"Take it or leave it" No Negotiation. Standard now?

Thacker

After 8 weeks of interviewing and back and forth, I was formally offered a job over email Monday night. The initial offer was about 12-15% under market value for this position (IT Systems Administrator w/ virtualization skills) for the area. They offered 58k. I put together a counter offer of 65k and sent it over fully expecting to accept 60-63k. Two days later I was contacted by HR who told me their initial offer was the best they could do. They basically told me to take it or leave it and that there was no room for negotiation. She stated she was aware they paid less than market but their benefits more than made up the difference. I asked for two additional days for consideration and and this was declined. The HR lady was adamant about a decision right then, and I told her I wouldn't be able to accept for that salary. Shortly after I sent an email back informing them I was still interested and I would accept the job as is, and I was rejected and told they had moved onto other candidates.

I went through two, hour long phone interviews and an almost two hour inperson interview over the span of 8 weeks with this company. They offered me the exact same thing I was making previously (I told them this up front) despite this job being an extra 30 minutes away and myself obtaining multiple new certs since the last job. I know I was an excellent candidate for this position based on the feedback and vibe that I got at each step of the interview process yet the fact that they wouldn't even work with me about a 2-3k increase in salary is very disappointing. I've operated under the assumption that all offers are negotiable... and when I got the initial offer I figured it was low due to that reason and they expected some sort of response.

How common is this now? The IT industry seems stronger than ever so I can't imagine this will be the norm moving forward.

srabiee

Are you currently employed? If you're unemployed, I would imagine that's the reason why they decided to stand firm and play hardball like they did. It can be difficult to negotiate when you don't have the leverage of being gainfully employed.

If you are currently gainfully employed, then I'm a little surprised by their inflexibility based on their acknowledgement of a low-ball offer. Especially if you told them that you are already making as much or more at your current job than what they are offering.

Meh, just dust it off and move on. Hopefully you will land some interviews soon where they won't try to low-ball you like that.

Thacker

I am not employed, but at the same time a company that is willing to fight so hard over 2k, doesn't seem like a place I guess I wanted to work anyway looking forward.

Mr. Meeseeks

They probably have strict pay guidelines. Could be a sign of previous financial issues. Did you dig into the company's history?

I attempted to negotiate with my current employer. Could not get them to budge even a little. Even with other perks. But they did offer a salary that was on par with my job description so I couldn't complain. Plus it was a pay bump with more PTO. And going from a JOAT role to something more specialized was nice.

I think there are a few factors that could possibly keep them from allowing a pay range. I wouldn't take it personal

Thacker

This is true. If they had made this more clear and been more transparent about the situation I might have understood instead it seemed more like "we simply don't value you anymore and you should be happy we've even extended an offer"

It was extremely unprofessional how the entire situation was even presented to me. When they intially offered the job via email it came from jobvite.com and went to my spam folder, and the title of the position was wrong.

Bokeh

Ive had this happen once as well. Three interviews with HR, 2 with IT staff. Two weeks later offer comes in, and it was less than what was advertised originally. I countered with what the original posting mentioned, and I got a scathing email from HR on how dare I try to "extort" more money from the company than they offered. Yes, those were her words. I called her and asked her to explain, and she said that finance decided that the position could not pay that much, the IT manager had been mistaken, etc. Needless to say, I declined. Position went vacant for over a year.

srabiee

Bokeh wrote: »

I countered with what the original posting mentioned, and I got a scathing email from HR on how dare I try to "extort" more money from the company than they offered.

Wow! I'd be livid.

Thacker

@Bokeh

That's terrible. In my situation, since I did let it slip that I was making high 50's before, I figured it would be a given that they would try to increase this especially after the process kept continuing to more interviews. They were aware this would be a commute hike for me and that I had obtained multiple certs inbetween the last job and this one. As I said before, the most humiliating part of it was being told take it or leave it and that they wouldn't budge 2-3k more to get me on as a team member.

NinjaBoy

Unfortunately while the market has picked up, it's still an employer's market - it just shows as they've already moved on to the next candidate. The other thing is, is that while you were asking for an extra $7k (regardless of what you were willing to accept), it would cost the company more than that with any contributions that they make (depending on the benefits that they offer, eg pension/401k, training, healthplans, insurance, etc).

I feel for you, the best thing to do is to dust yourself off and carry on applying for other jobs.

From an employers point of view <sorry, playing devils advocate here>...

You state that it was an extra 30 mins away and you've gain multiple certs, unfortunately the extra time to get to work isn't a concern of the employer, it the responsibility of the employee to get to work on time. After all you've applied for the job, you weren't head hunted. You also say that you have gained additional certs, are they relevant to the post? Lots of people with all different certs have applied at our place, but half the certs (sometime all the certs) that they come with aren't relevant.

<End of playing Devils Advocate>

Is it common? For some yes, for other no.... It really does depend on the organisations themselves...

Thacker

The organization has very mixed reviews on glassdoor. Most of the negatives center around mismanagement and the fact that wages are stagnant. Some people report going 5+ years without a cost of living increase. This was one of the reasons I was adamant about increasing my starting salary as if this did turn into a long term thing I wanted it to be as beneficial financially as it could be.

It just seems like I could have gotten a phone call regarding the offer, to finalize the salary number before it ever showed up in my email. I was under the impression that counter offers were expected, and welcome... but the reception I got from this company was a big "f you, we don't need you anymore than the number we offered". I got a very disorganized vibe the entire process... with it sometimes going 2+ weeks between interview stages.

NinjaBoy

Sounds like you dodged a bullet there

Thacker

Unfortunate. I really needed the income.. but I wasn't really willing to accept less just to have to search again in a few months.

22306

am i the only one who wouldnt tell a company how much i make.

Thacker

I normally prescribe to this mentality.. I am not sure why I let it slip during our first conversation.

Danielm7

Thacker wrote: »

Unfortunate. I really needed the income.. but I wasn't really willing to accept less just to have to search again in a few months.

Depends on the company, some of them you can dance around it in an interview, or tell them what your range is, but for a lot of the applications I've seen lately your current salary is a required field on the application. Most companies can't/won't verify your current income either so if you're being grossly underpaid I've heard a lot of people just say they give their current salary in the range that they want to make, not actually what they make.

As for that company unable to budge, some places have pay bands or ranges, like 45-58, they may have offered you the top of the band and going beyond that would have been a lot of trouble or making up a new title. I had a situation similar to that awhile back, the recruiter painted this place as the perfect work environment, it was really close to my house, we met, then when the top of their offer was what I was currently making but I was willing to do that to get into a better company, they pulled out saying they didn't want to start someone at the top of their range... well then why offer it as an option?

tpatt100

Yeah they might have had pay categories/limits. Even in today's market it's not very wise to try and low ball unemployed people unless the mentality of the company is that IT people come and go regularly so no use investing for the long term.

I was out of work when I was offered my current job after an interview. When HR called me to ask what I wanted for salary I said the range I was used to getting and she just said "how much for you to stay, we don't want to offer you something that is good enough for now". So I got what I usually made for a new position they created that I didn't have a ton of experience in so win/win situation there.

Thacker

I got some feedback this morning from another one of the hiring managers and this is what they informed me. They told me that 58k was as high as the budget allowed.

If I had been told this by HR my demeanor would have been different towards this negotiation. I could have looked for some other perk, vacation time etc. Instead the negotiation felt hostile in nature as if they simply didn't want to offer me anymore money because they felt like I wasn't worth it instead of communicating they were impressed and offering me the top of their range already.

Chitownjedi

Honestly bro, you would have been selling yourself short. Our minds can be quite easy to justify whatever it is we want it to in order to fit our narrative... however we were hiring folks straight out of school with 0 Experience at 52,000$ base pay in a previous position... you should definitely be looking at around $65,000 if it's full-time.

I would suggest contracting if you just need to start doing something to get money rolling in and leave yourself flexible. Accepting less than you are worth can lead to tons of issues down the road.... and I know it can make you feel selfish prolonging a search if you need $$$ to help out around the house when what they offer may be a lot more than most people would consider a nice wage anyway... but you have a specialized skill set, and that place sounds like a place that would have stifled you and capped you out regardless.... Good luck, keep at it.

P.S This is why a lot of people and myself think that letting them know your salary range as soon as possible is a must. Before I even phoned interviewed for the position I just got.. I told them my salary range, and they said (it fits right into their budget.) Made everything a lot more easy.... once it came down to the salary we pretty much ended directly in the middle of the range, which is what I was expecting anyway... and it was clean cut and dry.

daviddws

Eight weeks back and forth for a position? It sounds like they were stringing you along so they could have you invested in taking less. Its called taking advantage of the unfortunate. I guess It depends on how desperate you are to work.

Thacker

@=Chitownjedi

I have a unique history that I feel causes me issues.

I played poker professionally, both online and live for 3 years. I was successful at this but when online poker went away in 2011 so did most of my income. I also had a misdemeanor from my youth at 18 that cost me a few high level professional positions. I had no idea that a misdemeanor would prevent employment but it cost me a great deal in my early 20's. I am 27 now but I feel both of these things combined hold me back professionally even if my skillset and knowledge / ability is right on par for where it should be. This is why I've always been able to accept less than adequate pay. My job last year consisted of 50+ hour weeks at high 50sk. It was misclassified as exempt so I should have been getting overtime the entire time... but that's a whole nother issue.

@daviddws

This. It was the longest hiring process I've been through. I almost feel as if they offered the position to someone the week before me and they were rejected there as well. I would go 2+ weeks without hearing anything and all the sudden I would get an email requesting another interview.

ande0255

I don't mean to derail the topic, but am I the only one who reads Chitownjedi's posts in the voice of Samuel L Jackson? I was reading through all the replies, and realized that when I was reading his post, it was Samuel L Jackson talking in my head.

Sorry to hear about the job, I have seen job postings sit open for 12+ months because they are asking for 80-100k worth of experience, but the pay grade is only on a 60k'ish range. On the flip side, they will not consider people with less experience than the 80-100k range, so the job posting collects dust, this type of mentality is a good indicator you probably want to stay away from the company.

Thacker

Once again I do agree, but when these are the only places I am scoring interviews with, it's obviously depressing.

RomBUS

Thacker wrote: »

I normally prescribe to this mentality.. I am not sure why I let it slip during our first conversation.

Curious, what do you guys say when a potential employer asks how much were you making before or currently? I've always wondered how I would respectfully change my words to not reveal a number

ande0255

Like someone else mentioned, I'd just make up a higher number in the range you are looking for if they really press the issue, as they can't actually verify your salary through your company.

JoJoCal19

ande0255 wrote: »

Like someone else mentioned, I'd just make up a higher number in the range you are looking for if they really press the issue, as they can't actually verify your salary through your company.

While companies can't ask your previous employer what your salary was directly, they can use something called "The Work Number" which is how a lot of companies verify your employment history. It's like a credit report but instead it has a history of employment as well as salaries listed (at least mine did). What I usually do is answer with compensation instead of salary. I will say my total comp is XXXXXX (base, plus bonus, plus health and other perks). If they try to ask what that compensation entails and want to know what salary minus benefits is, I just take my base and add $10-$15k to it and say I get paid salary plus a guaranteed bonus, because I do get bonus (even though it varies in the exact amount). I do explicitly state that I want to be paid based on skills and market rate and I will not take a salary based on what I make now. I tend to stay away from companies that practice that.

Nemowolf

RomBUS wrote: »

Curious, what do you guys say when a potential employer asks how much were you making before or currently? I've always wondered how I would respectfully change my words to not reveal a number

ande0255 wrote: »

Like someone else mentioned, I'd just make up a higher number in the range you are looking for if they really press the issue, as they can't actually verify your salary through your company.

Lying to a potential employer is going to get you into trouble. Salary CAN be verified as that is one of the allowed questions depending on your state's law, in california that is something they can ask and expect to get an answer on from your previous employer. I was asked to provide a copy of my pay stub minus personal data as an employment verification prior to my interview as I specifically requested my current employer not be contacted.

The better thing to do is politely side step the money question and get them back on track with setting expectations for the role.

"It's not your job to name the salary. Let them name it first," says Sethi. "You can say, 'You know what, I'm sure that we can find a number that works for both of us. I'm very interested in the position. I would love to know how I can contribute to the organization.' Let them make the first move. So when you do, you will find that they will make you an offer and you will come back at them. You'll have your homework, you'll have a number in your head. But when you make the first offer -- I've seen this happen many, many times -- people chronically short themselves."

[Reference: MarketPlace]

While many of us have successfully interview for positions, we can only provide circumstantial opinions. None of us were in the interview to see what was said and done, so no harm done yet. The key is to do your leg work prior to the position and leverage the vast amount of information available to someone who actually looks for it.

In this situation, it sounds like they low-balled the offer because they had several people all looking to get the position. While you may have been exactly the person they needed skill set and technology wise, the budget did not allow so no harm on their end but time lost interviewing someone to find out they decline. This gives them better ground to negotiate with the lesser candidates who may be willing to work with them on the numbers. Personally, I always ask about benefits so I can get a handle on what a standard package is for employees and use that as my next go to item instead of increasing the amount of money on the table. In california, and perhaps other states as I have not worked outside of here, Vacation is paid on your leaving the company. If you get it in writing as part of your offer letter that you have say three weeks vacation, you have a small bonus to be paid out should the job not pan out for you.

traceyke

ande0255 wrote: »

I don't mean to derail the topic, but am I the only one who reads Chitownjedi's posts in the voice of Samuel L Jackson? I was reading through all the replies, and realized that when I was reading his post, it was Samuel L Jackson talking in my head.
QUOTE]



Dude, I've been doing the exact same thing as well! LOL

ande0255

I actually always did that same thing as JoJoCal and rolled my annual bonus in there as well, I never really overshot it too much that I recall, but if you are looking for a certain range I probably would fluff my current wage to try to get to a bracket I feel is fair for the job. I've felt that companies job offers are more based on your current pay that you share with them, rather then the market value for your skills, which I think is a pretty obnoxious way of doing business.

I guess it just depends on the individual if taking that risk is worth the possible reward, I've never had an employer ask to verify my pay, but I've never thrown out an unrealistic number for my experience and expected wages.

traceyke wrote: »

Dude, I've been doing the exact same thing as well! LOL

I knew I couldn't be the only one doing this

Chitownjedi

ande0255 wrote: »

I knew I couldn't be the only one doing this

“Everybody knows, when you make an assumption, you make an ass out of you and umption”

-The Long Kiss Goodnight


Samuel is my guy! lol

Jon_Cisco

Thacker wrote: »

I have a unique history that I feel causes me issues.

Once you grab a position for a year or two this should go away. You have plenty of working years to overcome it.

Keep at it and GL with the next company.

AverageJoe

Thacker wrote: »

How common is this now? The IT industry seems stronger than ever so I can't imagine this will be the norm moving forward.

From what I've seen, it's very common. I disagree that the IT industry is stronger than ever. There are loads of IT folks out of work or accepting salaries significantly lower than their previous salaries. Schools -- high schools -- are churning out certified techs so the competition for entry level positions is very tough. The military has been cutting like crazy, putting loads of qualified, certified, experienced techs into the job market.

To have the upper hand in a negotiation with a possible employer today you really have to bring something special to the table. Otherwise, it's you and 3 to 12 identical resumes and the company knows one of you will take the salary being offered. Maybe they really like you or you have that something special they need, but if you try to negotiate you have to realize that's a risk. And if you flat out say "no" as you did, then you have to expect the game to be over.

Sometimes it works out better, but today's job market is not (in my opinion) the right market to quibble over 15% if you want the job. Better to take it (if it's a job you want) and show you're worth more when it comes time for bonuses, raises, or promotions. And if it's not a job you want, well then we shouldn't even be talking about it <smile>.

Just an average Joe's opinion.

I just logged on to LinkedIn and one of the headlines is: Microsoft lays off 18,000 with ridiculous letter. Not a good job market for IT...