A history lesson.

2lazybutsmart

Webmaster wrote:

Well said RussS... except for one 'small' detail: I'm not from Germany...

Of course you're not from Germany (although I just don't seem to make anything out of your lat/long co-ordinates: D)

Good old "The Netherlands". And BTW, do you mind explaining why your country has two names (i.e. Holland & the Netherlands?). And since you mentioned Germany, both countries speak Dutch right? And yes... some Germans call their country Deutschland right? But then the confusing part is when some friends of mine from Holland tell me they don’t speak the same language as Germans. Could you please clear this up.

I hope this isn't politics. I call it geography to be more accurate

and... yes RussS... one 'small detail', I'm from the Canada... (not there though);)

cheeblie

Um... Germans speak German.

Webmaster

Hehe... yeah they do. They speak German.

In The Netherlands we speak Dutch, which is pretty different. Many people including myself, do speak German (as well as English, French and some people also Spanish, almost everyone here is at least bi-langual, at the age of 10 we start with English classes). But very few Germans speak or even understand Dutch. Germans generally speak only German.

The misconception that both people in Germany and The Netherlands speak Dutch is very common outside Europe and Asia. Nothing is further from the truth. This misunderstanding is probably caused by the fact that in English (only in English) my language is referred to as "Dutch", while Germans call their country Deutschland (pronounced a bit like: "DoytssjlanD").... on top of that in my language Germans is "Duits".. which is similar as well. At least I hope this is the reason, and not the fact that we have been occupied by Germany during WWII, (because of a man that said immigrants (Jews) were stealing their jobs...) You can imagine old folks in my country don't appreciate the confusion between our countries, although that's all in the past.

In my language my country is "Nederland" (we never say Holland except on holidays in foreign countries, and we speak "Nederlands"... I honestly have no idea who to blame for the word "Dutch".

Besides "Nederlands", in one province (Friesland where I grew up) they speak "Fries" (Frysian in English I believe), this is a completely different language (which is spoken in some parts of Germany). Dutch is more related to the German language, Frysian is more related to English... (Frysian is an actual recognized language, not a dialect as some people in my country like to state. I have to admit I don't speak it well.)

This is also related to the Holland (litteraly "hol land' means "hollow land") / The Netherlands (as in the lower lands) thing. What was once Holland is now two provinces, Southern and North-Holland. The Netherlands comes from a name that is similar to the United States actually. At at certain point in history all the provinces (states) united, something like the United Nether Lands, at that point most of Belgium was part of it as well. The northern part of Belgium is sometimes referred to as the Soutern Netherlands (by both Dutch (<--- there's that word again) and Belgium people). The Netherlands is the correct/preffered name.

( the low/ hollow thing comes from the fact that about half of The Netherlands lies below the sea surface)

It think the misunderstanding is a shame, our history and culture is much richer (global-wise) compared to Germany (but then again, our current Royal family originates from Germany...) We were the first to own New York, (New Amsterdam at that time) before we sold it to the English, as well as many other cities, New Harlem for example comes from Haarlem which is a medium sized city near our capital. Anybody in New York knows Bleekerstreet, Bleeker is a Dutch name (my girlfriend's last name actually), Bleeker is bleeching in English, hence it was a name give by Napoleon to the people that bleeched clothes for a living.

Perhaps I should mention that The Netherlands include a couple of islands in the carribean as well, although we are not particulary proud about how those have been acquired.

We have the same problem with job vacancies in The Netherlands as in most places in the world. I've tried to stay away from personal opinions in this post as much as possible, but I would like to say, that I think the only ones we can blame are we ourselves (at least this is true for my country)... we've just spend to much and have been to careless when things were going well. And as for immigrants... technically we are all immigrants. We meaning virtually all the people on this entire planet.

And no, we do not walk on wooden shoes (anymore, although I did when I was 5 or 6, and many farmers still do.)

Anyway, if one of you ends up in The Netherlands one day, there are two things you have to try:
- bitterballen
- drop

Yes, we do have a load of windmills, here's a typical one which I'm also incorporating in the design of the PDF TechNotes:

www.techexams.net/images/mill.jpg

And here's a "dijk", what we use to protect our country against the sea:
www.techexams.net/images/dijk.jpg

Johan

pandimus

you protect your lands from the sea with grass??
Or is that the grassy knowel the Kennedy was shot from?

No really It is beautiful. I would love to visit that part of the world.

Right after Egypt.

pandimus

Webmaster

You protect your lands from the sea with grass??

No, that grows on the 'dijk'. Check out the streetlight at the middle right end of the pic... The dijk itself is about 10 meters or higher...

RussS

<< beats head against the wall

Of course I just assumed that webmaster was German by his name & didn't check his profile - we all know what happens when we assume aye?

Makes an ASS of U & Me

Webmaster

Johan is not really a German name (I think) but in German it is usually Johann (double n) and the stress on hann instead of Jo (yes, this is the off-topic forum ) It's the short version of 'Johannes' which is the name we use for John the Baptist...

I always thought there were ten thousands of Dutch people living in New Zealand...

Funny though RussS, I know you since October 4th last year...

RussS

Never actually thought of the spelling. I know several Johann's and they are all German or of German extraction.

Oh well - back to off-topic .... it's dang freezing here at the moment and I can't wait for it to warm up again so I can get the boat out and start fishing again.

Webmaster

NZ is pretty much exactly on the opposite side of the world for me, for once since 9 months I'm not complaining about the weather taking out the boat next Sunday

pandimus

Freezing??? Freezing?? freezing you say?

It is currently 100F.... Thats 37.7 C for you euro chaps...

was just 105F 40.5

OH yeah.. Also Raining..

http://www.weather.com/weather/local/93523?lswe=93523&lwsa=WeatherLocalUndeclared

pandimus

I would love to go to New Zealand. Thats were they filmed Lord of the Rings two towers..

Beautiful...

pandimus

Webmaster

Yeah that alone is a good reason. I would have to fly for 24 hours though...

RussS

Actually it isn't THAT cold today - about 2/4C I guess. When ones perfect temperature is in the 20's then you notice it ... lol

Yes a great place to visit or live - the fishing is pretty good if you know where to look and the diving is great too. Of course the water isn't as warm as up around Oz or the islands, but I would think a whole lot clearer and warmer than the north sea

pandimus

What is OZ? old zealand?

Webmaster

I think he refers to Aussie. Australia.

Zeeland is a province in the Netherlands, that's why it is New Zealand... so our province would be 'old Zealand'
More history lessons: New Zealand was ones part of The Netherlands..., Australia was at that time known as New Holland, they named it Zeelandia Nova (Nieuw Zeeland in Dutch, now New Zealand) to match the name New Holland...
now that I think about it, we weren't very original at that time... New Amsterdam, New Harlem, New Holland, New Zealand

pandimus

Dont forget about New Diet coke with lemon

You should also be a history teacher...

FR29

hankyou for the lesson on your country webmaster (Johan). I found it rather enlightening (as I'm half Dutch myself). It's nice to know more about one's origins, ya know?
I too, would love to visit NZ, or Australia.

2lazybutsmart

Webmaster wrote:

This misunderstanding is probably caused by the fact that in English (only in English) my language is referred to as "Dutch", while Germans call their country Deutschland (pronounced a bit like: "DoytssjlanD").... on top of that in my language Germans is "Duits".. which is similar as well.

Yep.. this dutch - deutshland thing makes things look the same. and yes... "Duits" is Germans in "Dutch". You speak "Nederlands" which is known as "Dutch" in English. The "Doytssjland" thing is of course the right way to say Deutchland. But then isn't "Doytssj" by itself referred to as what Germans speak (i.e. their language)?

Suppose I was a German, I'd say in German (Doytssj)

"I speak Doytssj "

Right?

whew!. I think i'll have to come over to "The Netherlands" to get this thing straight (and... of course I'll need Johan's help )

RussS

Ahhh, the eternal argument - who found NZ first?

Cook? or Van Deiman??

Many school level history books argue this - personally I say Van Deiman, but he forgot to tell anybody except his own people At least until after the bloody poms came down here

pandimus

Poms? Did you say Poms??

Zumpel

german (as a language) would more sound like "Doitsh" ("sh" as in crah or mosh)

snaginwy

"We were the first to own New York, (New Amsterdam at that time)..."

Sorry, Johan, but I think the "American" Indians were the first to own New York/New Amsterdam. At least, they were there first.

"Grandma"

Webmaster

Sorry Grandma, but I'm talking about the city.... not the piece of ground. We build the first houses and stores . A church, a sawmill, and a bakery to be exact, during the regime of Wouter Van Twiller.

But you are right, we bought it from the Indians. At first the Indians and Dutch colonist were living peacefully 'amongst' eachother.... sort of. Untill the Indians didn't want to pay taxes as often as the Dutch wanted to collect them and the Indians started smuggling fur. The Dutch hired a mercanary named John Underhill (an English bloke), he and his paid followers slaugthered the Indian tribes. At that time the Director General, Willem Kieff, was called home to Holland, because of his terrible performance, his ships sunk on the way home.

Then, Peter Stuyvesant left Holland for New Amsterdam to become the new director-general. (yes, from the sigarettes also...)

He had more buildings constructed, including a hospital and a fortified wall (now Wall Street)...

Anyway, in 1664, the English King, Charles II, gave New Netherland (not to confuse with New Holland, which was Aussie), to his brother the Duke of York, James Stuart. James set sail with a couple of ships to claim New Netherland (including New Amsterdam). Peter Stuyvesant wanted to fight them when they arrived at Manhatten, but was adviced not to do so since they didn't had a chance. So they raised the white flag and it became New York.

In 1673, when France and England made a pact to get hold of the valuable Dutch trade routes. The Dutch send ships to New York and reclaimed it, and called it New Orange. A year later the French attacked the home country of the Dutch, forcing them to give in and they handed over New Orange again, which became New York again.

bellboy

orange of course being the name of the dutch royal family that was told by the pope to become kings of england (may have been the united kingdom in those days actually), or something like that. and put a new angle on the british/irish thing that's lasted over 300 years.

Webmaster

Yes, England and The Netherlands (at that time "Republic of the Seven United Provinces") always had a close relationship, even during wars.

I don't know about the pope, but what I do know is that Willem (van Oranje-Nassau...) II as well as his son Willem III married English princesses. In 1689 Willem III was even crowned as King of England after he defeated the Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland. I don't understand how the pope wanted to have the Roman Catholics defeated.

Then again, I only know bits and pieces, I was never really good in history, most of what I know is from visiting museums

I just found some more information about the name Holland:

Holland means "Woodland" in old Dutch (Diets), but there are some theories that it is a Viking name. There is a region in Sweden that is called "Halland" and it's weapon shield looks very much like the weapon shield of Holland (with the lion on a shield).

snaginwy

I loved everything about history class except the teacher (who had no fun in her) and dates. I could tell you what was going on in the rest of the world at the time something happened, but not the date! And I love museums.

2lazybutsmart

Very funny~... The Dutch initially bought New York (then New Amsterdam) from the Indians for $24 dollars worth of goods (gun power, rum, etc..).

Webmaster

Yeah, I didn't remember exactly how little it was so I didn't mention it... we 'sold' it again for about the same value when the French were closing in on our borders...