Why so many job ads requiring B.S degree for Net Admins?

Judd

Why do you see so many job ads that state, "the candidate will have a B.S. degree in CS or equivalent..."

You would think that college IT majors would be based somewhat on the demands of industry, however with networking this isn't the case. Even though most people know that the majority of formal networking education comes in the form of an A.S degree, the jobs we should be qualified for routinely have requirements of a B.S. degree.

Most of us answer this requirement with additional certifications during or after college, but for some employers certification doesn't matter.

Why is this so common? Is it because some employers don't fully understand the job duties of a net admin, so they assume it requires a B.S? Is it because of the old skool way of thinking that every job in IT should have a B.S. degree? That was the case long ago for programmers, but many tech colleges offer programmer degrees now.

What are your thoughts on this topic? How have you dealt with this issue?

raross

I agree networking is not that tough of a job, I look at it as a trade rather then a skill set. But now a days everything requires a four year degree or more. So just get the degree . Most employers dont really look at 2 year programs that highly if at all.

TeKniques

Well ... A BS in IT depending on where you take it can be heavily geared towards networking and administration. Besides an employer wanting the degree in the first place, a lot of 4 year degrees prove to an employer that you can finish what you start and work hard toward a goal. On top of that most four year degrees offer a lot of general courses to prepare someone to interact better with co-workers and be a better 'people' person.

Of course, I'm sure a bunch of people will say they know the best workers possible that don't talk to anyone, but it's just my opinion.

JDMurray

After you've conducted enough interviews with "cable pullers" that think they have network admin skills, you'll start putting "BSIT required" in your job reqs just to get a higher quality of applicants.

int80h

The "I dont need no education, I can gets certs" attitude some of you have is the reason you are getting outsourced.

raross

I agree

porengo

int80h wrote:

The "I dont need no education, I can gets certs" attitude some of you have is the reason you are getting outsourced.

Interesting comment from someone who's a member of a forum that's geared towards certifications.

Also, there are plenty of technologists with college degrees who are out of work because of outsourcing. So, the lack of formal education isn't the reason why IT positions are being outsourced. Economics is the main culprit. It costs less to outsource than it does to have someone do it here domestically.

Munck

The short answer? - because they can. As more and more people get a college education, the requirements for a specific job rises. As orthers have mentioned, a college degree is a tremendous achiement. If you have one, it says a lot about your personality. So why not list a B.Sc. when there are people with them available?

About the certs. VS degree discussion: it has been debated, like forever, so I won't get into that here. My 0,02ct: they are both important.

Judd

It ‘s disheartening to new graduates with an A.S.I.T networking degree that although they may be the top graduate with a 4.0, when facing the job market their talent may go unnoticed due to an arguably un-necessary education requirement.

How many colleges/universities offer a 4-year networking program? Very few if any, some people continue with the B.S.I.T but have an A.S. in networking.

The IT directors and management at my company take a different approach. While we do have a couple engineers with 4 year degrees, the majority have specialty 2 year degrees in their respective discipline.

They take the viewpoint that they would rather have an admin or tech with specific knowledge of a system rather then someone who sat through classes like Spanish or world religion...you get the point. They look at a 2-year graduate as someone who has clearly defined goals, someone who can rapidly attain and apply knowledge, and can work under high constraints. Some 2-year IT programs have 18-20 credit-per-semester requirements. That’s definitely an accomplishment to many employers.

My supervisor even joked with me during my interview and called the first 2 years of a university "extended adolescence", and that he appreciates candidates who get right to the guts of a program.

This is of course purely speculation and only their viewpoint. If the majority thought this way there wouldn’t be as many "B.S. degree required" postings for net admins...

raross

Judd wrote:

It ‘s disheartening to new graduates with an A.S.I.T networking degree that although they may be the top graduate with a 4.0, when facing the job market their talent may go unnoticed due to an arguably un-necessary education requirement.

How many colleges/universities offer a 4-year networking program? Very few if any, some people continue with the B.S.I.T but have an A.S. in networking.

The IT directors and management at my company take a different approach. While we do have a couple engineers with 4 year degrees, the majority have specialty 2 year degrees in their respective discipline.

They take the viewpoint that they would rather have an admin or tech with specific knowledge of a system rather then someone who sat through classes like Spanish or world religion...you get the point. They look at a 2-year graduate as someone who has clearly defined goals, someone who can rapidly attain and apply knowledge, and can work under high constraints. Some 2-year IT programs have 18-20 credit-per-semester requirements. That’s definitely an accomplishment to many employers.

My supervisor even joked with me during my interview and called the first 2 years of a university "extended adolescence", and that he appreciates candidates who get right to the guts of a program.

This is of course purely speculation and only their viewpoint. If the majority thought this way there wouldn’t be as many "B.S. degree required" postings for net admins...

You're truly uneducated about four year degrees. First off many uni's or world class schools dive right into it like you're talking about. If not, then you have a year of bullshit classes which help you in the long run anyway. Specially in the united states. College is meant to be three year, like it is in europe, but because of the crappy highschool education, they have added a year on a very long time ago to make up for this.

The reason why you cant get a four year networking degree is like I said, It is not that tough of a job and most employers look at it as a trade rathe r then a large skill set. Think about it, why, or a better question is HOW would they make a four year program out of something so damn simple. Hell, in a CS degree you have a class where you learn basically everything and beyond everything about networking. You learn more in that one ABET accredited class then a networker with a 2 year degree. The one reason you do is because you can understand far more then a networker with a 2 year degree because now you can dive down beyond the networker abstration point and really understand what is going on at the electronic/programming level of understanding.

That is why these people are requiring a CS or equalivent for a networking job or any kind of computer job now a days. Like everyone else said, because they can. The market is already flooded with many qualified people, so why would they take someone with a 2 year degree over someone with a 4 year degree? And the logical answer is they would not.

Another soft spot for 2 year programs is the level of education of the "teachers" is very low compared to the universities. The two year schools I have seen, the teachers also worked at the local highschool. So I think you can generalize and say the level of education coming out of these 2 year community colleges is not very good.

TeKniques

raross wrote:

You're truly uneducated about four year degrees. First off many uni's or world class schools dive right into it like you're talking about. If not, then you have a year of bullshit classes which help you in the long run anyway. Specially in the united states. College is meant to be three year, like it is in europe, but because of the crappy highschool education, they have added a year on a very long time ago to make up for this.

Agreed, the public school system is a joke. The first year of classes of a 4 year college program teach you more than 4 years of pointless high school that focusses more on sex education and politically correct nonsense.

raross wrote:

The reason why you cant get a four year networking degree is like I said, It is not that tough of a job and most employers look at it as a trade rathe r then a large skill set. Think about it, why, or a better question is HOW would they make a four year program out of something so damn simple. Hell, in a CS degree you have a class where you learn basically everything and beyond everything about networking. You learn more in that one ABET accredited class then a networker with a 2 year degree. The one reason you do is because you can understand far more then a networker with a 2 year degree because now you can dive down beyond the networker abstration point and really understand what is going on at the electronic/programming level of understanding.

I don't agree that one class in a CS program teaches you more than a 2 year degree in the field.

raross wrote:

That is why these people are requiring a CS or equalivent for a networking job or any kind of computer job now a days. Like everyone else said, because they can. The market is already flooded with many qualified people, so why would they take someone with a 2 year degree over someone with a 4 year degree? And the logical answer is they would not.

I agree, I wouldn't of gotten my job if I did not have a CS degree. I say this because I did not have the experience required, but the degree made the difference.

raross wrote:

Another soft spot for 2 year programs is the level of education of the "teachers" is very low compared to the universities. The two year schools I have seen, the teachers also worked at the local highschool. So I think you can generalize and say the level of education coming out of these 2 year community colleges is not very good.

Again, I think you are on point here. This is my experience as well, as I have seen and heard horror stories of people attending 2 year trade schools and just not getting a whole lot out of it.

Judd

Wow, didn't know it was such a personal matter for you. Settle down raross, maintain your professionalism.

The matter is objective. If people weren’t qualified with a 2-year diploma for the industry then there wouldn't be the plethora of schools offering the degree. I agree with you, the Cisco IOS is not an object oriented programming language that requires countless hours of study. That's precisely my point; a 2-year program should suffice for a net admin.

I have 11+ years experience in the networking field. I was an RF network technician in the service and I'm now a Net Admin for an insurance company. I have established many professional friends throughout my area, many of which are net admins like me. Out of at least 10 of those, two might have a 4-year degree.

The market might be flooded with unqualified candidates but it's not because of their education credentials. Sure, there are those cable pullers and those packet monkeys who have home routers who think they're net admins, not talking about those people. Talking about people who don't have any real hands on experience troubleshooting networks and exactly how 802.3 really works.

When you are given a scenario at an interview, you're better off using a real world example then trying to remember something from a textbook. That will come though with an employer faster then most people think. That's was separates the qualified from the unqualified. When you look at it from that perspective. The market isn’t really flooded at all.

raross

No, I am saying the market is flooded with qualified people with four year degrees and some of them want these networking jobs for whatever reason. And because of that employers feel they would rather get someone more educated with a four year degree then someone without.

Dasvedas

I did my A+ and N+ a couple of years ago, i am currently doing MCSA.
Is a bachelors degree important to get job?
What is the best course to do after MCSA?
Are there any sites that can help me with MCSA studies, like notes, and mock exams, etc.

raross

Dasvedas wrote:

I did my A+ and N+ a couple of years ago, i am currently doing MCSA.
Is a bachelors degree important to get job?
What is the best course to do after MCSA?
Are there any sites that can help me with MCSA studies, like notes, and mock exams, etc.

I think most people you ask will say a bachelors degree is essential in finding a computer related job.

Cherper

I won't say that you have to have a degree to get a job, but if you don't have the degree, your future opportunities could be limited. The days of working your way up to management from the mailroom are passing by. More and more companies are requiring a degree to move into management.

There will be those that wail about how it isn't fair, and that they know more about this or that than anybody with a degree, but no ever said life was fair. Business sure isn't.

Jiggsaww

am seein that where i work........u can reach thus far on certs........but management requires a degree or probably d highest cert in a limited feel maybe like CCIE or something......

garv221

Judd wrote:

Why do you see so many job ads that state, "the candidate will have a B.S. degree in CS or equivalent..."

The answer is in the quote "or equivalent". What this quote is saying "This job requires a certain skill at a certain level. I'm sure they will not turn down a well experienced person. By listing a BS it filters out under qualified people and asks for people who are at least 22 yrs old.

cairtaker

Get any education that you can, it will last a lifetime.
I love IT, but got my Masters in IT and then Business, then recently started on Certs. Now I am getting calls and responses to my inquries. I was hoping it would show an understanding for 2 areas that most people usually separate in their companies. I was hoping to show that I am versatile. It kind of seems to me that most companies looking for IT want HIGHLY trained people in one specific area to get any kind of decent pay. I guess it goes to show that you still have to be able to market yourself in an excellent way...

best wishes

raross

garv221 wrote:

Judd wrote:

Why do you see so many job ads that state, "the candidate will have a B.S. degree in CS or equivalent..."

The answer is in the quote "or equivalent". What this quote is saying "This job requires a certain skill at a certain level. I'm sure they will not turn down a well experienced person. By listing a BS it filters out under qualified people and asks for people who are at least 22 yrs old.

That is not true at all. Most IT jobs that are worth anything, are going to have a lot of people applying for that particular job. One of the first things employers will look for is your education then experience. Age does not matter, if you dont go to college then you're not going to be able to get a good job when you're 22 anyway (generalizing). So that statement does not make much sense in that context.

keatron

raross wrote:

garv221 wrote:

Judd wrote:

Why do you see so many job ads that state, "the candidate will have a B.S. degree in CS or equivalent..."

The answer is in the quote "or equivalent". What this quote is saying "This job requires a certain skill at a certain level. I'm sure they will not turn down a well experienced person. By listing a BS it filters out under qualified people and asks for people who are at least 22 yrs old.

That is not true at all. Most IT jobs that are worth anything, are going to have a lot of people applying for that particular job. One of the first things employers will look for is your education then experience. Age does not matter, if you dont go to college then you're not going to be able to get a good job when you're 22 anyway (generalizing). So that statement does not make much sense in that context.

I can't say I agree with everything you're saying. First of all I'm an employer, and most of us look for experience and skills first. I've advertised a new position requiring that the applicant have a CISSP and 6 years experience in information security. Whatever degree this person has will probably help in my final decision, but not having one is far from a deal breaker. Your points are well taken, but I think you are really stretching it to making a blanket statement like ..."if you dont go to college then you're not going to be able to get a good job when you're 22 anyway (generalizing)". The fact that you pointed out you were generalizing still doesn't change the fact that you did it. Those of us who are employers and are smart enough to keep HR people in check realize that to throw out every application that doesn't boast a BS degree can be a grave mistake. You say that most IT jobs that are worth anything will have a ton of people applying? I'm looking for another CCIE and a CISSP, how many applications do you think we have in for those positions? Not many. I do have a ton of apps with people writing me nice cover letters explaining how their Master's degree makes them a better candidate than the CCIE or CISSP I'm looking for. Give me a break. All the college degrees in the world will not get you through a CCIE Lab and nor will they get you through the CISSP examination. You also have to understand that there are tons of people out here doing things in the industry that don't have 4 year degrees. If you look around you can see these people everyday. They are the ones creating forums such as these, the ones finding the flaws in Windows OS's, etc etc etc. These are the people that companies go after, they don't have to apply for jobs. Now I myself have two bachelors and a Masters, so I'm definitely not against education, so I do agree with some of your points. But I'd suggest keeping your comments leaning in the direction of helping people better themselves whether it be via certifications or degrees. Try not to be insensitive and tell folks they won't make it in IT if they don't have a BS degree. Because frankly, it's just not true.

Good luck to you and thanks for your passionate posts.

Judd

keatron wrote:

Those of us who are employers and are smart enough to keep HR people in check realize that to throw out every application that doesn't boast a BS degree can be a grave mistake.

Well said, that was the whole basis of starting this thread, to have someone come out and say that ignoring a candidate based on a college degree requirement would be ill advised.

Attention job seekers...Don't be discouraged by a job ad that states BS degree required. You should still apply if you fit the job description. The employer will notice this during the interview.

We have a systems engineer that was just hired with NO college degree or certifications. He was immediately assigned responsibility of two production servers. He applied for a position that requested skills, education, and experience that he doesn't come close to matching. Nevertheless, he does have seven years practical experience in IT with servers and networking, he got the position.

int80h

If you want to get into the leading edge stuff you need a degree. Companies need people to work on new technologies, and since these technologies are new, nobody in the job market has exerience with them.

For instance I work with CAN and LIN networks. How many job seekers out their have experience with either CAN or LIN networks? A very small percentage have worked with technologies that bleeding edge. So what do employeers look for in candidates? A 4 year or higher degree.

My company will be seeing Flexray networks starting to be layed out in the next few years. Right now nobody has experience with Flexray networks because nobody is using Flexray networks. So how do you find the people to work on and design these Flexray networks? A degree.

keatron

int80h wrote:

If you want to get into the leading edge stuff you need a degree. Companies need people to work on new technologies, and since these technologies are new, nobody in the job market has exerience with them.

For instance I work with CAN and LIN networks. How many job seekers out their have experience with either CAN or LIN networks? A very small percentage have worked with technologies that bleeding edge. So what do employeers look for in candidates? A 4 year or higher degree.

My company will be seeing Flexray networks starting to be layed out in the next few years. Right now nobody has experience with Flexray networks because nobody is using Flexray networks. So how do you find the people to work on and design these Flexray networks? A degree.

No, you find people who has worked at companies who has laid out Flexray networks. In other words, if I'm smart, I'd be trying to get people from your company or sub-contract the work out. Or how about this, only do work that my company has established a reputation as experts in doing. It's amazing that you think a degree makes a person have infinite ability to gain experience in anything. Is there a BS in Flexray networks? No. Will there ever be? Probably not. If were looking to hire someone to implement VoIP systems using Cisco equipment, I'd look for someone with experience doing that and preferably a CCVP certification. If I'm looking for someone to roll out a large Windows 2003 Active Directory design I want someone with experience doing that and probably with an MCSE 2003. A college degree is simply a good foundation of usually a very broad range of a given field. If I want a manager then yes this helps, but if I want a specialist (which is certainly what it sounds like you're referring to concerning Flexray) the I want a specialist in that area or at least someone who's got experience implementing networks. I could care less if you have a progamming degree with absolutely no experience with networks. And to the poster who made the comment that the days of working your way up from mail room to manager are over is dead wrong. Ideas like this is why people with college degrees are disgruntled when someone without a college degree is promoted over them because they have excellent social skills, and are very technically skilled to boot. You keep talking about cutting edge and relating it to degrees but it really makes no sense. If you got a CS degree 7 years ago what does that prove in relation to what's going on in the real world today? And do you suggest that every time a new technology rolls out that a person must go and get another degree to prove competence in that area? I don't think so. That is what certifications are for. And this forum is here to help people obtain them. Not to attempt to demoralize people without a degree.

As for those of you heading into Infosec which is where me and my company specialize, visit a blackhat event, like defcon and see how many of those people have ever set foot in college. Last year I watched a scientist from Microsoft with a PHD get an embarrasing lesson in kernel coding from a person who never went to college but runs a popular infosec website. Again, I'd never advise against college, but at the same time, everyone should remember that your desire to learn and love of the profession is what will make you stand out from the rest when it's all said and done.

Ten9t6

keatron wrote:

All the college degrees in the world will not get you through a CCIE Lab and nor will they get you through the CISSP examination. You also have to understand that there are tons of people out here doing things in the industry that don't have 4 year degrees. If you look around you can see these people everyday. They are the ones creating forums such as these, the ones finding the flaws in Windows OS's, etc etc etc. These are the people that companies go after, they don't have to apply for jobs. Now I myself have two bachelors and a Masters, so I'm definitely not against education, so I do agree with some of your points. But I'd suggest keeping your comments leaning in the direction of helping people better themselves whether it be via certifications or degrees. Try not to be insensitive and tell folks they won't make it in IT if they don't have a BS degree. Because frankly, it's just not true.

Good luck to you and thanks for your passionate posts.

I agree....I do not have a 4 year degree and feel that I am doing pretty well so far. But, in saying that, I do realize the importance of a degree. Unless I am in the right spot at the right time, I will not reach level I want, in my career without that degree. I have less than a year to go before I move on to a Masters in Information Security.

There are those out there that will do very well without a degree. But, why depend on only one piece of the puzzle. If you have that degree along with the certs and the experience, more doors of opportunity will open for you. It is my opinion that if you don't work on all the pieces, you are just shooting yourself in the foot.

Raross

---

"I agree networking is not that tough of a job, I look at it as a trade rather then a skill set."

I have worked on a many networks that would challenge this statement. The basics of networking are not tough. But, the more networks and technologies I see, the harder it gets. The more you learn, the more you realize that you really don't know crap. (Well, that is how I feel). I could easily come up with enough material for a networking degree.

Keatron---As soon as I finish my IE lab, I will send you my resume!

Kenny

keatron

Kenny my man, I'd hire you on the spot right now.

Judd

keatron wrote:

If I want a manager then yes this helps, but if I want a specialist (which is certainly what it sounds like you're referring to concerning Flexray) the I want a specialist in that area or at least someone who's got experience implementing networks. I could care less if you have a progamming degree with absolutely no experience with networks.

What I've realized is that many of the posters here are very young individuals who are either not in the industry at all, or have very little experience in the business world. Once they get their foot in the door, they will realize that they know nothing right out of college.

Yes, college is a great building block, and may employers add this to job adds because it demonstrates to them that you are capable of starting and finishing something, applying knowledge and many other things. There are many other ways to demonstrate this as well, such as experience and certifications.

Keaton's quote above is an example of forward thinking. However many employers don't have that vision or understand what a job in IT requires and assume it must take a BS degree because it deals with math and Base2 calculations and logic. Things they probably have no clue about. Your position as a job seeker is to either apply for the position and educate the employer about what skill set is required and what you can do to fill this requirement, or you avoid those jobs and seek a position more tailored to your skill set.

Many of those jobs for net admins go unfilled longer then they should because applicants won't apply due to unrealistic requirements. How many times have you see those job ads where HR or the employer simply copies and pastes what looks to be the requirements for the MCSE as their requirements. Those are the types of jobs that gave me the idea for this thread.

keatron wrote:

but if I want a specialist (which is certainly what it sounds like you're referring to concerning Flexray) the I want a specialist in that area or at least someone who's got experience implementing networks

My degree was four full semesters of pure 802.3 networking. Yes there were the required gen eds but for the most part it was specialized in networking. Unless you have a concentration in networking for two years, you will not get hands on experience like I did, from a four-year college. I interviewed with many 4-year schools, most didn't come close to the equipment and lab setup that the two-year college had which I attended. I wanted to specialize in networking, I attained those skills, and my employer has recognized that.

raross

Networking is a trivial matter no matter how big it gets. The model stays the same, just expands. The art of the network is the real machine, the algorithms etc is the hard part. But that is way beyond a networkers abstration. Now I am talking about engineering/math rather then networking .

garv221

When I look at resume's for new hires, I really don't pay attention to the degree part unles it shows some work in the college IT dept. or development with the school network, stuff like that. I mainly look for a good solid resume that gets to the point. I like to hear " I have" not "I can" or "I know how" there is a difference with people who have experience. It requires less micro managment, the employee hits the ground running, personal pressue is MUCH lower, and the learning curve is low. Honestly an education is great, I have an associates,it helped me get my foot in the door for experience at cheap wages when I was starting out. It hasn't helped with career moves though. With all my experience it is actualy a burden trying to fit education and experience on a one page resume'.

Ten9t6

raross wrote:

Networking is a trivial matter no matter how big it gets. The model stays the same, just expands. The art of the network is the real machine, the algorithms etc is the hard part. But that is way beyond a networkers abstration. Now I am talking about engineering/math rather then networking .

haha...ok.... I think we need to interview you for our team . So, this same model fits all organizations and the only thing that changes is the size of the Visio?

Kenny

t4echo

I am not here to downplay a degree by no means. But just thought that you might get a kick out of this info I found on CNN the other day when I was reading an article.

What do Microsoft founder Bill Gates, Oracle CEO Larry Ellison and entertainment mogul David Geffen have in common? Besides being exceedingly rich, none of them has a college degree.

You learn something new everyday!!