Do Certifications really mean you know your stuff?

IS3

Bchen2 wrote: »

Example if a network engineer or system admin have all the appropriate certification does that really mean they know how to do their job?

Not necessarily but certs do give you the basics on how to become a well rounded system/network admin. Being good at a job is a skill that requires everyday attendance to work, solving issues related to a specific job function.

BradleyHU

i look at it like this....its like getting your degree...you might have studied to pass the test, but that doesn't mean you know or even understand how to apply the information you learned.

a friend of mine put it best, "There's a right way, a wrong way, and the Microsoft way"....obviously you can exchange microsoft with whatever vendor your taking the test for...

kohr-ah

BradleyHU wrote: »

i look at it like this....its like getting your degree...you might have studied to pass the test, but that doesn't mean you know or even understand how to apply the information you learned.

a friend of mine put it best, "There's a right way, a wrong way, and the Microsoft way"....obviously you can exchange microsoft with whatever vendor your taking the test for...

If referencing the exams the Cisco way is then "Keep going forward, never look back, you made a mistake deal with it"

bigdogz

Certifications will help you learn some material, or at least prove that you could pass the exam.
In some instances they may fill in some gaps of what was learned on the job.

When looking for a job they come in handy and place your resume in the pile to be called or processed further.

jeremywatts2005

I have no problem with certs showing experience. What is funny though is what I see is someone who has no experience in a particular field getting certs in that field. So there is no possible way they are an expert. Washington DC has to be the worst for IT /Inosec I have ever seen. Everyone out there holds a CISSP it seems. Making the cert almost entry level. It's like you go down and pick one up along with CEH and a few others. There are 20 yr olds with no experience getting CISSP's. They fudge the resume and get a buddy to validate. ISC2 needs to start auditing things a bit more. Way too many certified and do not know anythings running around.

beads

jeremywatts2005 wrote: »

I have no problem with certs showing experience. What is funny though is what I see is someone who has no experience in a particular field getting certs in that field. So there is no possible way they are an expert. Washington DC has to be the worst for IT /Inosec I have ever seen. Everyone out there holds a CISSP it seems. Making the cert almost entry level. It's like you go down and pick one up along with CEH and a few others. There are 20 yr olds with no experience getting CISSP's. They fudge the resume and get a buddy to validate. ISC2 needs to start auditing things a bit more. Way too many certified and do not know anythings running around.

Probably find this in or near every major city. I live in Chicago proper and have stopped going to security meetups, there are several nearby, usually with someone looking for a CISSP sign-off. I would expect to see much the same with NOVA, NY or LA as well.

My thought this morning is that there seems to be an inverse effect from the number of books on a certification sold and the opposite value of holding that particular certificate. Perhaps there is a threshold warning before seeing the market drop for a cert?

- b/eads

--chris--

I will side with the people who say "no" to this question.

I think a better way to phrase this questions would be to say "people with certifications know of stuff". I am aware of all sorts of Cisco stuff I was not before I took the CCNA exams. I however don't know best way to implement all these technologies or how to support them in every scenario. Thats not what the exam / certification is for.

SpetsRepair

This thread should be stickied.

techfiend

I'd say no but you know more than those without the cert given identical experience. $100+ for decent practice tests doesn't help the cheating trend.

UnixGuy

docrice wrote: »

.... A person's ability to be effective on the job has much more to do with having skills in logical reasoning, communication, research, adaptability, personal maturity, and planning. Technical chops are important, but in the grand scheme of things it's just one aspect of a person's value-add.

..

How about my case, I already have the skills you mentioned (logical reasoning, communication, research, adaptability, personal maturity, and planning) + people's skills. What I lack is technical exposure and technical experience in certain areas, and I'm using certs with Labs (like eLearnSecurity) to get that initial technical exposure to allow me to step up to such position.

bpenn

UnixGuy wrote: »

How about my case, I already have the skills you mentioned (logical reasoning, communication, research, adaptability, personal maturity, and planning) + people's skills. What I lack is technical exposure and technical experience in certain areas, and I'm using certs with Labs (like eLearnSecurity) to get that initial technical exposure to allow me to step up to such position.

I am in the exact same position. I am a constant top performer but I perform Desktop support tasks and don't get the ability to touch infrastructure. All I need at this point is more technical hands-on knowledge. I agree with the certs and labs route. It is the ONLY way for me to get any sort of hands-on experience. Working on the CCNA has taught me so much and I am excited to gain more experience in relation to that.

goatama

jeremywatts2005 wrote: »

[...] Everyone out there holds a CISSP it seems. Making the cert almost entry level. It's like you go down and pick one up along with CEH and a few others. There are 20 yr olds with no experience getting CISSP's. [...]

I'll add to this sentiment with an anecdote: Several years ago I had just started a Tier 3 Infrastructure job at a local government and was working a ticket for a person that had CISSP in their Outlook signature. I asked her to get me her IP so I could troubleshoot something and there's a pause on the phone "Um, I don't know how to get that." I was flabbergasted. After I hung up the phone I started Googling to see if there was some OTHER certification with those same initials. Nope. It seems she had an old boss lie about her experience so she could get the cert. It's crap like that that makes determining the validity of a certification extremely difficult.

We need to go towards a lot more practical exams. If you have a VCAP, you know your crap when it comes to VMware. That is a hard exam. If you have your OSCP, odds are you know what you're doing in a pentest (at least technically). These are difficult exams where multiple-guess answers won't get you anywhere. Those are the ones that need to get more traction in the industry, and likewise we need to have more of them.

bpenn

goatama wrote: »

I'll add to this sentiment with an anecdote: Several years ago I had just started a Tier 3 Infrastructure job at a local government and was working a ticket for a person that had CISSP in their Outlook signature. I asked her to get me her IP so I could troubleshoot something and there's a pause on the phone "Um, I don't know how to get that." I was flabbergasted. After I hung up the phone I started Googling to see if there was some OTHER certification with those same initials. Nope. It seems she had an old boss lie about her experience so she could get the cert. It's crap like that that makes determining the validity of a certification extremely difficult.

We need to go towards a lot more practical exams. If you have a VCAP, you know your crap when it comes to VMware. That is a hard exam. If you have your OSCP, odds are you know what you're doing in a pentest (at least technically). These are difficult exams where multiple-guess answers won't get you anywhere. Those are the ones that need to get more traction in the industry, and likewise we need to have more of them.

People who lie about experience piss me off. I passed the CISSP with 3 years experience. I realize that I don't have the required experience to get endorsed so I dont. Also, I don't expect it to get me anywhere yet. The only reason I took the exam is my boss said it would be great knowledge to have for my current job and I had some free time in my life to hunker down and learn the material. I learned a TON from the cert that I am surprised I could actually apply to my current role. Now, in another year and a half when I half the required experience I will try to get endorsed but not until. I think the cert holds tremendous value but people attempting to get places with it without required knowledge and experience are devaluing it.

E Double U

goatama wrote: »

I'll add to this sentiment with an anecdote: Several years ago I had just started a Tier 3 Infrastructure job at a local government and was working a ticket for a person that had CISSP in their Outlook signature. I asked her to get me her IP so I could troubleshoot something and there's a pause on the phone "Um, I don't know how to get that." I was flabbergasted.

In her defense, my CISSP exam didn't ask me about ipconfig either.

NetworkNewb

E Double U wrote: »

In her defense, my CISSP exam didn't ask me about ipconfig either.

lol

I don't see what people are getting so hung up about this topic. Certifications mean people understand the topics that were on the test, nothing else! And they don't even need to know everything on that was the test to get it! People shouldn't expect a CISSP to have a bunch of technical skills (the last example was funny though ) , or a CCNA to understand everything that is going on in Network, or a MSCA to know everything about their server... If managers, or anyone, expects a certification to mean anything more than the person knows a good portion of the topics on the exam it is their fault.

zcarenow

nothing can substitute for real world experience, but how can someone get real world experience when employers don't value degrees or certs and prefer experience...so it is a tricky situation.

colemic

Bchen2 wrote: »

Example if a network engineer or system admin have all the appropriate certification does that really mean they know how to do their job?

Of course not - I don't expect them to be a whiz at everything when they first hit the ground (you have to learn the ins and outs of the environment.)

But it DOES mean that I expect them to know how to do the fundamentals of their job, as they relate to their certifications. If they can't, shake hands, part ways amicably.

LeBroke

echo_time_cat wrote: »

Yeah, there are people working with/for me that have higher certs than me, but struggle to identify what I would call basic issues. They just lack the experience, and will get there in time.

I've seen some with certs, but not hands on experience, try to use their theoretical knowledge when troubleshooting, and dig themselves into a pretty big hole. It's like the theoretical knowledge, when lacking experience, over-rules common sense.

I'd say it only means something if the cert matches the experience. If there is no experience on a resume, but nice looking certs, they'd better have an awesome home lab...

More likely, they have a different skillset. Some things may seem basic and really stupid to you, but aren't something someone else encounters often.

A high-level Linux system engineer or network architect might have zero idea how to troubleshoot Internet Explorer or Outlook problems because the last time they touched them was 15 years ago.

Conversely, you probably can't solve 95% of their typical problems.

malcybood

experience is the key and certs supplement experience by adding knowledge 8n respect to detail.

provided people don't **** at certs......

kly630

To explain my views, I like to make an analogy between studying a foreign language and technology certifications. I do it because it explains all the stuff we intuitively understand about how people learn skills with the concept of fluency.

To me, passing a written certification exam is like passing a written foreign language test in high school or college. Nice, but by no means a sign of fluency. Passing a lab exam is a bit better. It's like passing an oral examination. It basically means you're a bit closer to attaining that technical "fluency" since you're able to carry on a conversation. It proves you can at least speak the language. I wouldn't say you could be considered fluent just based on those alone though.

When we think of people as "fluent" in a foreign language we typically think of people who have lived or worked abroad for a number of years in country that speaks that language. They've been forced to use what they know every single day in a variety of different ways to get by. So the demands placed on those skills are a bit higher and they've had time to polish those skills. Following that line of reasoning, when we think of technical fluency, why shouldn't we think of people who have worked in an environment where they've had to "speak the language" every single day? Considering we don't just jump to assuming people who studied a foreign language in high school are in any way "fluent" in the language, I don't assume a cert makes me or anyone else "fluent" in any technology.

So at best, passing a cert in my mind means you're ready to try "living abroad in a country that speaks the language." Basically, you're ready for a junior position on a team that might make use of that technology.

Edit:
All that being said, I myself choose to study relevant certs to my job duties because I'm not the type who would go to a foreign country without at least trying to study the language.

NetworkingStudent

I think this video does a good job of explaining certification vs degree
Degree or Certification with Jeremy Cioara
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqiCQAvtvfs

Chadius

Here is an excerpt from a Systems Engineer job in my city:

Certifications:

• CCNA-Security/CCNP
• Security+CE
• Certifications will suffice in place of solid experience

bpenn

Chadius wrote: »

Here is an excerpt from a Systems Engineer job in my city:

Certifications:

• CCNA-Security/CCNP
• Security+CE
• Certifications will suffice in place of solid experience

I would kill for an opportunity like that. I love that they would reward personal growth with an opportunity.

TechGuru80

Certifications are used for validation of a minimum level of knowledge. For example, the CCNA shows one knows about routing protocols such as OSPF, EIGRP....but in no way is the person a MASTER. Somebody who is in the profession will have additional real world situational experience and by all means is helpful. The answer is situationally dependent because it will also matter how much experience is on staff and the responsibilities of the position. For example...if I had a team full of seasoned network engineers, but want to have a plan for the future, I might bring in a less experienced employee with the idea of them having others to fall back on and learn from. That example is a hypothetical situation and budget will also play a role.