Degree frustration

strauchr

I have come across a number of people both users of this forum and in jobs I have worked where they are extremely frustrated and down right p***ed off because they have to start at entry level jobs and work their way up in the field especially when there are people who have no education and start at the same level as them.

I never got a degree before I started and felt rather surprised and agitated when uni grads were complaining they were on the same level as me and when I got further up the ladder new uni grads coming in at entry level thought they knew more than me - which was proven incorrect on numerous occasions.

So this has got me thinking quite a bit about the attitudes of some employers and how I would think if I was an employer. Would I want some smart ass uni grad who wants to be the worlds best Network Engineer in his/her first year on the job or an intelligent hard working person who has a keen interest and has done some self study with maybe A+ and shows a strong willingness to learn and move up.

So I guess the ultimate question is - Is it better to start with or without a degree.

Now I know some people say you need a degree to further your career - blah blah blah but I have never been kept down because of a lack of a degree and I have seen many people in high places in IT without degrees. Maybe management would be the only need but that would be more a business degree.

I am planning on getting a degree shortly, which will be mainly business focused, but only for future management potential and for self interest. I think I am better getting this now after 8 years experience and a number of certs rather than starting out with a degree feeling 'frustrated' and having preconcieved ideas that I would be a manager straight up.

garv221

It is funny you mentioned this. I am going through resumes right now for a new hire. The last position was for a tech support job, part time. I was looking for college students in an IT program who needed experience and would show a good work ethic to get it. A network engineer position opened up. Now I am looking for an experienced person. Certs help and it makes it convenient for me when looking at resumes but experience, job title and responsibility is key for a good paying position. I look at a degree as a tool to get experience and an entry level job. Everyone is striving for experience, once you get it you use it to get high paying jobs and thats when the education part of your resume begins to shift to the bottom or not even appear any more.

strauchr

Do you find that college students have the attitude I described or have things changed in the last 3 or so years with grads these days? I still have interaction with current degree 'snobs' who think they're better. Not sure if new ones coming up are still doing things like this.

EdTheLad

I'm not sure how you can justify your broad generalization, different people have different attitudes. I'm sure some of these so called snobs are better than you,im also sure you're better than alot of them.A degree is a stepping stone to a better career,it shows a persons ability to learn the most boring of material and to stick with it for a required duration.
Alot of people have a negative attitude after obtaining a degree because they feel they deserve something for all the study they have done.
If you were lucky enough to get into the tech field without a degree fair play but less of the bitching about degree students.Maybe you wouldnt have progressed to where you are now if you had studied for a degree because believe me it can be extremely boring and stressful.
Anyway good luck to all degree and non-degree techies!!!

sprkymrk

I was in the same boat (experience and certs - no degree), and was doing pretty well until about 2 years ago when my boss (the Exec VP) showed me something. He said "This is you" - and he held a book over his head while he was seated. He then attempted to stand up, but kept the book at the same level. He hit his head on the book and sat back down. He did this 3-4 times and then told me that he has better plans for me but I was hitting a cieling until I continued my education and got a degree. This wasn't just his sentiments, but as a Government contractor we have certain requirements that have to be met in order to get certain contracts, and employees have to hold certain credentials in order to work at various functions on a government contract. I appreciated his honesty and have been pursuing a BS in Info Sytem Security.

I am still doing well (and by God's grace being paid well) but realize the importance of being well rounded. If you can get experience, certs and degrees go for it. You will always find those that have an attitude ("I have a degree, I should be able to bypass this entry level crap." and even "I've been doing this for 10 years now, and no snot nosed college weenie still wet behind the ears is going to tell me how to do my job.").

I do agree that the generalization is unfair, but I understand you were making an observation based on personal experience and just asking if anyone else has noticed anything similar. I have a time or two, but not in a large percentage of college grads I know.

int80h

Sure, you can learn how to click through wizards on the job, but can you learn differential equations on the job? I don't think so.

Computers use signal processing to measure real world data. Can you learn signal processing without knowing differential equations? I don't think so. What good is a computer that doesn't interact with the real world? What good is IT without computers?

Sure, it only requires a vocational education to babysit some Cisco routers. But the skills you need to design new technologies can only be obtained through classroom learning.

Do you think AMD hired people with highschool + certs to design the Opteron? I don't think so, they hired people with college degrees. Do you think Cisco hired anyone with just certs + experience to write IOS? I don't think so, they hired people with degrees.

If you want to just plug in the Opeteron into a motherboard or type some commands in IOS then you don't need a college degree. If you want to design the next Opteron or write the next IOS then those jobs require a college degree, because you can't get those skills through job experience alone.

Silver Bullet

int80h wrote:

Sure, you can learn how to click through wizards on the job, but can you learn differential equations on the job? I don't think so.

Computers use signal processing to measure real world data. Can you learn signal processing without knowing differential equations? I don't think so. What good is a computer that doesn't interact with the real world? What good is IT without computers?

Sure, it only requires a vocational education to babysit some Cisco routers. But the skills you need to design new technologies can only be obtained through classroom learning.

Do you think AMD hired people with highschool + certs to design the Opteron? I don't think so, they hired people with college degrees. Do you think Cisco hired anyone with just certs + experience to write IOS? I don't think so, they hired people with degrees.

If you want to just plug in the Opeteron into a motherboard or type some commands in IOS then you don't need a college degree. If you want to design the next Opteron or write the next IOS then those jobs require a college degree, because you can't get those skills through job experience alone.

Hmmm......what new technology have you designed and were you a part of the hiring process for the companies you mention?

eurotrash

can you tell me then why experience is always the most important factor in getting hired, if all you learn from experience is "clicking through wizards"?

Fool!

Judd

So I guess the ultimate question is - Is it better to start with or without a degree.

It's a loaded question with many different answers. The cold hard truth in the US is that a majority of employers believe that a degree is required for specific careers in the US, it's part of how our society is structured.

My personal opinion is that a degree is highly recommended for a career within IT. The type of degree depends on which area of IT you wish to pursue. Not every level of IT requires a degree.

The example that was given from the exec bouncing a book off his head was a great example of this, if you want to stay at the help desk, provide desktop support, or run cable you probably won't be required to hold a degree. If you wish to move up within IT, you will probably need to have a 2-year or 4-year degree depending on the job.

It's been my experience within the IT industry that generally, developers usually hold 4-year degrees while administrators can usually just have a 2-year degree. Managers that wish to become directors or executives usually obtain a Masters in the form of an MBA or MIS/IT/Security.

int80h

Silver Bullet wrote:

Hmmm......what new technology have you designed

I write software and design networks for automotive ECUs. If you've ever driven a GM, Chrysler, Ford, or Honda built within the last 5 years you've probably used my software. How do you think your headlamps know if the headlamp switch is turned on? Computer network.

Silver Bullet wrote:

and were you a part of the hiring process for the companies you mention?

I've never worked for AMD or Cisco, but I am involved in the hiring process for my current company and resumes w/o at least a BS get tossed in the trash. We don't have time to teach new hires signal processing, heat transfer theory, or power conversion, so we require at least a BS in engineering from all prospective candidates.

jaeusm

If you want to just plug in the Opeteron into a motherboard or type some commands in IOS then you don't need a college degree. If you want to design the next Opteron or write the next IOS then those jobs require a college degree, because you can't get those skills through job experience alone.

This discussion is about IT jobs. You are describing an engineering job. This is a bad apples-to-oranges comparison, and while interesting, it's irrelevant. If you're working in IT, there's no reason you'll need to know differential equations.

Silver Bullet

int80h wrote:

How do you think your headlamps know if the headlamp switch is turned on? Computer network.

Switch? My GM made vehicle doesn't require me to turn the switch on, it has this neat little feature that turns my headlamps on when it gets dark enough outside. But you should know that since you write the software right? After all...... any idiot can make a light come on by flipping a switch!

int80h wrote:

I've never worked for AMD or Cisco

Well maybe you should limit such comments to events that you have witnessed first hand and not make assumptions.

Silver Bullet

If you think about it, then there is a well known occupation that requires the knowledge of making a light come on by flipping a switch. An Electrician. Which, by the way, can be taught by vocational school. They make decent money too I might add.

I am not trying to knock anyone who has a degree. I fully support and encourage anyone that picks up a book to better their career so they can better provide for their family. In most cases, there is no better place than college to do that. Does that mean that one will not better themselves by doing Self-Study Certifications. Of course not.

I cannot STAND for anyone to attempt to belittle someone else when they are trying to better themselves just because that person does not share the same goals or have the same career path as you.

I really think that you owe this person an apology.......I really think you owe the forum an apology because I have seen some of your other post with this same attitude where you have attempted to belittle them for attempting to better themselves.

int80h

jaeusm wrote:

This discussion is about IT jobs. You are describing an engineering job. This is a bad apples-to-oranges comparison, and while interesting, it's irrelevant. If you're working in IT, there's no reason you'll need to know differential equations.

Since when are computers and networks not considred IT?

Silver Bullet wrote:

Switch? My GM made vehicle doesn't require me to turn the switch on, it has this neat little feature that turns my headlamps on when it gets dark enough outside. But you should know that since you write the software right? After all...... any idiot can make a light come on by flipping a switch!

How does the light sensor know the outside light level? Differential equations. How do the headlights know the value being read by that light sensor? Via computer network. Point proven.

Silver Bullet

int80h wrote:

How does the light sensor know the outside light level? Differential equations. How do the headlights know the value being read by that light sensor? Via computer network. Point proven.

I think the only point you have proven is that you can say the term "Differential Equations" in a forum that focuses on helping others obtain Self-Study Certifications that you so deeply despise.

jaeusm

jaeusm wrote:

This discussion is about IT jobs. You are describing an engineering job. This is a bad apples-to-oranges comparison, and while interesting, it's irrelevant. If you're working in IT, there's no reason you'll need to know differential equations.


Since when are computers and networks not considred IT?

I believe you were orginally using AMD Opteron design as an example. That's quite specific, and is specifically an engineering job. IT and engineering exist in two very distinct realms.

certificationjourney [ban

int80h wrote:

Sure, you can learn how to click through wizards on the job, but can you learn differential equations on the job? I don't think so.

Computers use signal processing to measure real world data. Can you learn signal processing without knowing differential equations? I don't think so. What good is a computer that doesn't interact with the real world? What good is IT without computers?

Sure, it only requires a vocational education to babysit some Cisco routers. But the skills you need to design new technologies can only be obtained through classroom learning.

Do you think AMD hired people with highschool + certs to design the Opteron? I don't think so, they hired people with college degrees. Do you think Cisco hired anyone with just certs + experience to write IOS? I don't think so, they hired people with degrees.

If you want to just plug in the Opeteron into a motherboard or type some commands in IOS then you don't need a college degree. If you want to design the next Opteron or write the next IOS then those jobs require a college degree, because you can't get those skills through job experience alone.

Way to go, fool. keep making yourself look bad.

trick000

Int80h, you remind me of a coworker who has a computer science degree whom nobody likes. As you may or may not know, there are different types of IT jobs. You are talking about programming when you mention differential equations. I on the other hand don't need differential equations when I'm imaging a PC using RIS or when I'm setting up network connectivity for programmers like you. You probably don't have a clue how to make a straightthru or crossover cable do you? What do you do when you suddenly can't login to the domain? Call someone who can calculate equations in which the derivatives of a function appear as variables? Nope, I didn't think so.

Alien

This guy reminds me of a "dude" from some other car forum who on realising they couldn't make a positive contribution to the thread without exercising their snobbish,know it all attitude, decided to blarb about how they programmed crisps...oops, sorry...chips on most cars. I wonder whether its the same dude we're dealing with here because the snobbish attitude is pretty much the same.

strauchr

Well, an interesting debate but not quite was I was looking for.

int80h is an idiot and I wouldn't take anything he says as even remotely worth while. Everyone here, which I am betting are more experience and educated than you are 100% correct. You are talking Programming which is Information Systems (IS) and electronic engineering which is a completely different unrelated field. IT is Information Technology. So theres IT 101 for you.

I also want to state that I was not knocking anyone for getting a degree my point was that this attitude was quite common when I started in IT and still seems to be around today. I think a degree is a good idea but my point is - is it worth getting one BEFORE you start in IT especially if your just going to start doing PC tech or Help Desk work. A degree is definitely worth pursuing at some stage in and IT career I believe.

A little detail on my back ground. I did go to college but not what the US calls college really. Its like a tech college or vocational college after graduating High School. I completed a 2 Diploma of IT (Network Engineering). So I believe I had the correct education to start with. I then got an internship at a major telco doing internal help desk. I worked 3 months for free and learnt on the job. What I missed in earnings would have paid for a degree.

The other people who started on my level who had a degree started getting paid straight away BUT they were not happy starting on the same level as me.

Since then I have come across a lot of degree students and grads who really don't have the first clue on how to change out PC hardware little own deal with people on the phone heaven forbid! But there attitude in general is that they should be starting at a higher level and aren't interested in learning foundations.

I also see a lot of people on these forums who say - I've got a Masters in IT security I am ready to be a security administrator etc.

I do repeat I think a degree is a good idea but when is it right to get it? Can it hurt employment opportunities. Maybe this attitude has faded these days. The only reason I brought up the topic was because I was reminded of someone I worked with once who quit IT after 6 months because that had a CS degree and didn't beliebe he should be Help Desk. I heard he is still on Help Desk now as he gave up trying to be a Network Engineer from the start.

Judd

strauchr wrote:

I do repeat I think a degree is a good idea but when is it right to get it? Can it hurt employment opportunities. Maybe this attitude has faded these days. The only reason I brought up the topic was because I was reminded of someone I worked with once who quit IT after 6 months because that had a CS degree and didn't beliebe he should be Help Desk. I heard he is still on Help Desk now as he gave up trying to be a Network Engineer from the start.

Go back and read my post, as I believe I tried to help you answer this question. Here's a recap, in my opinion that answer is based on the career path you wish to pursue. I've been in the industry for 11+ years, so here's what I've seen transform in a nutshell:

A CS degree used to be the ONLY degree offered within IT and was almost certainly required for everyone working in the computer room. Many of those people are now our bosses so they have adopted that mentality that a CS degree is all-inclusive for IT jobs. As the industry became more segregated and moved away from just having a computer room, leaders began to ask colleges to provide more degrees that are specialized as the technology changed and a few years back the industry began to adopt specialized 2 & 4 year IT degrees. (B.S.I.T degrees, MIS degrees, CIS degrees, A.S.I.T degrees, etc.) Employers are now beginning to understand the value of specialized degrees and are beginning to structure certain jobs accordingly.

So, following the career path of a desktop support analyst would probably require a 2-year degree in microcomputer technology, experience at the help desk, and a promotion to the next highest level of Tier 2-3 support. Will they eventually get to manage a server and break away from support, that varies but in most organizations the answer is no, not without a more specialized education or retraining. This person may get to be a supervisor or manager of desktop support personnel after a number of years but that is probably the limit. They can increase their pay with various approaches such as certifications and specific job expertise.

A similar approach can be taken with many other IT career paths. I believe it's all about the choices we make and our personal goals, if you really want to be a developer then do the research and realize that a CS degree is definitely part of that option. If you want to be a manager, director, CIO then you can look forward to school for about the next 10 years. If you want to be a Network Engineer then specialize your education to meet that requirement.

It's very difficult to change the tire on your car without a spare. It's also very difficult, but not impossible, to follow a dedicated career path in IT without the proper education. Therefore, in my opinion, YES it is beneficial to have a degree or proper credential before you start on a career path, and YES, it can hurt employment opportunities on specific careers.

This turned out to much more than a nutshell but hope it helps…

Munck

In my experience, people with Master degrees tend to start higher up the food chain than people without. Big companies favor people with degrees, that's no secret. If I were to start over, I'll start gettin a degree ASAP, combined with parttime jobs, and certs. As others have mentioned, it's difficult getting past a certain milestone in ones career without a degree.

My 0,02 ct

jim_stasz

Munck wrote:

In my experience, people with Master degrees tend to start higher up the food chain than people without. Big companies favor people with degrees, that's no secret. If I were to start over, I'll start gettin a degree ASAP, combined with parttime jobs, and certs. As others have mentioned, it's difficult getting past a certain milestone in ones career without a degree.

My 0,02 ct

Completely agree. I didn't get my A.S. until I was 40 and even with tons of experience, and now certs, I've about topped out. I would get my degree 1st, and then worry about certs and experience. I think you can get higher without a degree in the IT field than you can in most others career fields but you do eventually max out and will earn less than someone with a degree and the same experience and the same certs.

But, for those working without degrees, all is not lost. Many companies have tuition assistance programs and even taking 1 class a semester will show an employer the willingness to improve. (And sometimes that's all it takes to make it to the next level) I've set the goal to get my B.S. degree by the time I hit 50.

EricO

I've set the goal to get my B.S. degree by the time I hit 50.

I'm younger than you, but my goals are very similar. It's kind of funny, now that I reflect back. I was probably the worlds biggest slacker in high school. Now I am about to finish my associates degree with a 4.0 GPA. I guess it took a short stint in the army to let me know what little value there was in under-achieving.I have a really great job now, but I have been passed over for many managerial jobs because I lack a formal education.

I know alot of people are reffered to as "paper tigers" because they lack experience and know how, but in the IT world every time a regime changes(and that has become pretty often) the HR/Management drones evaluate you on your "paper" criteria before they ever see your face. To echo some earlier sentiments, you can get by without a degree in IT, but it is a hard road and very risky. Every time your company merges or is bought and sold you are more likely to be removed for your lack of a formal education. Certifications do help, but they mark you as more technically adept than professionally qualified.

Oh well, 2 more years and I hope to have have a BS in software engineering, then maybe a Masters.


Btw, employer tuition reimbursement rocks.

Ten9t6

EricO wrote:

I've set the goal to get my B.S. degree by the time I hit 50.

I'm younger than you, but my goals are very similar. It's kind of funny, now that I reflect back. I was probably the worlds biggest slacker in high school. Now I am about to finish my associates degree with a 4.0 GPA. I guess it took a short stint in the army to let me know what little value there was in under-achieving.I have a really great job now, but I have been passed over for many managerial jobs because I lack a formal education.

Btw, employer tuition reimbursement rocks.

So does the GI Bill. Did you take part in that, while you were in? I would also look at programs different states run for the veterans. I know Texas has some great ones......Anyway...Good luck to you.

Kenny

Judd

EricO wrote:

I was probably the worlds biggest slacker in high school. Now I am about to finish my associates degree with a 4.0 GPA. I guess it took a short stint in the army to let me know what little value there was in under-achieving.

Couldn't have said it better myself, I too am a veteran that wised up after my honorable discharge. Took advantage of the GI Bill, got my 4.0, working on my B.S.I.T, and hold a job as a network engineer.

Indeed, hard work pays off. How does the saying go, If I only knew then what I know now... I would already have my education done.

But probably wouldn't have lived in Asia for a year or Europe for 3 years!!

strauchr

I do agree (and previously stated) that a degree is very important to career advancement once your in IT.

I guess a couple of things affect my POV. Firstly entry level jobs are much more competitive these days. Secondly, I don't believe the same importance is not put on degrees in Australia (where I am from) regarding entry level IT jobs. And attitudes of Uni students in Australia are a bit different I think because they believe (in general) they are better than others and they are special.

Still interesting to hear what people had to say

EricO

So does the GI Bill. Did you take part in that, while you were in? I would also look at programs different states run for the veterans. I know Texas has some great ones......Anyway...Good luck to you.

Kenny

I did take part in the GI bill. Unfortunately I waited too late to go back and use it. There is a 10 year time limit from the day you ETS. Right now my employer is footing the bill, and I also have some state grant money coming in. I appreciate the encouragement.

And attitudes of Uni students in Australia are a bit different I think because they believe (in general) they are better than others and they are special.

I have seen several people walk in the door with a chip on their shoulder which was unrelated to their level of formal education. The people with a sense of entitlement are that way because of inadequacy, ignorance or some combination thereof. This is usually cured by a lesson or two in humility, and the lesson can be very fun to watch. As the despair.com poster says, "The downside of being better than everyone else is that people tend to assume you're pretentious."

garv221

A degree is always a plus ( I have one).

int80h wrote:

Do you think Cisco hired anyone with just certs + experience to write IOS? I don't think so, they hired people with degrees.

Who the hell wants to due signal processing in a cube all day? Do I think Cisco hired anyone who just had experience + Certs to write code for their IOS..YES, someone who has epxerience in writing code for IOS..You should just slam your head of your desk.

cairtaker

I'm a father of 3 teens and for the last 6 years I went back to school to get my masters in 1) IT and 2) Business. I live in a remote area and run my own consulting business in the afternoons and evenings. I have been working this year on my certs. We were looking at jobs in the Chicago burbs to move closer to family, but even with the experience I have, it seems you still have to have a connection somewhere to get a decent paying job. I make 45,000 a year working at a terminal for a transportation company and I can't quit to start at the bottom in some company working help desk. I guess I am now considering moving to the south Chicago Sub-burbs and operating my busines there full time. Guess you have to have an angle to get a decent IT job whether you have the skills or not...