Anyone ever had their mind blown by a salary offer? (in a bad way)

Thacker

This is going to be a real "first world" problems thread, but let me explain.

I've been in IT on and off for the last 9 years or so. Over that time I've continually advanced my certifications and skill set, whether I was working in a formal position or not. Over that time, most of my experience has been working for MSP's and I am very familiar with their business model, and the typical profit a MSP can achieve.

With that said, I've been wanting to progress towards software development and as a result I've decided to pursue the software degree from WGU. I made another thread on Wednesday in regards to a company refusing me an interview for that, but that's neither here nor there.

Anyways, on to this topic. I've never felt correctly compensated for any of the positions I've held, based on the job I end up doing. I will accept a MSP position with "X" requirements, but then I get into the job and it's always been "X + X + X" with some extra "X" added on the weekend and oh, you're on call constantly. As a result, I am extremely hesitant to take another MSP position, but I was contacted by a company I had sent in my resume to and was invited for an interview.

I will copy and paste some of the highlights of the job posting below:

"The minimum level of experience for this position is 5+ years of Systems Administration and Networking support"
"Your server knowledge will need to be from 2003 to 2012. Desktop support from XP to Windows 8"
"Proven experience in virtualization technologies such as HyperV and ESXI 5+. High availability virtualization experience in clustered environments a plus"

Additional skillets no required but considered a bonus:
"Linux / OSX experience"
"iSCSI SAN networking"
"Site to site VPN and router configuration for small / medium businesses with Cisco / Watchguard / Brocade technologies"

Great I thought, this position HAS to pay more than what I've taken before. On top of that their offices were located in one of the most expensive areas of town.

I get to the interview and it goes great. I am told a few times throughout the interview that he considers my skill set perfect for the position. At the end I am asked what kind of salary I am looking to get, and I defer the question back to him in regards to a range of what they are looking to pay.

I am told 50k... with the ability to make up to 60k with "bonus". I couldn't help but be taken back, and I think I sat there with my mouth open for a second before saying I felt that was a little bit too far from what I'd be willing to accept.

I've been in talks with recruiters lately of positions paying 75-90k for my skill set, yet nothing has really developed. I look at salaries on reddit and other sites for college grads and those in software development and they are all in the 60k+ range for someone just starting, let alone with 8 years experience in IT. This was the primary reason to motivate me towards doing development, but I figured I would still be able to earn a decent income in administration and engineering until I had the skill set to develop.

Is this really what support IT has become? Systems administration and engineering has devalued so much that a company could realistically expect someone to accept a 5+ year professional level position for 50k in one of the most populated, busy areas of the city? I apologize if I am coming off angry or bitter, I am not.. I am just sorely disappointed in what this reveals. It tells me that somewhere along the line, people in this field are accepting less... and less.... for doing more and more. I am hoping this lowball was just a fluke and some of the interviews I have next week will lead to better offers... but in the end I can't help but wonder.

Thoughts?

BlackBeret

Well here's the way I look at it. You know what you're worth and what you want out of a position, so always ask for it, and then some. On the other hand, the people that do the hiring and paying know what they want to pay a person for the job and generally have an idea of what they can pay for the position. In the end, this is part of the job game. I used to ask for a range for jobs, but found that positions are often willing to pay a lot more than they want to pay for the right person. Now I make the first request in a salary negotiation and end up getting the pay I want, or not taking the job.

BlackBeret

As far as it becoming a diluted market, it really depends on the area you're in. I'm on the security side in a city with a lot of jobs. Of course there are lots of employees to compete for the jobs, but there seems to be no lack of jobs. At the same time there are cities out there with lots of skilled IT personnel and not enough jobs, especially around colleges from what I've seen. Having a willingness to move to a new market, switch roles, etc. made the difference for me. Switching to development might be a great start, but look at your particular area. The side of the city the business is on rarely makes a difference, the amount of jobs and skilled labor within a 1 hour commuting distance is what makes the difference.

Thacker

This is Atlanta, for reference.

nster

that job seems like a 65-70K (CAD) job in my area

Thacker

nster wrote: »

that job seems like a 65-70K (CAD) job in my area

Based on what I see on glassdoor and other sites, in this area it should have been the same. 65-80k or so. This MSP bills out at 165/hr, they do 0 contract work all billable time, and they ask their techs to get 25 hours of billable time per week minimum.

pevangel

That doesn't seem too far off from what I've been seeing here recently in MD, and the COL here is higher than GA. I saw this similar listing for a Systems Engineer in Atlanta and the salary range is 55-66K.

https://tridatumsolutions-openhire.silkroad.com/epostings/index.cfm?fuseaction=app.dspjob&jobid=104&company_id=17095&version=1&jobBoardId=3338

IIIMaster

You should have never thrown the ball in his court. Tell them what you seek for salary and they will accomadate it, bargain or let you go.

Thacker

pevangel wrote: »

That doesn't seem too far off from what I've been seeing here recently in MD, and the COL here is higher than GA. I saw this similar listing for a Systems Engineer in Atlanta and the salary range is 55-66K.

https://tridatumsolutions-openhire.silkroad.com/epostings/index.cfm?fuseaction=app.dspjob&jobid=104&company_id=17095&version=1&jobBoardId=3338

This is extremely depressing. Why would anyone accept a position requiring 5+ years of specialized experience at this salary and not look for more?

techfiend

I've been noticing systems don't pay as well as they used to, even a year ago, in the twin cities that job might get $80K but 70K is more likely. Sys admins $50-60K. Then you look at network positions with 5 years of experience often getting $100K+ and that's a lot here, one could comfortably live on $60K. It's been a long time since I've seen a systems job $100K+. My theory is msp's have reduced the amount of systems positions and companies are able to pay a lot less for the large supply available, basic supply and demand.

networker050184

This is why you always discuss a salary range before wasting everyone's time with interviewing.

Thacker

networker050184 wrote: »

This is why you always discuss a salary range before wasting everyone's time with interviewing.

You seem to be insinuating that I wasted the companies time, but isn't the fault as much on their end as it is mine? If companies would post a range in the job description that they are looking to pay wouldn't this solve the problem?

Jon_Cisco

It seems to me like he presented a low offer knowing that the market allowed him to. Any time you hire someone you make a value choice. Some companies hire 3 people for 50k to get by while others pay one persons 150k. I have not been in your position yet but I don't blame you for being taken back by the suggested range.

I'm not a great negotiator but I know the one thing you need before you get started. Know what your living requirements are and make sure you can meet them. The rest is flexible and you can try to make the most informed choice. Maybe you will learn something that justifies accepting the low offer. Maybe you need to walk away and of course maybe they have the flexibility to offer you 80k plus incentives if you ask for it.

Salary discussions are always relevant so thank you for bringing your story to us.
Good Luck!

kly630

I'm in Atlanta looking right now and it's turning out about the same for me during my search. I recently was interviewing for a DBA role and had the position closed an re-opened with a much lesser title (and implied lesser pay) than I was looking for. At least the recruiter was kind enough to give me a heads up that would happen before the onsite interview and blamed it on restructuring.

Since I make 50k and am currently fully remote really very few jobs here appear to have any upside after having that happen.

Magmadragoon

I think we all have low ball job offers in our lives, just thank them for their time and move on. I had one company offer me $15600 per year salary for a NOC engineer position. This includes the non-existing benefits package, on call 24/7 schedule, and five dollar per day tolls. I politely refused the offer and kept on interviewing with other companies.

LeBroke

Just had a company offer me $36k for a network security analyst position. With a rotating schedule with no set days and a requirement that I stop working for my consulting company as well. Bumped it to $40k after I declined... I have 3 years real world experience in it, an almost finished CEH, and the only thing preventing me from grabbing an in-house security engineer position is my fairly limited knowledge of firewall configuration (that I am aware of and will rectify in the near future).

I got offered more for desktop support roles a year ago...

networker050184

Thacker wrote: »

You seem to be insinuating that I wasted the companies time, but isn't the fault as much on their end as it is mine? If companies would post a range in the job description that they are looking to pay wouldn't this solve the problem?

I'm insinuating everyone's time was wasted because neither side discussed the info at the beginning. Both sides can learn from this and discuss salary much earlier next time hopefully.

down77

Thacker wrote: »

This is going to be a real "first world" problems thread, but let me explain.


I've been in talks with recruiters lately of positions paying 75-90k for my skill set, yet nothing has really developed.

Thoughts?

I think this says it all. Recruiters promise a number of things and many of them are beyond their control. Make sure to do the market research on the positions you are trying to land and the pay you are willing to accept. I work with a lot of companies in Atlanta and they are generally in the $60-75k range for a Systems Engineer with 5-9 years of experience and certification directly related to the required skills. Senior Engineers (9+yrs experience and expert level skills) may be in the $80k+ range.

While $50k may seem low for that position, mid $60k is not out of line for a mid-tier Systems Administrator in Atlanta.

As networker said, make sure to bright up your salary requirements early in the process so that neither party walks away upset.

Thacker

down77 wrote: »

I think this says it all. Recruiters promise a number of things and many of them are beyond their control. Make sure to do the market research on the positions you are trying to land and the pay you are willing to accept. I work with a lot of companies in Atlanta and they are generally in the $60-75k range for a Systems Engineer with 5-9 years of experience and certification directly related to the required skills. Senior Engineers (9+yrs experience and expert level skills) may be in the $80k+ range.

While $50k may seem low for that position, mid $60k is not out of line for a mid-tier Systems Administrator in Atlanta.

As networker said, make sure to bright up your salary requirements early in the process so that neither party walks away upset.

Could you PM me somewhere to forward over my resume for consideration in regards to a mid tier system admin or junior developer position?

Thanks.

hurricane1091

Got offered $12.50/hr at a NOC that required a CCNA (or to get one within 6 months of starting). Thought that was pretty crazy.

iBrokeIT

hurricane1091 wrote: »

Got offered $12.50/hr at a NOC that required a CCNA (or to get one within 6 months of starting). Thought that was pretty crazy.

An entry level position that requires an entry level certification? Sounds about right to me...

jeremywatts2005

I deal mostly with recruiters and I get calls all the time trying to low ball. Mostly off shore guys calling with x position they are trying to fill in my area. I am really clear up front about what I make now and what I expect in my next position. Anything less than that we are not talking. Also I hate it when I am told a salary up front and I get to the end and they say it is lower but they have a bonus to make up the rest. I am not a sales guy and I am not working on a bonus to make up my salary. If you cannot afford to hire me then I do not need to work for you. A lot of smalls and startups are like that and I just do not have time for them anymore. I tried to work for some and my career stalled with them as well as salary. I have never seen a bonus be paid out and also be careful on the bonus thing, because I have had the bonus rules change at a small also. Bottom line state your salary range clearly and make sure you include the benefits.

hurricane1091

iBrokeIT wrote: »

An entry level position that requires an entry level certification? Sounds about right to me...

No, it's low for this area. CCNA isn't like having an A+ or Network+ (even just having an A+ can get you more than $12.50/hr with nothing else) Have seen NOC listings and pay. Nothing special but most pay more than $12.50/hr and this was also part time with no tuition reimbursement or anything worthwhile. This was a while ago, like in 2013. You figure $12.50/hr comes out to $26k a year in Philly Metro, that's horrible. But it was part time like I said, so wasn't even something I'd consider.

http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/76998-starting-pay-noc-level-1-2-major-city.html


As for the OP, it seems low to me. If you were really good at your job, I wouldn't accept it. The guy I work under here would be qualified for that type of work and he's moving on to somewhere else, and relatively certain it's a good chunk more than that. $60k isn't that terrible I guess, but I read it as $50k because a bonus doesn't exist until it's in your bank. And with that logic, it's low.

BradleyHU

networker050184 wrote: »

I'm insinuating everyone's time was wasted because neither side discussed the info at the beginning. Both sides can learn from this and discuss salary much earlier next time hopefully.

exactly! i don't proceed to in-person interviews before even know what their range is. I don't got time to waste with multiple rounds of interviews...

networker050184

Ain't nobody got time for that.

olaHalo

networker050184 wrote: »

This is why you always discuss a salary range before wasting everyone's time with interviewing.

This
Ive actually made a few people upset by talking about it first. These people were always the lowballers and Im glad we didnt waste each others time.

ratbuddy

I have recruiters bugging me every day, and if they won't say what the position pays, the phone call ends right then. Any good/honest recruiter will be happy to discuss salary range up front.

Life is too short to waste time on weasels!

joelsfood

Salary range and any requirements that you have (IE, I don't even pick up the phone unless the job is 100% wfh) should be discussed before you ever go in for an interview.

cyberguypr

We've discussed the whole "compensation or range must be known before I commit to an interview" issue before. My conclusion is that some people here have way too much free time to randomly go on interviews without knowing what they are walking into.

GForce75

Thacker wrote: »

This is going to be a real "first world" problems thread, but let me explain.

I've been in IT on and off for the last 9 years or so. Over that time I've continually advanced my certifications and skill set, whether I was working in a formal position or not. Over that time, most of my experience has been working for MSP's and I am very familiar with their business model, and the typical profit a MSP can achieve.

With that said, I've been wanting to progress towards software development and as a result I've decided to pursue the software degree from WGU. I made another thread on Wednesday in regards to a company refusing me an interview for that, but that's neither here nor there.

Anyways, on to this topic. I've never felt correctly compensated for any of the positions I've held, based on the job I end up doing. I will accept a MSP position with "X" requirements, but then I get into the job and it's always been "X + X + X" with some extra "X" added on the weekend and oh, you're on call constantly. As a result, I am extremely hesitant to take another MSP position, but I was contacted by a company I had sent in my resume to and was invited for an interview.

I will copy and paste some of the highlights of the job posting below:

"The minimum level of experience for this position is 5+ years of Systems Administration and Networking support"
"Your server knowledge will need to be from 2003 to 2012. Desktop support from XP to Windows 8"
"Proven experience in virtualization technologies such as HyperV and ESXI 5+. High availability virtualization experience in clustered environments a plus"

Additional skillets no required but considered a bonus:
"Linux / OSX experience"
"iSCSI SAN networking"
"Site to site VPN and router configuration for small / medium businesses with Cisco / Watchguard / Brocade technologies"

Great I thought, this position HAS to pay more than what I've taken before. On top of that their offices were located in one of the most expensive areas of town.

I get to the interview and it goes great. I am told a few times throughout the interview that he considers my skill set perfect for the position. At the end I am asked what kind of salary I am looking to get, and I defer the question back to him in regards to a range of what they are looking to pay.

I am told 50k... with the ability to make up to 60k with "bonus". I couldn't help but be taken back, and I think I sat there with my mouth open for a second before saying I felt that was a little bit too far from what I'd be willing to accept.

I've been in talks with recruiters lately of positions paying 75-90k for my skill set, yet nothing has really developed. I look at salaries on reddit and other sites for college grads and those in software development and they are all in the 60k+ range for someone just starting, let alone with 8 years experience in IT. This was the primary reason to motivate me towards doing development, but I figured I would still be able to earn a decent income in administration and engineering until I had the skill set to develop.

Is this really what support IT has become? Systems administration and engineering has devalued so much that a company could realistically expect someone to accept a 5+ year professional level position for 50k in one of the most populated, busy areas of the city? I apologize if I am coming off angry or bitter, I am not.. I am just sorely disappointed in what this reveals. It tells me that somewhere along the line, people in this field are accepting less... and less.... for doing more and more. I am hoping this lowball was just a fluke and some of the interviews I have next week will lead to better offers... but in the end I can't help but wonder.

Thoughts?

I'm a-bit off topic, but that is why I have working on numerous certs. I realize that wireless and security fields are always important, mostly to the federal government. My goal is to get PMP, CISM, and the other flavors off CISSP, including other pen testing certs and finish this never ending DBA. It just my view, but my goal is to be a Security IT PM against the progression of ever-growing security threats (and continue to learn because it never stops). I felt that the traditional S+,N+,MCSA, help desk route is stagnant. This is my two sense, but could be completely wrong in regards to someone else's experience.

tprice5

I got offered $45k to work at GITMO in austere conditions. I was making $65k at the time. Thought that was pretty funny.