80 hours in 8 days legal questions

techfiend

So I was pursued by a recruiter to work 8 days for 10 hours at a NOC that paid no overtime on an hourly wage. After some research, some states have legalized this by stating no more than 80 hours in 2 weeks. However in this state it is illegal http://www.dli.mn.gov/ls/Pdf/overtime.pdf and http://www.lawhelpmn.org/files/1765CC5E-1EC9-4FC4-65EC-957272D8A04E/attachments/80049045-ED5C-402C-B19F-0AC9E78117B0/e-05-overtime-rules.pdf Should I report it and if so, to who?

It wasn't until a month or so ago that I started seeing these long weeks in the networking and was thinking if they are reported would it stop companies from doing it?

I have no intentions on going court or making money from this, it's all for the employees.

5502george

80 hours in 8 days..sounds painful!

Codyy

Wouldn't worry with it unless you currently worked there and they told you that you had to pull those hours "or else". That may be a perfect fit for someone out there needing work. Just move on IMO.

techfiend

The job would be a perfect fit for me except for the hours but I know I'm setting myself up for failure and I wouldn't be very effective by the eighth day.

I may look for a way to contact the state anonymously.

Codyy

techfiend wrote: »

The job would be a perfect fit for me except for the hours but I know I'm setting myself up for failure and I wouldn't be very effective by the eighth day.

I may look for a way to contact the state anonymously.

I just have to ask, why? Like I hinted at before, some out-of-work IT professional may NEED a position like this. I see no point in reporting this even if it is illegal, anyone who takes this position knows the terms, nobody is being forced* to work illegal hours.

You're not interested, so it doesn't concern you anymore, just say no thanks and move on man. Not to be rude, but I see people illegally cross cross-walks when it's not their turn all of the time, but I don't anonymously report them to the police.

techfiend

Job listing has already been pulled, maybe someone reported them or they had a big enough pool. I know they weren't expecting to hire for a few more weeks, at least they told me a 2 week availability was fine. I think they knew a lot of people wouldn't be able to work these hours because during the phone interview the hours were one of the last things mentioned.

I found a CBA for the state university here that states 80 in a 2 week period is allowed. Article 4a of http://www.seiuhealthcaremn.org/files/2012/11/FV-Riverside-2012-2015-contract.pdf so it must be legal in some capacity. Do unions have exemptions from state laws? EDIT: Yes, they do.

It's kind of ironic a union has this law, they used to be known for protecting employees.

techfiend

Codyy wrote: »

I just have to ask, why? Like I hinted at before, some out-of-work IT professional may NEED a position like this. I see no point in reporting this even if it is illegal, anyone who takes this position knows the terms, nobody is being forced* to work illegal hours.

You're not interested, so it doesn't concern you anymore, just say no thanks and move on man. Not to be rude, but I see people illegally cross cross-walks when it's not their turn all of the time, but I don't anonymously report them to the police.

I understand your point and it's only the first time I've seen this and have desisted. This is a fortune500 company with 1000's of employees in the local area that could easily entice other businesses to do the same thing. I see the company's positions list more conventional hours so it's not a company wide thing which is good. This position was a 6 month contract with the potential to hire, level 2 of the position has more reasonable hours. Oh well, they gave me a few days to think about it and I'll decline it tomorrow.

I realize reporting them wouldn't have changed the hours immediately for the position but it would be nice to not see these (il?)legal hours anymore.

I know no one was being forced to work them as they knew beforehand but what if they were pushing people to work more hours without overtime after being hired?

Would you consider reporting that and risk losing your job or let everyone else suffer the same thing?

Reporting it beforehand would prevent this situation from coming up.

This company's reviews on glassdoor has a ton of complaints about working long hours with no life/balance.

Danielm7

Was it 8x 10 hour shifts over 2 weeks? That would just be 40 hour work weeks.

selenityhyperion

This is how they get around that -

A workweek must be established. Say it is from 7am Monday - 6:59am Monday. The way around that is to have the first 40 hours on one workweek and the other 40 hours on the next workweek. That is what I am doing next week. 13 hours/night Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

The way they consider the workweek makes all the difference.

tprice5

Codyy wrote: »

I just have to ask, why? Like I hinted at before, some out-of-work IT professional may NEED a position like this. I see no point in reporting this even if it is illegal, anyone who takes this position knows the terms, nobody is being forced* to work illegal hours.

You're not interested, so it doesn't concern you anymore, just say no thanks and move on man. Not to be rude, but I see people illegally cross cross-walks when it's not their turn all of the time, but I don't anonymously report them to the police.

Jaywalkers don't have the ability to negatively impact my work life. If we accept these conditions as workers, then it could become the norm and we could be expected to work them.
I really think this attitude comes from the mindset that all employees should be thankful to have a job which I reject. It's a two-way street.
Also, by reporting it, this company's needs do not vanish. It may actually create a second job by forcing the company to hire two workers to legally maintain coverage.

techfiend

Dan: It's 8 on, 6 off.

selenity: I see what you mean, week 1: 3 off, 4 on = 40h, week 2: 4 on, 3 off = 40h. Do you work at a NOC? How easy was it to adjust to the hours? Is there anything unusual that you are able to do to get through the long hours (nap, exercise, etc.)?

bhcs2014

Stop companies from doing what? Advertising jobs that people may want? You'd be doing the opposite of helping prospective employees. You'd be hurting them.

techfiend

Like tprice wrote the company would still require the work and employees would have more reasonable shifts. I'm guessing they would switch to 4x10 then 3 off. I asked the recruiter if swapping 4 days with another employee was possible to get 4x10 but no luck. I don't see how it would create more jobs. Does anyone really want 8x10 hour days? I've never met anyone that's worked long hours like this and enjoyed the hours, including me.

It's a moot point on reporting since it's barely legal.

awitt11

Was it only those 80 hours? It sounds like it could have been a contract 1099 sort of position for a project.

techfiend

6 month contract to hire.

Danielm7

It still sounds like 80 hours in a 2 week period which shouldn't be illegal, not reportable. I wouldn't work that schedule, but someone would probably want to. I know a number of firemen who work multiple 24 hr shifts in a row, sure they are sleeping some of the time, but then they take a week off.

Zartanasaurus

I don't think state law is going to trump the FLSA. A quick google of this shows there's something called the "8 and 80 system" that applies to hospitals and health care facilities. So 80 hours in 2 weeks is covered by this, but they are supposed to pay overtime if you work over 8 hours in one day. So it seems you should be paid overtime regardless.

markulous

Even if it was against state guidelines, in my experience they are only reactive to it.

E.g. I was working for a company a couple of years ago that had training meetings on weekends but they wouldn't pay you for it. I refused to go because I don't get paid and I made plans (they announced it via text message the night before) and my career there went downhill as they started reducing my hours. I called the labor board for that state and filed a grievance. They stated that it was very difficult to prove that my hours were reduced because of that (as there was no documentation of it) and that they would only step in if I went to the meeting and didn't get paid.

AverageJoe

techfiend wrote: »

Does anyone really want 8x10 hour days? I've never met anyone that's worked long hours like this and enjoyed the hours, including me.

To the question of whether anyone really wants to work 8x10 -- sure! 8x10 and then 6 off sounds like a great schedule to me. Military often work 6x12 with 1 off (and far worse) so for a lot of our deployed military members coming back and looking for civilian jobs, yeah, I think a lot would say that 8x10 and 6 off sounds pretty great.

techfiend

State law states medical employees are exempt. It makes sense for medical to be exempt, the few nurses I know have very fluid schedules and at times it's life and death. Fire department are public employees where the state can set their own laws involving overtime but again makes sense they have to be in the firehouse for long hours but they can do almost anything when they are there. The 8/80 law is mostly superfluous when you think about it. Without it a company can still work you 80 hours in 4 days without overtime, then give the next 10 off.

I've done 6x12-14 then 1 off, it was too difficult for me but it sounds easier than 8x10 then 6 off. After the 6 off it's like coming back from vacation which has always taken a few days to adjust for me.

Long hours while stationed in the military is quite a bit different then living in public, at least to some. My dad often worked 14-16 hour days, every day, in the army for 6 years in korea during vietnam. He preferred working to his time off, it made the day go by faster and there wasn't much to do otherwise. I told him about this 8x10 and he doesn't understand how they hire people to do this and he'd never consider it in his lifetime.

AverageJoe

You're quite correct that 8x12 with 6 off is quite different from military service. The question, though, isn't whether it's different from military service, easier than other shifts, or different from the American norm. You suggested no one would want those hours, and I suggest that is not such a given. I seriously love the idea of 6 days off, and I'd consider fairly arduous schedules to attain regular 6-day weekends.

In a free country we can answer these questions by making the job available and seeing if anyone applies. If no one applies the employer makes changes. If people do apply, then for whatever reason, they are interested in working those hours. If a company offered that schedule and I accepted that schedule, why would you want to take that opportunity away from me?

Just my 2 cents.

techfiend

I don't have any intention in taking that opportunity away, as long as it's legal. Since it is legal the only issue I see is that it's getting more popular around here and hope it doesn't turn into a trend. That would take opportunities away from people who want to work conventional hours.

Some large tech companies are going to more flexible schedules where they have to work 30-40 h a week whenever they want because studies show it's more effective work, like airbnb, google, etc. Some, like this one, are going towards unconventional schedules like this for no sensible reason other than to be different. I can understand companies offering this type of schedule for those that want it but making it mandatory is ridiculous. If these hours are persistent with this position for this company I'm guessing there's 10000+ working it currently.

--chris--

This unfortunately appears to be common.

My last job had some real grey areas when it came to paying OT. I worked 11 days in a row, on call and had a few times I was called in/had to work from home at night during that 11 day shift and I received no OT pay. This was working for a large MSP.

It seems if anyone was worried about breaking the law it would have been them (publicly traded).

IIIMaster

Nurses do what 70 in 6, within 2 weeks? Anything over 40 hours a week will go to overtime. They can schedule those 40 hours a week how ever them wish. 80 hours in 8 days in 2 weeks is not bad...that mean you have 6 days off every 2 weeks..3 days off a week?

techfiend

You have to pay attention to what days are on and off days though. 8 straight on then 6 straight off is much different then 4 on, 3 off which would be a great schedule. The only way nurses get OT is if they work more than 80 in 2 week span because it's illegal if they don't. Working 80 in 4 days can be split to look like 2 weeks but I don't think anyone has been pushed this hard and it might be medically dangerous but there's no law to prevent this that I've seen. I've known nurses to work 24 hour shifts, I've worked 2 36 hour shifts but it was almost a year apart and it was all OT, I'd do it again if required.

bermovick

On my last job, there were only 2 night-shift workers, so when the other guy took a vaction, I'd occasionally have to work 9 12's in a row. THAT was tiresome (and salaried, so no OT). After 6 or 7 you really start to burn out.

We also discussed and tried out rather than our usual 3-on/3-off, we did 6-on/6-off. The 6 on was pretty rough at the end, but then you had pretty much an entire week off, so could adjust your sleep schedule to be diurnal for a while, which you couldn't easily do for the usual 3 days off.

selenityhyperion

I work as a respiratory therapist - we share the same hours as nurses. I am working Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday in a row. This does not qualify for OT because our new workweek starts when we clock out (~7:30am) Monday morning. So I work 6pm-7:30am for 6 nights in a row then have off 8 nights. The first day or two is usually spent recovering and I am unable to do anything. I am about to switch to a 3 on 4 off schedule so I can at least have some semblance of a life.


I have worked 12-16 hour shifts at McDonald's, Subway, and Staples... never received OT because it did not put me over the 40hr/workweek. Never heard of the over 8 hours paying OT, either.

markulous

selenityhyperion wrote: »

I have worked 12-16 hour shifts at McDonald's, Subway, and Staples... never received OT because it did not put me over the 40hr/workweek. Never heard of the over 8 hours paying OT, either.

It depends on the state. In California, I would receive OT for anything over 8 hours if my shifts were scheduled for 8 hours.

philz1982

If the pay is right it's not a big deal. I am salaried and some weeks I work 80 hours in 5 days. Employment laws are stupid on both sides of the fence. If the pay is right great if not quit or don't take the job. Now, if they had you working hourly and were paying 40 hours for 80 hours of work that is something entirely different.

tprice5

philz1982 wrote: »

Employment laws are stupid on both sides of the fence. If the pay is right great if not quit or don't take the job.

It may seem innocuous enough for one position to have these types of hours. My issue is the potential for a trend in IT jobs moving to these types of schedules.
Without the laws, I think we would be much more susceptible from abuse from our employers. I welcome any type of legislation that limits their ability to take advantage of us.

philz1982

tprice5 wrote: »

It may seem innocuous enough for one position to have these types of hours. My issue is the potential for a trend in IT jobs moving to these types of schedules.
Without the laws, I think we would be much more susceptible from abuse from our employers. I welcome any type of legislation that limits their ability to take advantage of us.

But thats just it legislation does limit you. Companies wont create or will poorly fund positions due to legislation. I know this first hand because i sit on our staffing calls.