Skipping Net+ straight to ICND1?

TechnicalJay

Hey Guys,

I see a lot of people suggest studying for Net+ like you're going to be taking the exam but actually skipping it and then studying for ICND1. Does this make the most sense or is it a money issue?

stunnedsoup

I kind of had a similar question before I began my Cisco Journey.

Here are some past threads where these two are discussed:
http://www.techexams.net/forums/network/73798-ccna-network.html <-- CCNA is mentioned but I think the discussion is cool though.
http://www.techexams.net/forums/ccna-ccent/63034-ccent-vs-network.html

NetworkNewb

There is good information in the Network+ exam for people starting out in networking. Personally I feel alot of the information is just memorizing facts that after you take the test you will most likely not remember and have to look up anyways... And the INCD1 covers basic networking too.

Pair that with the fact that Net+ is not cheap to take, is the reason most people say skip it. But it is beneficial to look over the information on it to get an idea of some of the basics that ICND1 doesn't cover.

TechnicalJay

Is it true ICND1 is pretty much useless and will have to go for your CCNA before anyone recognizes you?

NetworkNewb

INCD1 has a lot of good information, its true ALOT more people will recognize CCNA and will hold a lot more value though.

TechnicalJay

Thanks

Mike R

I am in the same position as you. I'm doing a occupation change though and while I have some technical experience with LAN and WANs I have opted for the N+. I look at it as I would rather get the fundamentals down in N+ (which is built on or review in ICND1) than struggle starting out with the cisco courses. Also the for me the fact that currently I will be moving in a few months and I don't want to get a home lab and then move it was also a factor.

True the N+ test isn't cheap ($285) but for me if I'm going to go through all the work of studying it I plan on getting the cert. Depending on how much you can study I bet most people could knock out the N+ in 4-6 weeks. Also at least for me hopefully it shows the prospective recruiter or HR that I'm willing to put in the effort on my own to learn.

volfkhat

Mike R wrote: »

True the N+ test isn't cheap ($285)...

Save 10% with the Professor Messer voucher :]

networker050184

I don't see any reason for people with CCNA aspirations to get N+ certified unless it's a hard job requirement or something.

TechnicalJay

Thanks for your input. I've decided to study like I will be taking the exam but skip it and study for ICND1

DoubleNNs

It's mostly a money issue.
Additionally, both the Network+ and ICND1 are really useless certs. You probably won't find a recruiter/manager that cares about either. but at least the ICND1 will allow you to put "Cisco" on your resume for keyword searches.
You won't really start getting recognition until you hit CCNA, however.

networker050184

Agreed DoubleNNs. Another reason I'm a proponent of the one exam approach to the CCNA. That and less trips to the testing center the better IMO.

Hondabuff

networker050184 wrote: »

I don't see any reason for people with CCNA aspirations to get N+ certified unless it's a hard job requirement or something.

A person who is looking to break into a network based roll with a CCNA cert will look very foolish when asked in an interview about, Cable lengths, Media Types, MDF vs IDF, Proper cabling, 568A vs 568B. Our last Network Engineer we hired, I was part of the hiring process and turned away over 40 people because they could not answer the basics about Networking. One of my 20 questions was structured like this and was a true story.

Q1: One of my field techs was in MGM Grand in Las Vegas and was connecting the router up in the MDF and ran 1000' of UTP Cat6 "568A at the router and 568B at the controller" up to our Commscope Cellular Controller on the roof in an outdoor enclosure and we where getting packet loss and SNMP trap alarms that where not showing up in our NMS. It was a basic Centurylink DSL bridged modem connected to the router for the monitoring circuit. Where with your experience of networking would you start your trouble shooting and tell me logic behind your steps.

35 of the 40 candidates did not pass the question. Some where CCNA's and one was a CCIE written. The CCIE I think Photo shopped his Cert and had no number to prove it and couldn't verify his employment. For any potential candidate looking to get into Networking, CCNA only looks good on Paper. If you don't know general networking your not going to make it very far in interviews. One of the candidates on the closing questions stated that they studied up for BGP/OSPF and more advanced questions and I asked 20 of the basics. I hired a guy with CCNA Security that had the N+ and answered all 20 questions with logic and facts.

TechnicalJay

Hondabuff wrote: »

A person who is looking to break into a network based roll with a CCNA cert will look very foolish when asked in an interview about, Cable lengths, Media Types, MDF vs IDF, Proper cabling, 568A vs 568B. Our last Network Engineer we hired, I was part of the hiring process and turned away over 40 people because they could not answer the basics about Networking. One of my 20 questions was structured like this and was a true story.

Q1: One of my field techs was in MGM Grand in Las Vegas and was connecting the router up in the MDF and ran 1000' of UTP Cat6 "568A at the router and 568B at the controller" up to our Commscope Cellular Controller on the roof in an outdoor enclosure and we where getting packet loss and SNMP trap alarms that where not showing up in our NMS. It was a basic Centurylink DSL bridged modem connected to the router for the monitoring circuit. Where with your experience of networking would you start your trouble shooting and tell me logic behind your steps.

35 of the 40 candidates did not pass the question. Some where CCNA's and one was a CCIE written. The CCIE I think Photo shopped his Cert and had no number to prove it and couldn't verify his employment. For any potential candidate looking to get into Networking, CCNA only looks good on Paper. If you don't know general networking your not going to make it very far in interviews. One of the candidates on the closing questions stated that they studied up for BGP/OSPF and more advanced questions and I asked 20 of the basics. I hired a guy with CCNA Security that had the N+ and answered all 20 questions with logic and facts.

What would the correct answer be to this question?

networker050184

Hondabuff wrote: »

A person who is looking to break into a network based roll with a CCNA cert will look very foolish when asked in an interview about, Cable lengths, Media Types, MDF vs IDF, Proper cabling, 568A vs 568B. Our last Network Engineer we hired, I was part of the hiring process and turned away over 40 people because they could not answer the basics about Networking. One of my 20 questions was structured like this and was a true story.

Q1: One of my field techs was in MGM Grand in Las Vegas and was connecting the router up in the MDF and ran 1000' of UTP Cat6 "568A at the router and 568B at the controller" up to our Commscope Cellular Controller on the roof in an outdoor enclosure and we where getting packet loss and SNMP trap alarms that where not showing up in our NMS. It was a basic Centurylink DSL bridged modem connected to the router for the monitoring circuit. Where with your experience of networking would you start your trouble shooting and tell me logic behind your steps.

35 of the 40 candidates did not pass the question. Some where CCNA's and one was a CCIE written. The CCIE I think Photo shopped his Cert and had no number to prove it and couldn't verify his employment. For any potential candidate looking to get into Networking, CCNA only looks good on Paper. If you don't know general networking your not going to make it very far in interviews. One of the candidates on the closing questions stated that they studied up for BGP/OSPF and more advanced questions and I asked 20 of the basics. I hired a guy with CCNA Security that had the N+ and answered all 20 questions with logic and facts.

You don't need to spend $300+ on a useless certification to know the answers to those questions. There is a difference between learning the basics and getting a certification.

But yeah, definitely don't hire people based on what certification they have.

Mike R

TechnicalJay wrote: »

What would the correct answer be to this question?

I have an idea but I would love to know the answer as well so I don't look like a idiot ><

Hondabuff

networker050184 wrote: »

You don't need to spend $300+ on a useless certification to know the answers to those questions. There is a difference between learning the basics and getting a certification.

But yeah, definitely don't hire people based on what certification they have.

Getting the Network+ shows a potential employer that the person already knows the basics. I cant assume that just because you say you know the basics that you really do. 35 of 40 people we interviewed including CCNA's didn't know that you cant run copper 1000'. They would go on and on about calling the ISP and verifying the PPPoE settings and using a TDR to test the cable, wrong cable ends and on and on. My boss would just ease his chair back waiting for the responses when I popped that question. Being CCNP certified also I can look back and honestly say that Net+ really cemented in the foundation for learning the higher certifications and gave me a lot of insight about general networking that I other wise would have to work years to obtain. I would bet it would take a tech 5 years of working in the field to gain the amount of knowledge that sitting down for 2 weeks reading the Network+ would give you.

networker050184

Well that's why you ask questions right? You don't assume people with N+ do either right? And again, you could still know all that info without spending the money on the certification. Completely different concepts. You can read those books in two weeks, save yourself some money and take the certification exam that will give you more ROI instead. I don't think anyone would argue that would be the N+.

NetworkNewb

The CCNA OCG goes over the cable types and distances anyways.

pinkiaiii

Hondabuff has a really good point here,for one i wish i started at networking+ or some compTIA certificate just to get the very basics that start ones foundation on networking,either that or gotten ccna material and topics in right order at least 3 months prior to even starting the course to get most basics in OSI/TCP and some simple protocols,subneting,ip classes.

Since majority people i meet in my course especially those who barely know about computers yet doing networking ios now,dream of getting their ccna and landing in some fancy position (just makes me cringe oh,id wish to work for google/facebook etc)

Now that said everyone is different and many people switch careers in life and there are examples where some didn't even know basics about computers couple years later are ccnp and in good companies and funded to progress further-that said its small numbers.

And questions like above id say would be an easy grilling since ccna covers some basics about cable lengths and types,but many people skip easy questions and memorize commands and tests thus getting past ccna,but come real world scenario and you have someone guessing or doing textbook scenarios to answer questions such as above.

For one i troubleshoot most issues with pcs,be it applications or hardware related,thus now doing semester finishing semester 2 i can barely remember half the stuff covered in semester one-main factor is teaching and who does it,most my teachers suck as in they wont go into topics deep enough-like above example i found out more online on cables then in reading material or classes,since simple question as is the cat5 and cat5e or cat6 cable has same wiring scheme people twist their heads not knowing it.

Thus dont know why many presume that ccna is like some holy grail to becoming engineer,since if company is serious id imagine even more tough questions to be asked,and answered in minute or so,otherwise my thoughts are that most companies would look at ccna,but jobs would be tech support on the phone for basic helping customers,or working in teams where you'll probably will make coffee while others work before someone lets you do some configurations let alone on doing whole network for some company.

NetworkNewb

pinkiaiii wrote: »

Hondabuff has a really good point here,for one i wish i started at networking+ or some compTIA certificate just to get the very basics that start ones foundation on networking,either that or gotten ccna material and topics in right order at least 3 months prior to even starting the course to get most basics in OSI/TCP and some simple protocols,subneting,ip classes.

The ICND1 covers all those...

pinkiaiii wrote: »

And questions like above id say would be an easy grilling since ccna covers some basics about cable lengths and types,but many people skip easy questions and memorize commands and tests thus getting past ccna,but come real world scenario and you have someone guessing or doing textbook scenarios to answer questions such as above.

That is why experience is held over certifications... and it is the Company that gives the certification tests' fault for people skipping easy questions?

pinkiaiii wrote: »

Thus dont know why many presume that ccna is like some holy grail to becoming engineer

Could you list another certification that gives a better ROI and helps someone on their way to getting a entry level networking position faster than?

Hondabuff

NetworkNewb wrote: »

The ICND1 covers all those...



That is why experience is held over certifications... and it is the Company that gives the certification tests' fault for people skipping easy questions?



Could you list another certification that gives a better ROI and helps someone on their way to getting a entry level networking position faster than?

I will give you the same advice as I gave the 39 guys I interviewed during the exit interviews. Myself and my team work for a 40 billion dollar a year company and have over $100 million dollars worth of equipment on it. As an Engineer your expected to answer all questions from our 300 field techs and NOC technicians. We expect a core understanding of just not the network but everything that is connected to it. Knowing A+ and Network+ is required for you to perform your duties as one of our employees. A quick return on investment should not be your goal but a deep understanding of the core principles of networking should be. It took me 5 years of being Desktop support and Network Administration before I was able to display my skill set in a manner which companies start seeking me out for employment. I have 20 NOC employees That I would love to promote but they just dont have the basics down yet for me to task them with more advanced stuff. Certifications will accelerate your experience if done the right way.

Networking_Student

The only thing in Net+ that isn't covered in the ICND1 is the wireless information (the level of detail) beyond that the OCG for ICND1 has everything you asked from that interview.

And the first place you'd check is if there are repeaters along the 1000 meters to revamp the data flow, or determine if replacing with fiber is an affordable alternative. If there are repeaters every 100 meters, I would check cable terminations, and ensure all devices are turned on. You can run copper as long of a distance as you want provided you terminate at proper lengths and hook up a repeater. Otherwise it's fiber you need to have.

Given you have a single 1000 meter cable, it's the cable that is the problem and needs to be replaced with fiber and the accounting department needs to be educated as well as the IT team members who were involved with the procurement and even thinking about such a cable and length being installed.

Questions like that make it sound like it's something you've actually dealt with, and respectfully would completely turn me off for wanting to work for your company if that is honestly a situation that's occured at your company.

Networking_Student

Forgot to mention, the otherthing I'd look at,is the fact you have a cross over cable going to a device that shouldn't need a crossover, and instead should use a straight through unless it's ancient technology.

And I am assuming you're talking about a front-end controller with its own dispatcher or a seperate dispatcher going to the router.

Which by the way, if said controller has been around within the last three or so years, you should not be using a cross over cable at all. Because it most likely wont be capable of reworking the packets properly.

Since we are talking about basics anyway....

You have two answers specifically to answer the question, with an additional question:

1. Wrong cable terminations, you need straight through if the controller has been produced in the last four years (most likely)

2. You need to replace the cable with fiber optic cable.

3. Are there repeaters every 100 meters on the copper run? Since it is router to controller and not model to model or an established ISP BGP set up and instead is a company internal WAN it is not out of the question to assuming the 1000 meters of cable is in fact a continuation of not one cable, but multiple cables with repeaters as is common across the largest factory in the world. (Boeing does this)

So from the get go you already set up your interviewees for failure before you even ask the question, and penalize for given 1/2 of the answer but give full credit if they answer the other half but don't provide the information needed to fully analyze the question.

As most of your candidates are assuming the company and its tech team, accounting, and management aren't retarded enough to spend the money, resources, and manpower to install a cable that long without ancillary devices as needed. Which would make it a situation they will never see on the job, unless you're implying it IS something they will see on the job. Then in that case the candidates should look for employment elsewhere because they want a job and work with professionals and not have to babysit or worry about having to babysit even their superiors who allowed such a situation to even be possible.

That question negatively impacts the image of your company to applicants more than you probably realize.

volfkhat

TechnicalJay wrote: »

What would the correct answer be to this question?

Well for one, i'd start with a twisted-pair cable that is "568A" and "568B" on opposite ends.
Never scene that in the field.
lol

Scratch that.
a 1,000 foot twisted-pair cable???
riiiiiight
:]

Networking_Student

volfkhat wrote: »

Well for one, i'd start with a twisted-pair cable that is "568A" and "568B" on opposite ends.
Never scene that in the field.
lol

Scratch that.
a 1,000 foot twisted-pair cable???
riiiiiight
:]

You've never seen a crossover? I find them all the time updating legacy infrastructure.

All it means when a 568A and 568B are on a cable is that it is a crossover between like devices so the equipment knows a networking device and not a end device is connected.

However thanks to autoMDIX you don't have to worry about crossover cables on new devices.

Which btw I already addressed that above as new controllers with built in dispatch will not recognize a crossover cable.

Hondabuff

Networking_Student wrote: »

Forgot to mention, the otherthing I'd look at,is the fact you have a cross over cable going to a device that shouldn't need a crossover, and instead should use a straight through unless it's ancient technology.

And I am assuming you're talking about a front-end controller with its own dispatcher or a seperate dispatcher going to the router.

Which by the way, if said controller has been around within the last three or so years, you should not be using a cross over cable at all. Because it most likely wont be capable of reworking the packets properly.

Since we are talking about basics anyway....

You have two answers specifically to answer the question, with an additional question:

1. Wrong cable terminations, you need straight through if the controller has been produced in the last four years (most likely)

2. You need to replace the cable with fiber optic cable.

3. Are there repeaters every 100 meters on the copper run? Since it is router to controller and not model to model or an established ISP BGP set up and instead is a company internal WAN it is not out of the question to assuming the 1000 meters of cable is in fact a continuation of not one cable, but multiple cables with repeaters as is common across the largest factory in the world. (Boeing does this)

So from the get go you already set up your interviewees for failure before you even ask the question, and penalize for given 1/2 of the answer but give full credit if they answer the other half but don't provide the information needed to fully analyze the question.

As most of your candidates are assuming the company and its tech team, accounting, and management aren't retarded enough to spend the money, resources, and manpower to install a cable that long without ancillary devices as needed. Which would make it a situation they will never see on the job, unless you're implying it IS something they will see on the job. Then in that case the candidates should look for employment elsewhere because they want a job and work with professionals and not have to babysit or worry about having to babysit even their superiors who allowed such a situation to even be possible.

That question negatively impacts the image of your company to applicants more than you probably realize.

The Engineer I hired didn't catch the 1000' copper until I repeated the question. He even admitted he felt dumb for missing it the first time. The cable ends were just a decoy for the main problem. Just a big cross over cable and MDIX will sort it out. If you don't currently work for a large Enterprise, your in for a rude wake up call when you do. We manage over 40000 remote sites and work exclusivley with the big 4 cellular companies. You need to be able to solve problems for people that they didn't even know they had. You wouldn't believe the logistics on getting circuits in some of our locations. We deal with all the ISP providers nationwide and dealing with them will make your head spin. Satellite uplinks, 60Ghz microwave antennas, hurricane proof outdoor enclosures. Some of our sites require Helicopter rides to get into them. 5g Cellular, yep we are testing them now. Video streaming into Indian reservations 20 miles in the Desert. Just because you have not seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The controllers I'm talking about are RF controllers that cellphone towers transmit and receive with. The questions were designed to create discussions of what the problem potentially is and what solutions can be provided to resolve the problem. All the people who did well quoted the text book answer then what they thought the problem could be. We never told any of them if they were right or wrong.

DoubleNNs

Hondabuff wrote: »

We never told any of them if they were right or wrong.

I hate that in interviews.

theodoxa

TechnicalJay wrote: »

Hey Guys, I see a lot of people suggest studying for Net+ like you're going to be taking the exam but actually skipping it and then studying for ICND1. Does this make the most sense or is it a money issue?

Several years ago when they were dropping the lifetime certs, I considered getting Net+, but it costs so much and I felt my existing certs were of equal or greater value. This was even more true once I got my CCNA and later CCNP.

theodoxa

TechnicalJay wrote: »

What would the correct answer be to this question?

The cable is too long. Ethernet over Unshielded Twisted Pair (Copper) is limited to 100 meters. This is covered in the books, but I don't think the exam covers it anymore. The CCNA used to (ca. 2001) cover all of the topics he mentioned (Cabling, MDF and IDF Design Considerations, etc...) or at least they were covered in the NetAcademy.

Hondabuff

theodoxa wrote: »

The cable is too long. Ethernet over Unshielded Twisted Pair (Copper) is limited to 100 meters. This is covered in the books, but I don't think the exam covers it anymore. The CCNA used to (ca. 2001) cover all of the topics he mentioned (Cabling, MDF and IDF Design Considerations, etc...) or at least they were covered in the NetAcademy.

Correct answer was 100 meters or 328 feet. When I talked to our tech overseeing the project, he mention the subcontractor ran cable for us and said they used a whole dam box of cable. That's when I politely asked a box of what, Cat5? There was a long awkward pause. If you ever try and get contract work in Nevada you will know what I mean. The cable run was from our router to the Host controller and the build sheet clearly showed Single mode fiber.