Working in IT for an IT company vs. a non-IT company

blinkme323

Hey guys,

So for many years I worked as a systems admin for a large software company and loved pretty much every minute of it. About a year ago though, I jumped ship to a non-IT company doing a similar job for a nice raise. Now I'm not sure what all of your thoughts are, but I have found working in my current role much less enjoyable, as the appreciation for IT just doesn't seem to be there. Additionally, it constantly feels like an "us against them" type battle, which is so counter-intuitive to me.

Has anyone else worked on both sides of the spectrum and had similar experiences?

Thanks

Polynomial

Personally, in my non-software company jobs I always felt it was "IT vs. the budget". Changes the context a bit.

scaredoftests

Yes, I have had both worlds and I tell you, I would rather work with tech savvy people instead of people who don't have a clue. Less banging the head against the wall, so to speak.

$bvb379

scaredoftests wrote: »

Yes, I have had both worlds and I tell you, I would rather work with tech savvy people instead of people who don't have a clue. Less banging the head against the wall, so to speak.

Agreed, worked for a privately owned company, full of non-IT people. No one knew what SQL was, Macros, or how to use Excel efficiently for that matter. They were using the same exact queries in Access that the last CEO created in 2003 when they were a $5 million company, when I worked there they were a $32 million company with the same exact processes, no changed whatsoever. Still using paper invoices....paper everything. I couldn't make a suggestion without being questioned about it 3 or 4 times.....from non-technical people. I will never work in that sort of environment again. Way too frustrating.

josh.armentrout1

$bvb379 wrote: »

Agreed, worked for a privately owned company, full of non-IT people. No one knew what SQL was, Macros, or how to use Excel efficiently for that matter. They were using the same exact queries in Access that the last CEO created in 2003 when they were a $5 million company, when I worked there they were a $32 million company with the same exact processes, no changed whatsoever. Still using paper invoices....paper everything. I couldn't make a suggestion without being questioned about it 3 or 4 times.....from non-technical people. I will never work in that sort of environment again. Way too frustrating.

Sure those folk might be non-technical, but I find those that are non-technical and from the country to be more "real". In the end they may be better to work with if you can relate to their personal lives. Relate that stuff to the technical and they might be more receptive. I especially like it now that I have places to go shooting now.

networker050184

Personally I'll never work at a company where technology is not the business. I want to be driving the product not just a side cost of the business.

$bvb379

josh.armentrout1 wrote: »

Sure those folk might be non-technical, but I find those that are non-technical and from the country to be more "real". In the end they may be better to work with if you can relate to their personal lives. Relate that stuff to the technical and they might be more receptive. I especially like it now that I have places to go shooting now.

Don't get me wrong, the employees, bosses, culture, flexibility were awesome. The actual "workplace" was fantastic. I have no quarrels with anyone there, but like others have said, being the driving force behind the technology and being able to constantly learn new things is my drive. I didn't and was not allowed to do that there. I wouldn't say I wasn't allowed but I would just receive a pat on the back and things would continue as normal.

bermovick

I interviewed for a cisco partner a while back and I was told during the interview something I'd never really thought about before.

He said that (like was said above), non-IT shops see their IT department as an expense, whereas they (and other IT shops) have IT as their pretty much main source of revenue. They said they expect their people to have or get their CCIEs, and even to specialize in a second area, since that's what they do/sell. I really would have liked working there with that attitude, but we ended up moving to a different area.

Winzer

bermovick wrote: »

He said that (like was said above), non-IT shops see their IT department as an expense, whereas they (and other IT shops) have IT as their pretty much main source of revenue.

Pretty much this. Being seen as a not-so-necessary expense can be frustrating. They also don't understand that every IT workers aren't interchangeable . "Why do we need a 80k/year sysadmin, can't the 45k helpdesk guy do it?"

$bvb379

Winzer wrote: »

Pretty much this. Being seen as a not-so-necessary expense can be frustrating. They also don't understand that every IT workers aren't interchangeable . "Why do we need a 80k/year sysadmin, can't the 45k helpdesk guy do it?"

Adding on to your point. The tech companies appreciate the "knowledge base" it takes to do a job rather than a non-IT company. What it took mentally to get there. My old boss was paying someone (outside of the company) $150 or something outrageous like that to create/modify/change SQL statements in order to meet a need. Finally, after 6 months of persuasion stating that I could do anything in Access that she wanted me to, she finally let me take over. I was making $17hr btw. When I left (on good terms) she wanted to give me a list of what they need (like my skillset) with an MIS degree. I politely told her that what she was paying me probably was not enough (that is partially why I left) to get someone with an MIS degree, SQL knowledge, and web-design knowledge (I was also an independent consultant making sure that the third party who was running our website was giving a nice ROI, which they were not). Rant over. Sorry.

vanillagorilla3

I've been on both sides of the fence and working for an IT company, you definitely feel more appreciated. However, all non-IT related companies aren't bad. If you find one where your manager/director "get" what we do in IT, it can be a great place to work. Although most places I have been, it feels like me versus the budget. I've had people get upset when something isn't working and tell me how IT doesn't bring in money to the company.

Balantine

In some situations it is very OK to take a step down. For example, I want to get my Masters degree in a different field than IT. I've been in a network/systems engineering role at a MSP for the past 5 years. In my case I know I can't keep up with certifications for the latest technology and also do part-time M.S. simultaneously while being on-call and responding to emergencies and large time overruns for systems integration. I also have a lot of interests outside of IT, value work-life balance, and take very seriously who and what I am working for politically and philosophically. So even though I have the professional knowledge to be working at a 80K+ level I also have these other priorities right now. That's why I may move to the help desk 45K level (at a non-IT company) soon if I move to a city that has more to offer me in general.

I guess that makes me part of the problem, or maybe it is just a larger perspective than myself. Then again I may be somewhat biased because of still experiencing an "us vs them" psychosocial dynamic at a MSP as well. I don't believe that technology can always be the answer...especially in the future.

techfiend

I'd never move down to help desk even if I was paid much more to do it. I know some have taken a step back to go from systems to network which has some logic if they want to be in networking, which is basically changing sub-fields. Going back to the beginning would be boring, depressing and likely destroy a resume.

NetworkingStudent

I work at a small MSP.
A lot of people, including myself and others are overworked.
However, being overworked almost seems somewhat normal for an MSP.
There are things more important in life than money.



I think we all want to be appreciated for a job well done.
Receiving positive feedback, or just simple "thank you" can really make someone's day.

Most of people don't understand what it takes to get their computers properly.
It has to be hard for the End User to conceptualize the work the IT pro is performing.
This is why you get more respect at the IT company vs the non TV company.
This is my opinion.

blinkme323

bermovick wrote: »

I interviewed for a cisco partner a while back and I was told during the interview something I'd never really thought about before.

He said that (like was said above), non-IT shops see their IT department as an expense, whereas they (and other IT shops) have IT as their pretty much main source of revenue. They said they expect their people to have or get their CCIEs, and even to specialize in a second area, since that's what they do/sell. I really would have liked working there with that attitude, but we ended up moving to a different area.

Yep, this is exactly my experience. It's commonplace to hear whispers down the hall about outsourcing IT, cutting costs, etc. And we are already running lean as is.

kohr-ah

It depends on where you go and what you do.

IT company wise I have worked for MSPs but not for a vendor itself and I would say this side of it you are appreciated to a point but it also is soul draining. Not all MSPs are bad but the growth potential is extremely limited unless you leave for another MSP/provider.

I been told working for the IT side like VMWare, ATT, Splunk, Fortinet, Cisco, whomever, you get more appreciation and working for the IT company is much better than a overall MSP. Most people I've been told enjoy working for these type companies.

For Non-IT companies it really depends. The appreciation is different. I have had managers who appreciate what I can bring to the table, the improvements being made, and from that perspective it is nice. But the "satisfaction" level is different. The benefit of these style companies is if you want to move up the chain into a management role or something outside of engineering/technologies it makes it easier. Some of these must not be too bad because many people seem to stay at companies, universities, etc for a very long time even as engineers.

LeBroke

Winzer wrote: »

Pretty much this. Being seen as a not-so-necessary expense can be frustrating. They also don't understand that every IT workers aren't interchangeable . "Why do we need a 80k/year sysadmin, can't the 45k helpdesk guy do it?"

My company now.

"We need a second sysadmin."
"Okay, let's hire one."
"These guys all want 80k, that's too much, and I even pay developers at a software company 40k starting. You just need to interview the second they send in the resume, since most people just take the first offer."
"Okay, what about this guy, he doesn't have too much experience."
"Yeah, he'll do, let's low-ball him with 46 and move really fast before he jumps on a different offer." Cue me. I get a few offers for significantly more 1-2 months down the line from my round of applications, but decide to stay here because I like the company culture.

Now: "actually we think you don't do anything, all that stuff you're talking about seems easy. By the way why didn't you configure Jenkins to autodeploy from our unsecure QA server to a production server yet? Oh, and we want you to spend 50% of your time doing web app support now."

Other sysadmin: "$#%@# this, I'm out the same day you are, they're making me do way more work that's in my contract and now offloading your work onto me too."

On a totally unrelated topic, looking for jr.-mid level DevOps jobs in Vancouver, BC Hit me up if you know anything.

markulous

kohr-ah wrote: »

It depends on where you go and what you do.

IT company wise I have worked for MSPs but not for a vendor itself and I would say this side of it you are appreciated to a point but it also is soul draining. Not all MSPs are bad but the growth potential is extremely limited unless you leave for another MSP/provider.

I been told working for the IT side like VMWare, ATT, Splunk, Fortinet, Cisco, whomever, you get more appreciation and working for the IT company is much better than a overall MSP. Most people I've been told enjoy working for these type companies.

For Non-IT companies it really depends. The appreciation is different. I have had managers who appreciate what I can bring to the table, the improvements being made, and from that perspective it is nice. But the "satisfaction" level is different. The benefit of these style companies is if you want to move up the chain into a management role or something outside of engineering/technologies it makes it easier. Some of these must not be too bad because many people seem to stay at companies, universities, etc for a very long time even as engineers.

I was at a MSP for about a year and a half and have been working at VMware for a few months. I did remote support for the MSP so it wasn't quite as grueling as the onsite guys go through since we really didn't have much overtime and worked M-F. I feel more appreciated here and it's a better environment, however this is just a better overall company in every way possible. They actually seem to care about their employees and their growth with nice benefits, training, etc.

kohr-ah

markulous wrote: »

This is just a better overall company in every way possible. They actually seem to care about their employees and their growth with nice benefits, training, etc.

What you said right here is what most people I know that went to work for the companies are responding with.

I myself work at a company where IT isn't appreciated (Corporate Company - Non IT). It has made me dread my career to an extent which is wrong and I do not like because I have worked hard and am very good at what I do and is why I am going to leave in the spring to seek what you've said above.

markulous

I feel like if the company itself was better than the MSP may not have been so bad, but maybe MSPs are just naturally bad since their focus is just collecting money from their customers. I was underpaid, they had crap training, no opportunities to grow, and their learning culture was weak. Guess that's how they make their money, I dunno.

UncleB

It really helps if you think of the situation from the point of view of the board and investors (since they are the owners and they pay you to do your job).

IT is a service, just like the facilities team who handle the post, coffee supplies and co-ordinate the cleaners - we are all there to help the business do its job and produce what it does, whether a product or service. Once you get your head around this you can see that to persuade the owners that IT is not just a drag on their profitability then you can get onto thinking outside your own box and think how you can improve the business somehow.

This means you need to understand the language they use and how to talk to them about it. Talking about SQL queries, bandwidth limitations or the benefit of a version upgrade of your favourite widget is like the facilities guy talking about the benefit of a plastic brush handle over a wooden one - nobody cares unless you put it in a context they can relate to.

The role of this liaison is typically a Service Delivery Managers position, but not many companies have this role so you have to work out how it can be handled officially, or if the company is not that way inclined, you should consider making it a part of your own dealings with other departments.

By understanding your place in the big picture and how it interacts with others you can understand how you can improve what you do to meet their needs, and by talking their language you get respect, recognition and boost the standing of IT in the business so get the appreciation of your own bosses.

It isn't easy but it is worth it and can be a big career booster, especially when you can talk about it in interviews for better positions.

Just my £0.02 worth.

thanks
Iain

TerminalB

In my experience, I've always preferred working for IT companies. You can still find some good jobs outside of that, but as others have said, IT will always be a cost to them and something that if they could outsource for cheaper, they would.

Anonymouse

I worked at a non-profit for a while as a jack of all trades sysadmin. This is the kind of crap I dealt with.

- people thought we were lazy because we weren't out crawling under desks fixing computers all day, truth was that we were usually busy working at our desks but to them we were browsing the internet
- salaries were published internally, people didn't think we deserved our pay, our jobs paid more than a lot of the jobs requiring degrees, didn't help that some of us were highschool dropouts with no real college education

UnixGuy

IT company all the way! For the experience, and long term money.

I don't want to say why non IT companies are not for me; I'll do that once I transition back to an IT company

OctalDump

UncleB wrote: »

This means you need to understand the language they use and how to talk to them about it. Talking about SQL queries, bandwidth limitations or the benefit of a version upgrade of your favourite widget is like the facilities guy talking about the benefit of a plastic brush handle over a wooden one - nobody cares unless you put it in a context they can relate to.

I care dammit. Have you ever had splinters in your hands, but have to keep working with your hands?

But, yes, you are right. For any person in an organisation, one needs to be able to draw the line from what they are doing through to the company's mission. It can be a bit like "for want of a nail" as you draw the relationship between, say a version upgrade on a driver, through to small bandwidth increases, through to increase responsiveness for an app, to less waiting time for Mary Jane in accounts, to reduced delays in the accounts receivable process, to increased responsiveness to clients, to increased revenues etc.

If you personally can articulate that about your job to those that matter, you are going to seem far more valuable and people are going to feel a lot better about the $19.50/hour they are paying you.