but just saying keep your head up and move forward something will work out in your favor.

neo9006

Like Kohr said keep your head up. It will take time, I am prepared for the long haul myself when I get done in Dec. I just need a crack to get into somewhere then let the work and learning ethic take over.

kohr-ah

Yup! I have applied all over the place it took me 2 months to start getting call backs.

NetworkingStudent

It’s probably been said before, but do you have any work experience beyond the internship? I just see your internship listed as your only work experience. There are a lot of companies and recruiters as well that look for customer service experience.
Here are my questions for you:
1. Do you currently work in IT?
2. If you don’t work in IT, would you be willing to take a Help Desk job or a NOC tech job?
3. Do you have any work experience beyond the internship?
4. Why are there so many skills listed? I think 3 or 4 key skills would be enough.

it_consultant

To the OP, if you can share, what were your answers to the questions they asked you in the interview? If you got that far then your bad resume is not the issue. You might need to work on your Q&A so you don't sound like a Cisco indoctrinated n00b.

instant000

1. How did you join NANOG in 2014? (My calendar still says 2013.)
2. If that is a Double-Major, and not a Double-Minor, you need to state it more appropriately. As it is now, it looks like you mis-named your minors and called them a major.
3. Talk more about the network stuff you did during your internship.
4. As previously mentioned, recruiters won't know that CCNA is a prerequisite to CCNP. Therefore, you should list it.
5. Since that one job is all you have, say more of what you did there
6. Since your certs are important, put them next to your name: John Doe, Junior Network Analyst, CCNA, CCNP
7. Too many skills, stick a few at the bottom of your resume.
8. Add a "summary paragraph, where you tell more about what you bring to the table and what type of work you're interested in"
9. The UC-Berkley would make more sense if you told us what courses you took there.
10. Your dates are not consistent. one has Month - Month Year, where the others have Month Year - Month Year, and one has Year - Present. In some, you abbreviate August. In others, you do not abbreviate August. They should all be Month Year (Note: Numerical Months are easier for automated systems to read.)

Hope this helps.

realdreams

NetworkingStudent wrote: »

It’s probably been said before, but do you have any work experience beyond the internship? I just see your internship listed as your only work experience. There are a lot of companies and recruiters as well that look for customer service experience.
Here are my questions for you:

1. Do you currently work in IT?

Just graduated

2. If you don’t work in IT, would you be willing to take a Help Desk job or a NOC tech job?

Help desk? no. NOC, totally

3. Do you have any work experience beyond the internship?

Unrelated work

4. Why are there so many skills listed? I think 3 or 4 key skills would be enough.

Not all of them are closely related to one job, but I doubt if 3-4 is sufficient for any technical job.. I might take some out depending on the job description

Thanks

realdreams

1. How did you join NANOG in 2014? (My calendar still says 2013.)

fictional date

2. If that is a Double-Major, and not a Double-Minor, you need to state it more appropriately. As it is now, it looks like you mis-named your minors and called them a major.

Most recruiters did exactly what u said. I just modified it to be more clear.

3. Talk more about the network stuff you did during your internship.

The internship was more about "expose you to technologies". I don't have that much to talk about..

6. Since your certs are important, put them next to your name: John Doe, Junior Network Analyst, CCNA, CCNP

IMO it makes me sound like all I have/care about is certs... a cert is not a earned title

7. Too many skills, stick a few at the bottom of your resume.

What else can I put to fill space?

8. Add a "summary paragraph, where you tell more about what you bring to the table and what type of work you're interested in"

It works better for hiring manager but not really for HRs who matches it word by word.

9. The UC-Berkley would make more sense if you told us what courses you took there.

Good point. just one class. When the recruiter asked (happened only once), I got the "really" expression.

10. Your dates are not consistent. one has Month - Month Year, where the others have Month Year - Month Year, and one has Year - Present. In some, you abbreviate August. In others, you do not abbreviate August. They should all be Month Year (Note: Numerical Months are easier for automated systems to read.)

Nice catch. I forgot about that during revisions

Thanks for the suggestions.

realdreams

it_consultant wrote: »

To the OP, if you can share, what were your answers to the questions they asked you in the interview? If you got that far then your bad resume is not the issue. You might need to work on your Q&A so you don't sound like a Cisco indoctrinated n00b.

Depends on who's looking at a resume. If the resume goes directly to the hiring manager it's more likely for me to get a technical interview which may go into some in-depth discussion. Lack of knowledge & experience in MPLS and optical networking really hurts.

I have Cisco certs but I think I have gone far beyond what Cisco education thinks to be useful (which is quite outdated IMO). But still when the interviewers write RFCs/IEEE standards, I am a n00b regardless....